The Roman Catholic Church IS a denomination

[Thing]

The question is; Is the Catholic Church a denomination according to the standard dictionary definition.

Maybe the first thing to do is to define ‘The Catholic Church’ using the same dictionary. It is necessary to know what something is before one can classify it further.

So, using the Oxford English dictionary, we see that the definition of the Catholic Church is;
Roman Catholic Church: Those churches in communion with the Church of Rome, recognizing the leadership of the pope. The word ‘Catholic’ means ‘universal’, and thus the addition of ‘Roman’ seems to some contradictory, since they regard the Church under the successor of Peter (see PETRINE TEXTS) as the one, universal Church

The last bit I coloured red as this is essentially how the Catholic Church views itself and is thus the definition of the Catholic church.

The Oxford dictionary definition of the word ‘denomination’ is this;
A branch of a church of a religion.

Since the definition of the Catholic Church is ‘The One Universal Church’ according to the dictionary, then it follows that the One Universal Church cannot also be ‘a branch of a church or a religion’.
The Church considers itself to be ‘One’.
Denominations are ‘Many’.
=> The Catholic Church is not a denomination.
According to the dictionary, at least.

 

[Bennie_P]

So you disagree with the dictionary also.

It depends on who’s dictionary you use.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=33029

Follow the link to see what I mean.

 

[Bear_Claw]

It most decidedly IS a Catholic forum. It is the Catholic Answers Forums section of www.catholic.com! The Non-Catholic religion sub-froum is NOT a place for Protestants to vent frustrations about the Holy Catholic Church, and expect we Catholics to just sit back and not defend her! It is a place for reasoned discussion about Non-Catholic religions, and how they compare with Catholicism. You seem to think that it is a safehaven for anti-Catholic hogwash! You can go to one of your Prtestant websites to spread misinformation about Catholicism and go unchallenged. Here you will be corrected.

So, there is no understanding, no tolerance, no discussion. It’s hard line Catholics shutting down anyone who don’t believe as they do. Coming after us hard, ruthless and unyielding.
The one place where we can try to find common ground, try to establish some starting point. But no.
You know what this is?
Religion Fundamentalism.

Hogwash? When we are trying to dig out a common starting point for discussions and our attempts are labeled as anti-catholic hogwash.
Close-minded irrational, hard line religions fanatics.

This place makes me sick. This whole religion is starting to make me sick. You guys, what happened to mercy, understanding, and compassion, etc???
It’s your way or the highway. Constantly being corrected, no understanding, only forceful corrections, and then, when we are trying to establish a starting point for communication, we are being labeled as anti-catholic.
Sickening.

 

[Bear_Claw]

Lacking a tangible link with the evidence from your vantage and commencement point, of course you would end up with such a mishmash of your shortcomings as above.

Lacking tangible evidence? My dear fellow, that’s what I’ve been trying to say. You have none. There is no tangible evidence to establish that your pope speaks infallibly. They tell the faithful to believe in infallibility because they say so. They use their authority to establish and to prove their authority.
Tangible evidence?
Show me how your pope can speak infallibly.
Show me how the bible is inspired.
Even the lineage of popes. Have you read some of the character that have been popes? My goodness man, if those are some of the people that the holy spirit chose, then something is wrong.
Have any of you ever sat down and wondered why? Nope, you believe because someone tells you to believe.
It’s sad.
And to then take it to the next level and treat anyone who differ even remotely with contempt, judgment and disdain is sickening.

I have had it.

We can trace the lineage of Popes back to Peter and through him, Christ! Christ spoke of The One True God as His Father, whilst clearly displaying the attributes that defined Him as being The Same God He speaks of. Rising from the dead is no mean feat.

I say again. Read the biographies of some of the popes elected by the spirit. How much murder, adultery, depict, lies, embezzlement, etc have they been the cause of?

