The Role of the Papacy

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Antonio B in blue:
Originally Posted by Myhrr in black

Just as militant Roman Catholicism threatens the peace and survival of other Christians?

Could you not find a more asinine accusation than this one? At a time when Rome has established ecumenical relations with most of Christianity creating a climate of dialogue, you throw at us this simple piece of propaganda?

Until you understand your history and take responsibility for it you won’t be able to understand Orthodox objections to unity with your Church. Your Church militant actually is militant, it’s blinkered thinking to ignore this if you’re really discussing the role of the papacy.
*I suggest you read the recent history of your Church’s continuing policy of exterminating those you consider heretics and think about the fact that your infallible doctrines on this are still in force and can still be enforced. *
As an example:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=220622&postcount=45
“What difference is there between Rome’s papal claims to divine rule over all the world by sword as in Unam Sanctam and Islam’s claim that those resisting should be killed if they refuse to accomodate themselves, by belief or taxes, to Islamic revelation?”
  1. You misread Unam sanctam. Last time I checked it referred only to Roman Catholicism and you have to understand the historical context from which the document proceeds.*
    **
I didn’t misread it, but you obviously have, the Greeks referred to in it is the Orthodox Church. As a whole it is infallible dogma of your Church’s faith and morals, the claim is that you have divine right to use the sword against heretics.
*
2. The threat of Islam today does not come from “normative” Islam but from militant Islam.*
*
*
Militant Islam is the original Islam.
*
What does any of this has to do with the role of the papacy TODAY? That’s where you are missing the point.*

Antonio :confused:

Be puzzled no longer, this has to do with your papacy’s claims to absolute power and authority over the Church, in place of Christ.
**
For the Orthodox only Christ is the head of the Church and your claims are heretical, i.e. unorthodox Christian doctrine.
*Be reassured, we don’t have any doctrine which demands your extermination…
viduramziu.lietuvos.net/soci…scionybe-en.htm
 
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Myhrr:
Since it is obvious you’re not a Catholic, why are you discussing the role of the papacy in modern times here in this thread rather than opening a thread on how heretical we (Catholic) are in the Non-Catholic forum? See, I’m not going to engage you in an anti-Catholic tirade based on the distortion of history because if I wanted to do that, I would go to forums where such non-sense is common. I will stick to the subject of this thread.

Antonio 😃
 
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RNRobert:
I think the Holy Spirit gives us a Pope to meet the demands of a particular time. For example, in the tumultous era of WWII, a diplomat like Pius XII was probably needed. In today’s Culture of Death, we have Pope John Paul II who is a strong preacher for the Gospel of Life.
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An astute observation; I remember once someone saying that" do you think it was a “pure accident” that Eisenhower, Truman and Churchill were born at the very time in history that Hitler rose to power"? I didn’t think so then, and I hope it continues. However there is a biblical pasage that springs to mind and it concerns the people leaving God and not doing His will, as a result, He caused the prophets to be filled with wrong sayings - I suspect we have to work at keeping the relationship going.
 
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Myhrr:
Just as militant Roman Catholicism threatens the peace and survival of other Christians?

What difference is there between Rome’s papal claims to divine rule over all the world by sword as in Unam Sanctam and Islam’s claim that those resisting should be killed if they refuse to accomodate themselves, by belief or taxes, to Islamic revelation?
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I suppose we could start with the fact that it’s a long while since the 13th Century and since this thread isn’t dealing with that particular part of history - it’s kind of changing the thread a bit perhaps.
 
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rarndt01:
I personally do not pay any attention to what Pope John Paul says or does. I just attend mass and receive the blessing of our Lord at my parish, as do other Catholics who attend. I think more attention is given to Pope John Paul in Rome because that’s where he resides and all the Italians surround him. So he’s like thousands of miles away from us here in America.
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What has Italians surrounding him have to do with anything? (As you may gather, I don’t get it) - the curia is full of people from every nation on earth, not simply Italians.

And as for not paying attention to the Pope, do you treat your employer the same? I mean, you pay attention to your department head, but pay no mind to the management of the firm at all?

I think I must be misunderstanding what you meant here. Come again?
 
'Until you understand your history and take responsibility for it you won’t be able to understand Orthodox objections to unity with your Church. Your Church militant actually is militant, it’s blinkered thinking to ignore this if you’re really discussing the role of the papacy.
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I suggest you read the recent history of your Church’s continuing policy of exterminating those you consider heretics and think about the fact that your infallible doctrines on this are still in force and can still be enforced.
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I think this is totally off thread, but since it’s here, let’s face it the Orthodox have many pages of their history, they’d like to skip over quite quickly,(including a very current one) so do Roman Catholics. Most of them are worthy of their own threads in their own right. And considering the original post really is about looking to a future pope, let’s just return there shall we?
 
