The role of the priest vs Protestant Pastor

[EzraJacob]

Our Eucharist in our eyes is is just as valid as yours and our called and ordained pastors are just as valid as a Catholic priest and Lutheran pastors are just as well educated in Lutheran seminaries as Catholic priest. Don’t give me guff about St. Peter and the Keys. Christ gave the Keys to all the apostles.

So all of the apostles had the exact same standing as Peter?

 

[hn160]

So all of the apostles had the exact same standing as Peter?

My answer is yes.

 

[EzraJacob]

My answer is yes.

But does scripture say all of the Apostles were given the keys, and Jesus told all of the Apostles that what ever they bind on earth will be bonded in Heaven and whatever will be loosen on earth will be loosened in Heaven?

Sorry for the misquoting, I am writing strictly from memory and my memory is not the greatest.

 

[rinnie]

Our Eucharist in our eyes is is just as valid as yours and our called and ordained pastors are just as valid as a Catholic priest and Lutheran pastors are just as well educated in Lutheran seminaries as Catholic priest. Don’t give me guff about St. Peter and the Keys. Christ gave the Keys to all the apostles.

Can you show me that scripture? Jesus said YOU are PETER and to YOU I give the keys to the Kingdom. Now show me where all the Apostels are PETER? By the way it is not guff it is the word of God who said Peter has the keys to the kingdom.

 

[rinnie]

But does scripture say all of the Apostles were given the keys, and Jesus told all of the Apostles that what ever they bind on earth will be bonded in Heaven and whatever will be loosen on earth will be loosened in Heaven?

Sorry for the misquoting, I am writing strictly from memory and my memory is not the greatest.

Jesus gave all the the Apostles the right to bind and loose, that is to forgive sin in his name.

But Jesus gave Peter SEPARATELY the keys to the kingdom. The Holder of the Keys goes hand in hand with the O.T. The Apostles knew this teaching well.

The Holder of the keys of the O.T was always the Prime Minister, the leader. Which is what Christ made Peter.

Please show me scripture where ALL of the Apostles hold the keys to the Kingdom. If you are correct you can show that or show us where it was ever taught in Sacred Tradition.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Our Eucharist in our eyes is is just as valid as yours and our called and ordained pastors are just as valid as a Catholic priest and Lutheran pastors are just as well educated in Lutheran seminaries as Catholic priest. Don’t give me guff about St. Peter and the Keys. Christ gave the Keys to all the apostles.

In your eyes maybe. but it is not the Truth. St Paul warned the people of God to avoid those who preach not the Truth. who teach falsehood about God. There is but one pure and Holy Faith which was given to his people. anyone teaching anything out of his own accord, does not have authority from God. I am not impressed by certain people on ecumenism who says certaing things to please those outside the CC.

Dont be ignorant about this. Catholics priests are not priests because they go to a seminar, they are priests because they are rightly ordained. seminars dont ordain men to the priesthood. they dont make themselves priests. St Pauls says that no one can make themselves priests.

 

[rinnie]

The Bishops have no authority on their own.

In Isa,22:14-22 The House of David gives the key to his Servant Elakim. In Bible Tradition he who holds the keys carries Authority as successor or Prime Minister,

The other Bishops have the permission to bind and loose but thier authority must rest in their communion with Rome (Peter, today known as the Pope).

That is why you see to date that the Bishops cannot do anything on their own without the Pope.

 

[rinnie]

In your eyes maybe. but it is not the Truth. St Paul warned the people of God to avoid those who preach not the Truth. who teach falsehood about God. There is but one pure and Holy Faith which was given to his people. anyone teaching anything out of his own accord, does not have authority from God. I am not impressed by certain people on ecumenism who says certaing things to please those outside the CC.

Dont be ignorant about this. Catholics priests are not priests because they go to a seminar, they are priests because they are rightly ordained. seminars dont ordain men to the priesthood. they dont make themselves priests. St Pauls says that no one can make themselves priests.

Correct. The gospel tells us be careful of who you lay your hands on. The laying of hands is passed on from the Apostles. All Priests must have the laying of hand of Apostolic Authority. We call this Holy Orders.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Can you show me that scripture? Jesus said YOU are PETER and to YOU I give the keys to the Kingdom. Now show me where all the Apostels are PETER? By the way it is not guff it is the word of God who said Peter has the keys to the kingdom.

There is a reason why he said that. they have to change the Word of God to fit their beliefs.
St Paul warned us to avoid those who teach a different doctrine. we have been disobedient and are now paying for our disobedience.

