The Role of the State in Social Justice Issues

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I feel very confused. Let me tell you why. The Catholic Church is about the conversion of hearts. God and Jesus are about the conversion of hearts. In fact, instead of God establishing His kingdom in an earthly way, with Jesus overthrowing and kicking out Roman rule and solving every element of poverty around Him, He established God’s kingdom by calling people to repentance and love of neighbor. It seems clear to me, the only way things improve for the human race is by cooperating with God (by free will) to have such a heart and follow the teachings of Christ. Of course these teachings call us to have concern for social justice and care for the poor without question.

But Jesus told the rich young man to sell his things and give the money to the poor. He did not make him. Compelling people to do something not by their own accord morally is not the same thing as people doing it because they want to, because they have had a conversion of heart. One way builds community. The other way builds hostility.

I am despairing that I have run across so many Catholics who think the answer to social justice issues is to be very politically active in expanding the government’s role in addressing them. I recently heard a nun unload on Paul Ryan on subsidiarity and solidarity. Surely the austerity issues in Europe, and our own rising debt tell us that there is something inherently flawed with putting so much faith in the state. I recently saw an article that said the California governor was holding public education hostage, threatening to end school three weeks early if taxes were not increased. What a slippery slope. And then we get into bed with government in trying to address these social disparities, and we act shocked and horrified when the HHS mandate comes out. It seems evident that the conversion of people’s hearts is what will address social justice issues the best. This is a serious thing to consider, because instead of people being so concerned about politics (in the social justice realm), perhaps we need to be more considered with evangelizing to those that need to hear the Word of God.

I do believe the government has a role in addressing systemic issues that contribute to poverty though. Any thoughts on why so many Catholics think if you are not pro-government that you are not following the teachings on social justice?
 
I do believe the government has a role in addressing systemic issues that contribute to poverty though. Any thoughts on why so many Catholics think if you are not pro-government that you are not following the teachings on social justice?
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In my experience, folks who are defensive and accusatory of boiling down to what amounts calling you an anarchist usually have some selfish reason for defending the government position.

I offer the following 3 possibilities:
  1. They are on the government doll. Could be a government job or a welfare check or something in-between
  2. They have to keep up appearances. Their athiest/agnostic fallen-away Christian friends could probably say “Yeah, he/she’s Catholic, but he/she also supports the democratic party, so I guess that’s good enough for me”.
  3. They do not fundamentally understand how our government works.
Pointing these things, of course, leads to things such as anger and the CAF fan favorite finger-pointer: being “uncharitable”.

The Gospel seems clear to me that being concerned about helping the poor does not entail worrying about what the neighbor does with their possessions beyond fraternal correction, which is an act of charity as well.

Jesus did not go to Rome demanding that Caesar tax and spend. He worked directly on an individual basis and told people to give without using the force of government to take from others. In fact, He only said to give to the government what is due to the government.

That individualism is the cornerstone of the Constitution of this Republic, and it’s high time that people understood it.
 
That individualism is the cornerstone of the Constitution of this Republic, and it’s high time that people understood it.
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i understand that the Constitution isn’t Church teaching. and that individualism isn’t one of the virtues.
 
JaneBennet said:
I feel very confused. Let me tell you why. The Catholic Church is about the conversion of hearts. God and Jesus are about the conversion of hearts. In fact, instead of God establishing His kingdom in an earthly way, with Jesus overthrowing and kicking out Roman rule and solving every element of poverty around Him, He established God’s kingdom by calling people to repentance and love of neighbor. It seems clear to me, the only way things improve for the human race is by cooperating with God (by free will) to have such a heart and follow the teachings of Christ. Of course these teachings call us to have concern for social justice and care for the poor without question.

But Jesus told the rich young man to sell his things and give the money to the poor. He did not make him. Compelling people to do something not by their own accord morally is not the same thing as people doing it because they want to, because they have had a conversion of heart. One way builds community. The other way builds hostility.

I am despairing that I have run across so many Catholics who think the answer to social justice issues is to be very politically active in expanding the government’s role in addressing them. I recently heard a nun unload on Paul Ryan on subsidiarity and solidarity. Surely the austerity issues in Europe, and our own rising debt tell us that there is something inherently flawed with putting so much faith in the state. I recently saw an article that said the California governor was holding public education hostage, threatening to end school three weeks early if taxes were not increased. What a slippery slope. And then we get into bed with government in trying to address these social disparities, and we act shocked and horrified when the HHS mandate comes out. It seems evident that the conversion of people’s hearts is what will address social justice issues the best. This is a serious thing to consider, because instead of people being so concerned about politics (in the social justice realm), perhaps we need to be more considered with evangelizing to those that need to hear the Word of God.

I do believe the government has a role in addressing systemic issues that contribute to poverty though. Any thoughts on why so many Catholics think if you are not pro-government that you are not following the teachings on social justice?
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In addtion to what has already been said, I might add that government growing ever larger is not something that most people notice on a daily basis. It just creeps up on you. So does the fact that the demographic underpinnings of government social programs are crumbling–and a lot of that began with the widespread acceptance of contraception and the sexual revolution. No one paid much attention to the nation’s debt, but now it is at 16 trillion and growing unsustainably.

