The role of women in the church

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Limosa said:
I’m afraid no one alive could construe my witness as either simple or childlike! 😃 But God calls women to far more than that. As per Pope Francis’s homily, the women at the tomb are being honored as passionate believers, joyful disciples, as “following him and communicating his face,” and as stubborn and insistent as they bring the extraordinary news to the other disciples. There’s quite a backbone in there!

They don’t call Mary Magdalen “apostola apostolorum” (apostle to the apostles) for nothing.
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👍
 
Mrs_Sally said:
During The Year of the Priest, my daughter and I enrolled in a program called “Spiritual Motherhood”. It is a very simple program to encourage prayer for priests.

Here is the document about it: usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/vocations/parents/upload/spiritual-maternity-congregation-fo-clergy.pdf

A short daily prayer for priests (or others) is well within the capabilities of almost any woman or girl. I do think that there is something very specific about the love shown by a woman (female) that is different than that shown by a man, a difference in kind not necessarily intensity, but it can be noticed even between young children.
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Thanks so much for that Mrs Sally.

There really is so much more to being a woman than strictly speaking, motherhood.
Womanhood is so much more than that alone.

Like you said, it’s the different love shown.
 
Marie5890 said:
Remember, not all women are mothers, however. 🙂
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Yes but all women can mother. Aunts are a wonderful examples so are nuns and sisters.

All women can say yes to life and yes to the needs of children.
 
This is a combo of two posts from another thread. It’s what I’m thinking about what Pope Francis said about the role of women in the Church:

"On the surface of it I, like you and some others, would love to hear Francis loudly and clearly re-state all of the othodox beliefs, and “bring the thunder” so to speak. We want to hear it because it would be re-assuring for us personally, and it would also (we think) be good for the Church.

But here’s my point. I think we can all agree that so far Francis has been excellent at emphasizing the centrality of Christ crucified as our Savior. We’ve all encoutered situations where a Priest is uncomfortably vague about Christ, maybe just referring to “goodness” or “religion”. We wouldn’t like this and would want him to speak strongly about the uniqueness and centrality of Christ. Since Francis has been great about this, we don’t really think about this issue too much because we’re happy with it.

But, in all of Francis’ strong references to Christ he has never said anything to effect of “don’t believe in Mohammed”, or “don’t believe in Buddha”. Why doesn’t this bother us? Because it would be unnecessary, and strangely defensive. His job is to present people with the Truth, not to run around undercutting every non-truth out there in the world.

It’s the same with what he said today. Everything he said is strongly orthodox about the wonderful role of women in the Church. That fact that he didn’t slam heterodoxy should not be a concern. It’s not his job to think of every heterodox idea out there about women and shoot them all down. He is to present what is True (which he did), not seek out an argument against non-truth (which he didn’t).

While it would be personally gratifying to hear him bring that thunder, it would not be an effective form of evangelization, and it’s not really what he’s there to do.

I have to ask myself if part of why I want to hear the thunder is to revel in the feeling that my “enemies” are “defeated” (which would not be a very Christian response). Rather, I should be content that Francis, using more patience and love than I have, is strongly presenting the Truth to the world, and not worry so much about whether the non-truths have be smited “enough”.

If I was the Pope and I was approached by a women’s ordination group, I would probably feel threatened, react with impatience and anger, and end up getting into an argument where I tried to shoot down their positon and make them understand the Truth.

If Jesus had somehow been approached by a women’s ordination group, I think He would respond with infinite love and patience, seeing them with eyes of mercy so to speak. He wouldn’t attack or argue with them, He would present them with the Truth in the most loving way possible in order to convert their hearts through love and mercy, not to “defeat” them.

I think Pope Francis is (fortunately) much closer to the Jesus side of this spectrum than to my side. I think he will respond to these kinds issues with much more patience and mercy than I would. Because of my own faults of impatience and anger, this will probably be a frustrating thing for me becasue I will want him to “lay down the law” but he will respond with love, patience and kindness.

The people out there who abuse the Church and Church teaching are very frustrating for us, but think of how frustrating it must have been for the Apostles to watch Jesus be abused, yet He let these things happen out of infinite mercy and love. I think Francis will respond to people who hate the Church with only love and mercy, and though that might be frustrating for me as a sinner, I also know that ultimately it’s right thing to do."
 
Thanks McCall!

It occurred to me after I responded to your other post (as I was getting dinner on the stove. ;)) that those women who call for ordination, etc. etc. are confusing their desire for love with a desire for power.

I imagine that they don’t know how to ask for the love and attention (respect) of the Church that they crave. So because they don’t know who to ask, they ask wrongly.

Reading back through the pamphlet on spiritual motherhood, I was so struck by the awesome love the women who prayed showed for the Church. And the responsibility that the Sisters and the young sick woman took for upholding the virtue and devoutness of the priests they prayed for.

Unfortunately our society in general does not give value to the person who works behind the scenes and especially not to “mere” prayer. Can you imagine the power that could be unleashed if those calling for women’s ordination would instead become committed “spiritual mothers” for priests? We could easily see towns like Lu all over the US! :highprayer: 😃
 
HelenRose said:
Yes but all women can mother. Aunts are a wonderful examples so are nuns and sisters.