 

[JonNC]

Do you dissagree wiht what the pope said: “Eucharist in the lutherans is not valid.” it is not the same as in the CC. only a priest can exercise the minister of Sacrifice. you dont have priesthood.

You didn’t answer the question.

Do you disagree with the Catholic Bishops who wrote this?

Quote:
If the actions of Lutheran pastors can be described by Catholics as “sacred actions” that “can truly engender a life of grace,” if communities served by such ministers give “access to that communion in which is salvation,” and if at a eucharist at which a Lutheran pastor presides is to be found “the salvation-granting presence of the Lord,” then Lutheran churches cannot be said simply to lack the ministry given to the church by Christ and the Spirit.

Do you disagree with the Catholic Cardinal who wrote this?

Quote:
I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.(166)

Answer my questions, then I’ll answer yours.

Jon

 

[wisdomseeker]

Correct. The gospel tells us be careful of who you lay your hands on. The laying of hands is passed on from the Apostles. All Priests must have the laying of hand of Apostolic Authority. We call this Holy Orders.

Exactly. but they have taking upon themselves claims that only one Church has it and it was given by God alone. St Paul and St Peter had to deal wiht this sort of thing in their times and dealt with those people accordling. today, some leaders of the Church afraid of losing friendships with enemies have bowed down to certain false beliefs and have not stand up for the Truth leading some to believe which is not True.

 

[wisdomseeker]

You didn’t answer the question.

Do you disagree with the Catholic Bishops who wrote this?

Quote:
If the actions of Lutheran pastors can be described by Catholics as “sacred actions” that “can truly engender a life of grace,” if communities served by such ministers give “access to that communion in which is salvation,” and if at a eucharist at which a Lutheran pastor presides is to be found “the salvation-granting presence of the Lord,” then Lutheran churches cannot be said simply to lack the ministry given to the church by Christ and the Spirit.

Do you disagree with the Catholic Cardinal who wrote this?

Quote:
I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.(166)

Answer my questions, then I’ll answer yours.

Jon

I dont know what they are saying here. the same way you misenterpret Scriptures, you also misenterpret what bishops say. any way, bishops alone cannot affirm things without the pope approval. few bishops much less. the holy father and cardinals and bishops have criticized the ecumeniacs. I dont know what bishop you are talking about either.

 

[JonNC]

I dont know what they are saying here. the same way you misenterpret Scriptures, you also misenterpret what bishops say. any way, bishops alone cannot affirm things without the pope approval. few bishops much less. the holy father and cardinals and bishops have criticized the ecumeniacs. I dont know what bishop you are talking about either.

I didn’t interpret what the Cardinal or the US bishops said. I simply posted them and asked if you agree with them or not. The context of what they are saying is in the link - in the USCCB website, btw. The Cardinal’s quote, found in the document, comes from a letter to a Lutheran bishop friend of the Cardinal’s. The context can be found in the book, Pilgrim Fellowship of Faith, by Cardinal Ratinger.

You are welcome to read them.

But, oddly enough, I accept your answer. While the Cardinal and the bishops statements are, in context quite clear, I have no misconception that they are, somehow, denying the teaching of the Catholic Church regarding the validity of our clergy or sacraments.
And,by the way, the Pope is an ecumenist. He is credited by Lutherans and Catholics alike for saving the JDDJ!

You are not bound to agree with them because they are not infallible statements, but they do state rather clearly a POV that seems to differ from yours. That you are unwilling to say so is perplexing.

As promised, my answer to your question is, I respectfully disagree with Catholic teaching regarding the validity of our priesthood and sacrament, just like, I’m sure, you disagree with those orthodox who deny the validity of yours. And while we would accept with thanksgiving if Rome did accept the validity of ours, we accept both yours and theirs, however, regardless of the lack of reciprocity.

Jon

 

[EzraJacob]

Jesus gave all the the Apostles the right to bind and loose, that is to forgive sin in his name.

But Jesus gave Peter SEPARATELY the keys to the kingdom. The Holder of the Keys goes hand in hand with the O.T. The Apostles knew this teaching well.

The Holder of the keys of the O.T was always the Prime Minister, the leader. Which is what Christ made Peter.

Please show me scripture where ALL of the Apostles hold the keys to the Kingdom. If you are correct you can show that or show us where it was ever taught in Sacred Tradition.