Antonio B:
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Since it is obvious you’re not a Catholic, why are you discussing the role of the papacy in modern times here in this thread rather than opening a thread on how heretical we (Catholic) are in the Non-Catholic forum? See, I’m not going to engage you in an anti-Catholic tirade based on the distortion of history because if I wanted to do that, I would go to forums where such non-sense is common. I will stick to the subject of this thread.

Antonio 😃
It’s your Church that is looking for unity with the Orthodox through its Paul VI “dialogue of love”, but if the failure to achieve this so far doesn’t bother you, then no, there’s no point in me being in this discussion.

Sorry to intrude.
 
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Myhrr:
It’s your Church that is looking for unity with the Orthodox through its Paul VI “dialogue of love”, but if the failure to achieve this so far doesn’t bother you, then no, there’s no point in me being in this discussion.

Sorry to intrude.
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You didn’t intrude. You just posted your concerns in the wrong thread. I’ll be happy to discuss your challenges in the Non-Catholic forum.

Antonio :confused:
 
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HagiaSophia:
What has Italians surrounding him have to do with anything? (As you may gather, I don’t get it) - the curia is full of people from every nation on earth, not simply Italians.

And as for not paying attention to the Pope, do you treat your employer the same? I mean, you pay attention to your department head, but pay no mind to the management of the firm at all?

I think I must be misunderstanding what you meant here. Come again?
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And for my reply to him/her. I was called everything from Reagan to Hitler. Of course, I was honored to be compared to Reagan!😃
 
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Calbreese:
The Pope has a particularly special challenge with the Beast of Revelation being unveiled soon.
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HI Calbreese
Please tell me more.
Christ be with you,
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
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RNRobert:
After 9/11, a newspaper columnist asked “Where are the fatwas condemning this?” he pointed out that if a bunch of radical Christians flew a plane into Mecca, Yankee Stadium would not be able to hold all the ministers who would condemn such a perversion of our faith, and that the Pope himself would rend his garments with grief. Yet, where, he asked, are the Muslim clerics who condemn the actions of the terrorists?

From what I understand, most muslim clerics (especially those oversees) preach hatred against the United States. As someone else said, Islam is only a religion of peace in areas where it is a minority.
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I am currently living in Thailand. This is what I believe. Islam is not at peace with Islam, especially in Islamic countries where they can get away with murder and genocide. Islam is split and has bitter infighting and killing. Islamic government leaders are 1) very afraid of speaking against ANY Islamic action as to do so would cause an international uprising by the faction spoken against. 2) very afraid of speaking for the truth as this would be speaking against one of the factions of Islam. 3) very afraid to help another Islamic country ( say Iraq) for fear of igniting a factional war in their own country. Therefore Islamic terrorism is both a source of fear and pride within the islamic general community.
No one could doubt that the teaching is purely evil.
No one could doubt that God made these people
God loves these people and so should we.
But we must hate the sin.
These poor people are subject to evil spirits and are led by them.
God in His mercy has a plan for these people, for all people, which includes you and me.
We need to obey Christ and pray for them, for in our prayers intercession can be granted, and the Spirit is the strength.
Please include the people( not the religion) held captive by evil spirits in your prayers.
Christ be with you,
walk in love,http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG
 
Antonio B:
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You didn’t intrude. You just posted your concerns in the wrong thread. I’ll be happy to discuss your challenges in the Non-Catholic forum.

Antonio :confused:
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I didn’t think it was the wrong thread, you raised the point that the new pope should defy the conventions of the age and denounce militant Islam - I think the new pope should take the militant, and infallibly defined, history of the RCC into account, defying current trends which is to consign this history to ‘history’ as both you and MariaG are doing.

This is the forum “to challenge” Catholicism, to discuss controversial issues etc., the non-Catholic forum is to discuss the others.
 
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HagiaSophia:
An astute observation; I remember once someone saying that" do you think it was a “pure accident” that Eisenhower, Truman and Churchill were born at the very time in history that Hitler rose to power"? I didn’t think so then, and I hope it continues. However there is a biblical pasage that springs to mind and it concerns the people leaving God and not doing His will, as a result, He caused the prophets to be filled with wrong sayings - I suspect we have to work at keeping the relationship going.
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Our priest talked today of St Francis of Assisi. He was a saint for his time. The Church was in turmoil and 100 years later the Franciscans was 75,000 strong and a great force for renewal in the Church. Francis had a burning love for God and the Church. God raises saints and popes from the most unlikely places.
 
I do not know if this is true, but I saw a picture on the Internet where Pope John Paul II was kissing the book of the Koran? Why would a Christian leader be kissing a heathen book? Isn’t this going to far in trying to reach out to other religions of the world? You tell me?

Ron from Ohio
 
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Myhrr:
I didn’t think it was the wrong thread, you raised the point that the new pope should defy the conventions of the age and denounce militant Islam - I think the new pope should take the militant, and infallibly defined, history of the RCC into account, defying current trends which is to consign this history to ‘history’ as both you and MariaG are doing.