All women can say yes to life and yes to the needs of children.
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Even that is not true. Many women have medical conditions that would keep their intellect at a lower level. 🙂

Those have have Downs or a variety of other situations (ie autism).

To be very accurate, they are not girls, they are grown women who have a medical condition that effect their intellect or social skills.

We can not marginalize these women.
 
Mrs_Sally said:
Those women who call for ordination, etc. etc. are confusing their desire for love with a desire for power.

I imagine that they don’t know how to ask for the love and attention (respect) of the Church that they crave. So because they don’t know who to ask, they ask wrongly.
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Very well said, I think this probably applies to most of the rest of us as well, though in different ways. I know I fall into the trap of wanting “my side” (people who want what I want) to “win” (have more power). Its very hard not to.

Pope Francis has really made me see this in myself lately. I have found myself looking at things he has done, like not moving into the Papal apartments and washing the feet, and basically thinking “that’s a great, loving, Christ like thing he’s doing, but I wish he wouldn’t do it because the liberal crowd will like it”. As time goes on I’m slowly feeling more comfortable with him and I think/hope he’s doing the right things in the right ways; even if it’s a little frustratuing for me 🙂
 
McCall1981 said:
Very well said, I think this probably applies to most of the rest of us as well, though in different ways. I know I fall into the trap of wanting “my side” (people who want what I want) to “win” (have more power). Its very hard not to.

Pope Francis has really made me see this in myself lately. I have found myself looking at things he has done, like not moving into the Papal apartments and washing the feet, and basically thinking “that’s a great, loving, Christ like thing he’s doing, but I wish he wouldn’t do it because the liberal crowd will like it”. As time goes on I’m slowly feeling more comfortable with him and I think/hope he’s doing the right things in the right ways; even if it’s a little frustratuing for me 🙂
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You know how Pope Francis has touched me ?

His focus is “discipleship”…and that has nothing to do with gender…nothing…

We are all called and invited to be disciples, and it has nothing, nothing, nothing, to do with gender. Nothing.
 
I do not think the words in the Pope’s audience or the encylical marginalize any women.

Even women with low intellect or other medical conditions are still capable of loving and feeling maternal.

As a young teen (middle school age) I visited a ward (hospital) for women as you describe. This was not in the US. The situation was not alternative housing as you might see in the US or Canada, but more like an asylum. It was a good facility nontheless.

Many of the women had dolls that they carried and cradled. They had never been mothers, but the staff explained that they understood what it meant to be a mother and they wanted to have that experience of loving and caring for someone as a mother does.

That visit made a huge impression on me! I later went back with several dolls to give as gifts.

Pope John Paul’s work on the Theology of the Body and his encylical teach that femininity is a unique gift. Yes, individual women have their own strengths and some are more or less “maternal”. And not every woman is called or capable of being a mother. However, God’s design for women still includes that unique capacity to love in a maternal way that is part of being female.
 
Mrs_Sally said:
Many of the women had dolls that they carried and cradled. They had never been mothers, but the staff explained that they understood what it meant to be a mother and they wanted to have that experience of loving and caring for someone as a mother does.
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And I think many of us know women who forgo the dolls in favor of trucks!!!

I know I always did.

Womanhood is a vast and expansive expression of humanity. 😃
 
I absolutely agree that discipleship has nothing to do with gender. That women and men, girls and boys are all called to be disciples. But again, we are not all called to do the same tasks or do them in the same way.

In this quote from the Wednesday audience, Pope Francis starts talking about mothers leading their children to Christ, but then expands it to all women. However, he still says that women lead others to Christ through love.

I infer (and I understand if others do not) that the love he is speaking of, is that unique matenal love that is part of every woman whether she is a mother or not.
This is beautiful, and this is the mission of women, of mothers and women, to give witness to their children and grandchildren that Christ is Risen! Mothers go forward with this witness! What matters to God is our heart, if we are open to Him, if we are like trusting children. But this also leads us to reflect on how in the Church and in the journey of faith, women have had and still have a special role in opening doors to the Lord, in following him and communicating his face, because the eyes of faith always need the simple and profound look of love.
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Marie5890 said:
And I think many of us know women who forgo the dolls in favor of trucks!!!

I know I always did.

Womanhood is a vast and expansive expression of humanity. 😃
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Yeah, I was a play in the dirt girl too. But not with trucks. 🙂 My own children (girl and boy) prefered the toy kitchen to anything else. 😉
 
McCall1981 said:
Very well said, I think this probably applies to most of the rest of us as well, though in different ways. I know I fall into the trap of wanting “my side” (people who want what I want) to “win” (have more power). Its very hard not to.

