The role of SSPX in the current state of the TLM

  • Thread starter Thread starter Cranch
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Catholic29 said:
Sure, why don’t we. And my answer would be poor catechesis, poor examples, and the onslaught of the secular culture. Nothing Vatican II promulgated, or anything the New Mass suposedly watered down.
Click to expand...
And do not foget the Bishops whom allows and even propagated liturgical abuse

And together with JPII who failed to discipline almost anyone under their collective watch ( other than the SSPX) as heresy, sexual abuse by homsexual priests and lost of Catholic Souls flourished
 
devotus said:
I attend the indult but am VERY THANKFUL to the SSPX…

But it is time to “come home” as they can do much more inside the church than their current position. This also assumes that they are free to continue the tradition of the church.
Click to expand...
 
If it wasn’t for Levebre do you REALLY think that we would have the indult and upcoming universal Indult Mass right now?? Really!!?
Say what you want, but Levebre will be a Saint in time,it may take a long time,but for saving sanity and tradition,he will be a Saint!! And you know it!:eek: 👍
 
elzoro said:
If it wasn’t for Levebre do you REALLY think that we would have the indult and upcoming universal Indult Mass right now?? Really!!?
Say what you want, but Levebre will be a Saint in time,it may take a long time,but for saving sanity and tradition,he will be a Saint!! And you know it!:eek: 👍
Click to expand...
There are some who argue that Archbishop Lefebvre has made the TLM into a kind of “banner” of rejection of Vatican II and the NOM and that this has actually delayed rather than accelerated the broadened use of the TLM. Only God knows for sure…
 
elzoro said:
If it wasn’t for Levebre do you REALLY think that we would have the indult and upcoming universal Indult Mass right now?? Really!!?
:
Click to expand...
No… That is why i am thankful to the SSPX

But they and their 500 Holy Priests can do much more for the Church if they were regularized
 
I actually picked “casts suspicion on the TLM” I’ve known others to be so turned off by the SSPX’s disobediant and arrogant attitude that they now associate the TLM with those feelings.

Heck the first masses I went to in my journey into Catholicism were TLM. I love the TLM and yet the SSPX has made even me leery. So while I think it’s a shame I think that ultimately the SSPX has a lot to answer for both in terms of willfulness and in terms of making themselves stumbling blocks.

Don’t get me wrong I have sympathy for those who champion the TLM but there is a way to do things.
 
elzoro said:
If it wasn’t for Levebre do you REALLY think that we would have the indult and upcoming universal Indult Mass right now?? Really!!?
Say what you want, but Levebre will be a Saint in time,it may take a long time,but for saving sanity and tradition,he will be a Saint!! And you know it!:eek: 👍
Click to expand...
As much as I try to trust in God’s mercy and not judge what I do not know, I have to say this. He died excommunicated. I will not judge where his soul resides, but I will say that I would bet my life on the Church never canonizing him. If you can name someone who was excommunicated, and died before returning into communion with the Church who is now canonized, I would like to hear about them.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
 
Though if the conciliar Church is invalid and heretical, that leaves the SSPXer and Sedevacantist with the invariable “ecclesiological problem” of where the true Catholic Church is.
Click to expand...
If this is true, it leaves all of us with this problem.
 
gorman64 said:
If this is true, it leaves all of us with this problem.
Click to expand...
Indeed,

The Catholic Church effectively vanquished at Vatican II or shortly after. I guess we now are all Protestants with no valid Sacraments available anymore. Unless of course you consider the SSPX hierarchy, or the odd Sede bishop as the defacto Magisterium. But without a valid Pope or valid cardinals, where does that leave the Catholic Church?