This is the forum “to challenge” Catholicism, to discuss controversial issues etc., the non-Catholic forum is to discuss the others.
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First of all, let me apologize if I hurt your feelings. That was not my intention. If I blew it, I’m sorry.
There is no such thing as “an infallibly defined history of the RCC.” The Church teaches infallibly only in two areas, morals and faith, not on every subject under the sun.
Also, the word “Apologetics” literally means “defense.” In this case, the defense of the Catholic faith. Since your thoughts seem to be attack on the faith, I thought your thoughts did not belong in this particular forum. Now, in the Non-Catholic forum, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, etc, can and do have very good exchanges about their differences.

Antonio 🙂
 
Antonio B:
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First of all, let me apologize if I hurt your feelings. That was not my intention. If I blew it, I’m sorry.
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Confused rather than hurt, no apology necessary, but thanks for the thought.
There is no such thing as "an infallibly defined history of the RCC.
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" The Church teaches infallibly only in two areas, morals and faith, not on every subject under the sun.

And this shows up in history, Unam Sanctam can’t be dismissed as a local in-house policy, that’s a denial of your dogma of Infallibility on faith and morals; it’s an example of your Church’s policy based on dogmatic claims. Your Church’s policy on conversion, etc. are seen in your history, Lithuania is a very clear example, conversion by conquest. Islam at least treated converts as equals, your doctrines of militancy didn’t stop at non-believers, but includes treating converts with complete disregard for human decency. If you think this is harsh then read about your Church’s actions against the Serbian Orthodox, one third were driven out from Croatia, one third forcibly converted and one third killed, even some who in fear of these monstrous policies agreed to conversion were killed anyway. Worse, as if there could be worse, is your history is deliberately hidden in the most brutalising of all ways, you make Saints of your murderers as you have done with Josephat and are now in the process of doing with Stepinac and the victims aren’t only those against whom your Church wields its bloody sword, but your own members who are taught a completely different history because of this, manipulated to believe your Church acts on Christian principles when in fact it acts against them. This is deliberate, deceitful manipulation of your Church’s history whose policies are based on actual infallibly defined dogmas and doctrines, have you read how Oat Soda simply can’t believe his Church could act in so evil a way? Why not? Because there is a whole industry in place to hide the truth from him, and the victims and those who still mourne for them are treated as if they are liars because your Church manipulates its history to suit its own purpose, survival at whatever the cost to others. You are a Church militant and your victims are yourselves as much as those like us, the Churches and people against which you do battle. I’d like to see an “infallible” Pope who’d admit to this, and finally rid your Church of its perverse doctrines of war. Christ is the Prince of Peace. Your Popes are not in His place as long as your dogmas and doctrines infallibly teach the opposite.

continued/
 
continued to Antonio B
Also, the word “Apologetics” literally means “defense.” In this case, the defense of the Catholic faith. Since your thoughts seem to be attack on the faith, I thought your thoughts did not belong in this particular forum. Now, in the Non-Catholic forum, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, etc, can and do have very good exchanges about their differences.
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Antonio 🙂

And what are you defending here then if you allow no attack? What you want this place to be is some cosy nursery where you can attack other beliefs and Churches with impunity by a mutual exchange of ammunition, but without any testing from real life! Huh?? try taking your apologetics to an Orthodox board and see how long you survive… 🙂

We’re not Protestants without foundation…

If your apologetics fail against us it’s not our fault.

Nevertheless, here I concede defeat, it’s your thread to do with as you want, but I hope you keep in mind that others have an interest in the qualities of your next Pope. I wish you well.

God be with you always and His love a place of safety and peace, of refuge in all confusion
 
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Myhrr:
continued to Antonio B

And what are you defending here then if you allow no attack? What you want this place to be is some cosy nursery where you can attack other beliefs and Churches with impunity by a mutual exchange of ammunition, but without any testing from real life! Huh?? try taking your apologetics to an Orthodox board and see how long you survive… 🙂

One thing that is characteristic of me is not to attack other people’s faiths. You see, for the last 18 years I’ve been teaching World Religions and although I do not believe what many religious regard as truth, I do not attack those belief systems. Why attack? Why not have a pleasant but forceful excange of ideas without “attacking?” BTW, I would never go into an Orthodox board and attack what they believe. I consider that at least “tacky,” at most, “disrespectful.”

"We’re not Protestants without foundation…

If your apologetics fail against us it’s not our fault."

Did I say at any moment that Protestantism has no foundation? Did I at any time fault anyone for anything?

“Nevertheless, here I concede defeat, it’s your thread to do with as you want, but I hope you keep in mind that others have an interest in the qualities of your next Pope. I wish you well.”

“Defeat,” “attack” why do you use such terms? If you want to inititiate a dialogue with fellow Christians who view Christianity very different from yours perspective, is it wise to antagonize with such words? How are such words conducive to an intelligent dialogue from which two people can learn and enhance their knowledge?

“God be with you always and His love a place of safety and peace, of refuge in all confusion”

Thank you

Antonio 🙂
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