Pope Francis has really made me see this in myself lately. ** I have found myself looking at things he has done, like not moving into the Papal apartments and washing the feet, and basically thinking “that’s a great, loving, Christ like thing he’s doing, but I wish he wouldn’t do it because the liberal crowd will like it”. As time goes on I’m slowly feeling more comfortable with him and I think/hope he’s doing the right things in the right ways; even if it’s a little frustratuing for me :)**
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McCall,

I read many of your posts over the past few weeks and it is seems that you are struggling with Pope Francis because he is NOT Benedict or JPII.

I do not know your age (momma told me never to ask a lady that question), but I will share mine with yours. During my lifetime, Francis is my sixth pope. You learn over time to realize that the individual popes may change, and while one respects and obeys the pope, there can be a natural attraction to one pope’s personality than to others; much like being more comfortable with certain relatives than others.

I only mention this because I have discussions with some people who only have knowledge of our last two popes or converted during Benedict’s papacy and are having a difficulty with Pope Francis or see him as a potential threat to orthodoxy. For them it is like a parent is gone and the step-parent has moved in.

the other point – maybe you should not be afraid that “liberal” Catholics will like what Pope Francis does. Perhaps, just perhaps, their attraction to him will open their hearts to re-look at what the Church teaches. That is a part of the New Evangelization our previous pope spoke about. Maybe that is amore productive point of view to take.

But perhaps you don’t want those people back :D. But, I don’t believe that.
 
Mrs_Sally said:
Yeah, I was a play in the dirt girl too. But not with trucks. 🙂 My own children (girl and boy) prefered the toy kitchen to anything else. 😉
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LOL 😃

Womanhood or manhood in the end of have nothing to do with stereotypical expectations.
 
coachdennis said:
McCall,

I read many of your posts over the past few weeks and it is seems that you are struggling with Pope Francis because he is NOT Benedict or JPII.

I do not know your age (momma told me never to ask a lady that question), but I will share mine with yours. During my lifetime, Francis is my sixth pope. You learn over time to realize that the individual popes may change, and while one respects and obeys the pope, there can be a natural attraction to one pope’s personality than to others; much like being more comfortable with certain relatives than others.

I only mention this because I have discussions with some people who only have knowledge of our last two popes or converted during Benedict’s papacy and are having a difficulty with Pope Francis or see him as a potential threat to orthodoxy. For them it is like a parent is gone and the step-parent has moved in.

the other point – maybe you should not be afraid that “liberal” Catholics will like what Pope Francis does. Perhaps, just perhaps, their attraction to him will open their hearts to re-look at what the Church teaches. That is a part of the New Evangelization our previous pope spoke about. Maybe that is amore productive point of view to take.

But perhaps you don’t want those people back :D. But, I don’t believe that.
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Oh of course I want them back 🙂 When I say I dont want him to do those things because the “other side” will like it, I dont really mean it, I realize how ridiculous that feeling is. Its a flaw he’s sort of exposed in me, and Im glad he did, its something to work on.

I have seen him as a threat to orthodoxy, though Im slowly coming around. He is only my third Pope (Im 31), and the first two were sort of givens (JP II because for me he had always been there, and Benedict because we knew so much about him beforehand).
 
Mrs_Sally said:
(snipped to address this specific point)
It occurred to me after I responded to your other post (as I was getting dinner on the stove. ;)) that those women who call for ordination, etc. etc. are confusing their desire for love with a desire for power.

I imagine that they don’t know how to ask for the love and attention (respect) of the Church that they crave. So because they don’t know who to ask, they ask wrongly.
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Mrs. Sally,
boy did you hit the nail on the head!! 👍

As a woman who was a member of the Women’s Ordination Conference at one point in my life I can say that this is exactly true!!

I won’t bore all of you with the details, but it was the realization that most of the women I knew in “the movement” were in it for the power and their own glory and not for the glory of God made me really start to look at things differently.
As I started to question my beliefs, I was fortunate to meet a priest who was newly ordained, but older (he was ordained just after his 40th birthday). When he shared his “vocation story” with me, the one thing that stuck in my mind was how often he said “this is not what I wanted, but what God wanted for me.” That was something I never heard from the women, and it was nothing that ever came out of my mouth either. It was always, I want.

I have since left the WOC, have totally embraced Chruch teaching on the ordination of women and now do volunteer work with my diocese’s vocation department.

It’s amazing how the Holy Spirit will work in your life when you let it, and when you put God’s wants ahead of your own!! 😃
 
Wow, thanks for sharing that!

I hear the same things in vocation stories - sometimes even that the person was trying to run from the call! And this is true both for men and women that I know.

Unfortunately society doesn’t value anyone or any work that’s not on the top of the heap. And because the priest is visible, he’s considered “top.” Br. JR has talked about this in relation to the vocation of Brother as well.

So any work or role a woman could have in the Church (especially as a consecrated religious) is considered way beneath notice - teach! nurse! just sit around and pray!! :rolleyes:

The mistakes comes in thinking that because we do not understand and value those roles, that the Church doesn’t value them either, so it is, in essence dissing women to say that those are the only jobs she can have.

But if you go back to JPII’s encylical, to the Spiritual Motherhood program, to Francis’ audience, they are really saying how important those roles are and how valuable to the life of the Church.
 
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