All a red herring of course, we do a have a valid Pope in Rome by the name Benedict XVI, with a valid college of cardinals. And your local ordinary is more than likely residing in the major city nearest you, so no ecclesilogical armageddon just yet…
 
Thursday1 said:
As much as I try to trust in God’s mercy and not judge what I do not know, I have to say this. He died excommunicated. I will not judge where his soul resides, but I will say that I would bet my life on the Church never canonizing him. If you can name someone who was excommunicated, and died before returning into communion with the Church who is now canonized, I would like to hear about them.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
Click to expand...
Well, I agree with your assessment of Lefebreve, but really, didn’t Saint Jeanne d’Arc die an excommunicate? I dunno, I’m asking.
 
A wise priest once said to me that within every heresy is a seed or kernel of truth, which the Church, in her human members, has not ennuciated clearly. The heretic then gets a hold of it and blows it out of all proportion and ends up in worse shape than the Church, because the Church has the opportunity to address the issue in a definitive manner. Maybe it’s the same with schism. They hold up a mirror for the Church, true, but they still do it outside the Church (at least the bishops and priests do). Not objectively a good place to be. I think the presence of the TLM will eventually have a beneficial effect on how the NO is celebrated, so I suppose we can thank them for that. That doesn’t make them right, but God can bring great good out of what is objectively bad.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Well, I agree with your assessment of Lefebreve, but really, didn’t Saint Jeanne d’Arc die an excommunicate? I dunno, I’m asking.
Click to expand...
SSPX in France like to use that example, but I think it has a flaw. Saint Jeanne d’Arc was found guilty by an illegally convened court of inquisition, and Lefebreve was declared excommunicated by the pope. Technically, Jeanne had a route of appeal to higher ecclesiastic courts, there is no appeal to a decision by the Roman Pontiff.

So, I’m glad I did find out that a saint had died excommunicated “technically,” however it was possible for this excommunication to be found null.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday

EDIT: Here’s my source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Joan_of_Arc
 
Thursday1 said:
SSPX in France like to use that example, but I think it has a flaw. Saint Jeanne d’Arc was found guilty by an illegally convened court of inquisition, and Lefebreve was declared excommunicated by the pope. Technically, Jeanne had a route of appeal to higher ecclesiastic courts, there is no appeal to a decision by the Roman Pontiff.

So, I’m glad I did find out that a saint had died excommunicated “technically,” however it was possible for this excommunication to be found null.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
Click to expand...
From the short read I just did on this, Joan did appeal to the Pope and the Council of Basel, but her judge refused to let the appeal go through, keeping jurisdiction over the case illegally. So I tend to think that the Church’s finding on the whole case would have formall found her NOT to have been excommunicated.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
From the short read I just did on this, Joan did appeal to the Pope and the Council of Basel, but her judge refused to let the appeal go through, keeping jurisdiction over the case illegally. So I tend to think that the Church’s finding on the whole case would have formall found her NOT to have been excommunicated.
Click to expand...
True, I think it could be viewed much like a marriage being found null. Either the St. Jeanne was excommunicated or she wasn’t, it cannot be that she was excommunicated and then accepted back in to the Church postmortem. Since it was found that jurisdiction was illegally, there never was an excommunication. So I stand by my original bet.

Yours in Christ,
Thursday
 
The Catholic Church effectively vanquished at Vatican II or shortly after.
Click to expand...
Of course, no Catholic says this…it is truly a “red herring”.
 
elzoro said:
If it wasn’t for Levebre do you REALLY think that we would have the indult and upcoming universal Indult Mass right now?? Really!!?
Say what you want, but Levebre will be a Saint in time,it may take a long time,but for saving sanity and tradition,he will be a Saint!! And you know it!:eek: 👍
Click to expand...
Asking whether we would have the TLM misses the point. If what Lefebvre did was wrong (not imprudent, but evil), then the good end of the permission for the TLM cannot justify the wrong means of achieving it. That is why so many who love the TLM still can’t bring themselves to be thankful for his actions. I know SSPXers and sympathizers disagree that what he did was wrong, but that still doesn’t make it sensible to argue for his sanctity just because his actions led to the indult.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top