Sometimes we just have to step back and say whoa!, we can’t keep this up! It won’t work!
 
I want my charity dollars to go to the Catholic Church where works of Mercy are performed in the name of Christ. I do not want my Charity dollars ripped from me via Taxes for 'Social Justice that is administered by the Government, whom in turn uses such funds to create more secular Atheists.:eek:

Quite simple really. :cool:

Those that advocate Social Justice via the Government need to learn to spend their own money and not inflict their perspective on the rest of the Nation.
 
JaneBennet said:
I feel very confused. Let me tell you why. The Catholic Church is about the conversion of hearts. God and Jesus are about the conversion of hearts. In fact, instead of God establishing His kingdom in an earthly way, with Jesus overthrowing and kicking out Roman rule and solving every element of poverty around Him, He established God’s kingdom by calling people to repentance and love of neighbor. It seems clear to me, the only way things improve for the human race is by cooperating with God (by free will) to have such a heart and follow the teachings of Christ. Of course these teachings call us to have concern for social justice and care for the poor without question.

But Jesus told the rich young man to sell his things and give the money to the poor. He did not make him. Compelling people to do something not by their own accord morally is not the same thing as people doing it because they want to, because they have had a conversion of heart. One way builds community. The other way builds hostility.

I am despairing that I have run across so many Catholics who think the answer to social justice issues is to be very politically active in expanding the government’s role in addressing them. I recently heard a nun unload on Paul Ryan on subsidiarity and solidarity. Surely the austerity issues in Europe, and our own rising debt tell us that there is something inherently flawed with putting so much faith in the state. I recently saw an article that said the California governor was holding public education hostage, threatening to end school three weeks early if taxes were not increased. What a slippery slope. And then we get into bed with government in trying to address these social disparities, and we act shocked and horrified when the HHS mandate comes out. It seems evident that the conversion of people’s hearts is what will address social justice issues the best. This is a serious thing to consider, because instead of people being so concerned about politics (in the social justice realm), perhaps we need to be more considered with evangelizing to those that need to hear the Word of God.

I do believe the government has a role in addressing systemic issues that contribute to poverty though.** Any thoughts on why so many Catholics think if you are not pro-government that you are not following the teachings on social justice?**
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Because social justice was hijacked by Liberation theologians. The government plays a role, but it isn’t the quarterback of addressing social justice. 😦
 
I would support what the OP was saying/implying if the OP was consistent. Jesus didn’t tell gov’t to point a gun at any citizens/Catholics, or tell people to use gov’t cooersion to accomplish anything. I find it hyppocritical for people to support some gov’t actions (using force to accomplish certain goals) and then claiming it’s bad to use gov’t to accomplish other goals (stating cooersion is bad as the reason). Either your for cooersion (as it gov’t employing people with guns to foce people to pay tax) or your not. If one person is for gov’t using cooersion to accomplish one goal, and not another, and another person is for gov’t using cooersion to accomplish the 2nd goal and not the 1st, and another person is for gov’t to use cooersion to accomplish a 3rd goal but not the 1st and 2nd, etc… the matter of the rightness or wrongness of forcing people to do things against their will is never going to be sorted out. We will continue as we are, with different groups of people in favor of gov’t using cooersion and force to accomplish their own pet projects and being against gov’t using cooersion and force to accomplish other people’s pet projects. So IMO it then becomes obvious that as a society people are for gov’t using cooersion/force to accomplish things, they are just in disagreement about the things are. I believe this invalidates a person objecting to gov’t using cooersion to accomplish any specific thing, if they are for gov’t using cooersion or force to accomplish other things.
 
JaneBennet said:
I feel very confused. Let me tell you why. The Catholic Church is about the conversion of hearts. God and Jesus are about the conversion of hearts. In fact, instead of God establishing His kingdom in an earthly way, with Jesus overthrowing and kicking out Roman rule and solving every element of poverty around Him, He established God’s kingdom by calling people to repentance and love of neighbor. It seems clear to me, the only way things improve for the human race is by cooperating with God (by free will) to have such a heart and follow the teachings of Christ. Of course these teachings call us to have concern for social justice and care for the poor without question.

But Jesus told the rich young man to sell his things and give the money to the poor. He did not make him. Compelling people to do something not by their own accord morally is not the same thing as people doing it because they want to, because they have had a conversion of heart. One way builds community. The other way builds hostility.

I am despairing that I have run across so many Catholics who think the answer to social justice issues is to be very politically active in expanding the government’s role in addressing them. I recently heard a nun unload on Paul Ryan on subsidiarity and solidarity. Surely the austerity issues in Europe, and our own rising debt tell us that there is something inherently flawed with putting so much faith in the state. I recently saw an article that said the California governor was holding public education hostage, threatening to end school three weeks early if taxes were not increased. What a slippery slope. And then we get into bed with government in trying to address these social disparities, and we act shocked and horrified when the HHS mandate comes out. It seems evident that the conversion of people’s hearts is what will address social justice issues the best. This is a serious thing to consider, because instead of people being so concerned about politics (in the social justice realm), perhaps we need to be more considered with evangelizing to those that need to hear the Word of God.