Hey dont get mad at me. It was not I who said all of the Apostles were given the keys to the Kingdom, so all of the Apostles were equal to Peter. Go back and look.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I didn’t interpret what the Cardinal or the US bishops said. I simply posted them and asked if you agree with them or not. The context of what they are saying is in the link - in the USCCB website, btw. The Cardinal’s quote, found in the document, comes from a letter to a Lutheran bishop friend of the Cardinal’s. The context can be found in the book, Pilgrim Fellowship of Faith, by Cardinal Ratinger.

You are welcome to read them.

But, oddly enough, I accept your answer. While the Cardinal and the bishops statements are, in context quite clear, I have no misconception that they are, somehow, denying the teaching of the Catholic Church regarding the validity of our clergy or sacraments.
And,by the way, the Pope is an ecumenist. He is credited by Lutherans and Catholics alike for saving the JDDJ!

You are not bound to agree with them because they are not infallible statements, but they do state rather clearly a POV that seems to differ from yours. That you are unwilling to say so is perplexing.

As promised, my answer to your question is, I respectfully disagree with Catholic teaching regarding the validity of our priesthood and sacrament, just like, I’m sure, you disagree with those orthodox who deny the validity of yours. And while we would accept with thanksgiving if Rome did accept the validity of ours, we accept both yours and theirs, however, regardless of the lack of reciprocity.

Jon

You accept the validity of the CC? where did you get this authority? you have no authority over the CC. but the way, those are not my opinions, it is the teachings of the Holy Church of God.

those outside the CC have no authority over the Church. where did you get such idea? you have no valid order. God only gave authority to one holy Church. those who left her have no authority from Christ. Our Lord was clear when He said, "if he doesnt listen to the Church, treat him as a tax collector. this teach still valid to this day, and forever. this is a command from our Lord, the CC has no authority to change this, otherwise we will be punished for disobedience.

Just imagine if teh CC has bowed down to every heresy throughout her life that arose during the course.

 

[JonNC]

You accept the validity of the CC? where did you get this authority? you have no authority over the CC. but the way, those are not my opinions, it is the teachings of the Holy Church of God.

those outside the CC have no authority over the Church. where did you get such idea? you have no valid order. God only gave authority to one holy Church. those who left her have no authority from Christ. Our Lord was clear when He said, "if he doesnt listen to the Church, treat him as a tax collector. this teach still valid to this day, and forever. this is a command from our Lord, the CC has no authority to change this, otherwise we will be punished for disobedience.

Just imagine if teh CC has bowed down to every heresy throughout her life that arose during the course.

Such a pleasant reply.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[rinnie]

Hey dont get mad at me. It was not I who said all of the Apostles were given the keys to the Kingdom, so all of the Apostles were equal to Peter. Go back and look.

My bad!

 

[rinnie]

Such a pleasant reply.

Thanks,
Jon

Now Jon I am not an expert on this subject. But this is what I thought, I thought that SOME Lutheran Churchs could be traced back to Apostolic Succession but not all?

Somehow because they all do not have the same teaching of the Eucharist or something like that. Forgvie me for my ignorance on this.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

A priest has two primary functions – to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and to forgive sins. These two functions were given to the Apostles on Holy Thursday (the Mass) and in the Upper Room (Absolution). Anything a priest does apart from this is not essential, he may have a flock of his own in a parish or he may be a monk or a hermit, it does not matter. What matters is that he is ordained to offer the Sacrifice and to forgive sins.

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!

The definition of a priest is one who offers sacrifice. A Protestant pastor preaches and shepherds. A priest preaches and shepherds. Anyone can minister. A Protestant cannot offer the sacrifice.

“On the Lord’s own day [Sunday], assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks [the Mass, Eucharist]; but first confess your sins [Confession, absolution], so that your sacrifice may be pure” The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (Didache), 14.l, written earlier than some New Testament writings. (emphasis mine)

Jim Dandy

 

[JonNC]

Now Jon I am not an expert on this subject. But this is what I thought, I thought that SOME Lutheran Churchs could be traced back to Apostolic Succession but not all?

Some Lutheran Churches - in Scandinavia - maintained AS. The ones in Germany did not, in the sense of bishop ordination. The bishops refused to ordain pastors for the evangelical (not the American meaning) churches. They instead relied on the historic practice of presbyter ordination.

Somehow because they all do not have the same teaching of the Eucharist or something like that. Forgvie me for my ignorance on this.

If they are Lutheran, they accept the Augsburg Confession and the Lutheran Confessions, which teach the real presence.

Jon