I do believe the government has a role in addressing systemic issues that contribute to poverty though. Any thoughts on why so many Catholics think if you are not pro-government that you are not following the teachings on social justice?
Click to expand...
well for one, in nearly all instances of catholic and eventually christian charities cost less and are nearly always more effective than the government.
Shalom
God Bless
 
The Catholic Church teaches that the government is to ensure that social justice is accomplished. There is room for a wide range of action within that.

Government is an authority constituted *by God. *Having a government is part of human nature-- in my foolish youth I worked with officially non-hierarchical organizations… believe me, leadership was there, but because it was officially not there, any issues that came up could not be addressed. We tend towards hierarchy because God made us that way.

And it is true that one of the points of government is to protect the citizens, which sometimes requires the use of force. And it is also true that one of the points of government is to ensure social justice, which *also *sometimes requires the use of force if people are recalcitrant.

However, the issue Jane brings up is very interesting; it is one that has concerned me also. Is it right to simply force people to do X so that SJ is accomplished, or should we also be considering people’s hearts?

The *underpinning *of government is to do what all of us are supposed to do: to help us attain Heaven. Our individual end is to know, love, and serve God in this world so as to be happy with him in the next. WRT our neighbors, our job is help all those around us to attain Heaven.

And so with the government: the government’s most important task is to help us attain Heaven.

And sometimes this means applying a bit of force–I heard a story about St Augustine the other day. He was against applying any law against the Donatists, believing that they should have a conversion of heart. But things got so bad that the government made a law against them. Later, one of the ex-Donatists told St Augustine how grateful he was for the law, he had been a Donatist mostly because of his friends, but when the law came in, he followed it and had had a change of heart.

However, the government must also leave us free enough to have that conversion…

One of the main problems we have in the West is that our governments are totally secular and so don’t even take into account the idea of helping their citizens attain Heaven, much less make that their first priority. That often messes with our thinking as well.
 
I believe the government is incapable of effectively addressing most social justice issues, therefore they should not be in charge of charity in any way. At best, the government can use force to stop others from violating their rights, but in terms of providing goods and services that is best left to private organizations.

When you allow the government to co-op things that are important you shouldn’t complain when they mess up because unlike a legitimate charity, you can’t withdraw your funding to the government without getting shot.
 
JIB said:
I believe the government is incapable of effectively addressing most social justice issues, therefore they should not be in charge of charity in any way. At best, the government can use force to stop others from violating their rights, but in terms of providing goods and services that is best left to private organizations.

When you allow the government to co-op things that are important you shouldn’t complain when they mess up because unlike a legitimate charity, you can’t withdraw your funding to the government without getting shot.
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The ‘problem’ with your agrument (if you consider this to be a problem) is that by taking this position you are basically saying that you shouldn’t complain about things like the gov’t and suppporting abortions and forcing taxpayers to fund them if you are for gov’t forcing people to pay for other certain things you happen to be in favor of.

I am in agreement with you with respect to the second paragraph. I am against the use of force. I’m not sure what your view on this is, but I am against the use of force, the initiation of force, hense I am against gov’t. I am against gov’t forcing people to do things that I am against, as well as the things that I am for. Most people IMO are selective when it comes to what they see gov’t’s role to be (and in ways that far exceed using force to violating our rights). I’m not sure if you would agree with me on that but IMO the vast majority of citizens wouldn’t define gov’t role so narrowly as that.

God Bless,
Bill
 
Here’s a book review which in itself quickly encapsulates a bit about how we in the US moved into our current state. I found it very illuminating and am looking forward to reading the whole book, but this article is very informative and gives some explanation of what is going on.
 
Generally speaking, I’m not fond of “big government”. But show me anyone that is truly pushing this agenda. But, if you knew what I know first handed, you’d definitily thank GOD for government that limit the abuse of say, unscrupulous developers that try to get away with serious infractions. The same is true about bulding codes and law enforcement, not to mention fire departments.

On the national level, we’re speaking about “entitlments” Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, WIC, and others Im’ missing. What about the VA? So what do we do with veterans suffering from disabilities related to active duty injuries? Should we throw them out too?

Government is actually good in theory. It should protect its citizens. It should avoid blowing money into the four corners of the earth. But it’s those private sector businesses that depend on government waste that keep it going. The big businessmen in corporate America actually have a hand in it too. The issues are really a balancing issue…“How do we cut corners for our best interest?” No one wants to admit this is true. BIg business wants to squeeze out the little guys so that they can get the biggest piece of the pie.

Now, social programs aren’t very impressive to me. Government should consider subsidizing the Catholic missions, as it has in the past, and opt out of trying to micromanage it. That’s my 2 cents.
 
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