Can you prove any of the thing you speak of? Or is the bible and tradition your only means of calling authority on anything?
If these are your only two tools, then I suggest that you find something that you can display as hard evidence, because hearsay will not convince me. Hearsay to believe in something because some tells me to, because some told him to, but they have no evidence, except something that’s been taught to them, etc…
Can you not see that you are putting your life and your sanity into the hands of others that have no proof for asking you to believe what you believe?

Yeah, I’m sure you think that.

 

[Bear_Claw]

I’ve had it. I thought that by coming here we could establish some dialogue, but no.

I’m leaving you and your religion behind.

It’s people like you who drive us away from religion.
Good bye.

 

[Graubo3]

Unfortunately there will never be a resolution here. The Catholic will say that they are the original church, all other churches, including the Orthodox and reformed churches are Denominations, and so, the term “Denominations” don’t apply to them.
The Orthodox Church would say the same thing from their point of view.
Protestants see everyone as a denomination.
So, not only is the correct word use necessary for ecumenical communication, but all parties have to agree on the terms used.
This will never happen here.

The Catholics are too stubborn to back down. It’s in their nature, it’s in their teachings. They are being taught to believe (on pain of death and hell) that their church is the one true church, the original church. They don’t even suspect, and can’t concede the point that the Catholic church is also flawed, because it’s run by men who think they hear the voice of God. Yup, just like the others. They don’t realize that other churches that they label denominations also use apostolic succession i.e. Orthodox and old Catholic. They don’t seem to realize why the protestant revolution happened. Things were flawed. They just blamed the people and excommunicated them.

The problem is that it’s so drilled into them and they are being threatened with death if they deviate, that no matter what proof or evidence you produce to refute this with them, they’ll just keep on repeating their stance over and over and nothing will change that.
The basic fundamental principle of their church is being threatened by this and they will not back down.

They believe that they are the original church, but they forget that even in scriptural times, there were others chasing out demons in Jesus’ name and even Jesus Himself didn’t condemn them…when His disciples wanted to. Ring a bell?

They don’t see that so much time has passed since Jesus walked the earth and men is so involved that their denomination is also with flaws like the others are. But no, they’ll not see this. They can’t see this. If they do realize this, they commit a sin.

It’s sad really, because the rift between Christian denominations is getting bigger because of things like this.

And yes, I know I’m going to get it for this post!

And you wonder why people won’t dialogue with you?

And its people like you that persecute and pervert the Truth that only reinforces to me that what the Church teaches is correct. Isn’t that quite ironic? You didn’t know you were performing a service to the Catholic Church. If it is people that instruct the ignorant (there, is a term for the secular dictionary thumpers) that is turning you away from religion, I would have to question your amount of personal freedom. Who or what are you a slave to? One thing (among many) I love about the Catholic faith is that we do have the freedom to question everything**** contrary to what many non-Catholics believe about us. But, we also have that freedom and are obligated to search for truthful answers which may entail that dreaded 4 letter word: Work**** on our part.
Bear_Claw’s second sentence tells me much about him/her that really made the rest of the post irrelevant and quite hilarious. In post #50 I asked Bear_Claw for evidence that the Catholic Church refers to the Orthodox Church as a denomination. If you could have done that I would have dialogued. But you didn’t. I am still waiting, but not holding my breath. Apparently Bear_Claw is going on tour with REM. “That’s him/her in the corner of losing his/her religion”. Or maybe he/she is busy with their own denomination in their basement or garage. I guess it is a good thing you have ‘claws’ because your missing your teeth in your arguments.

I do miss you Bear_Claw, please come back!

Peace, Graubo

 

[Bear_Claw]

I would have to question your amount of personal freedom. Who or what are you a slave to?

I’m not a slave, for the first time since quitting religion, but it’s reinforcing my decisions, for sure!

One thing (among many) I love about the Catholic faith is that we do have the freedom to question everything**** contrary to what many non-Catholics believe about us.

You are right, you do have that freedom, but it’s limited, because as soon as you read something that’s not catholic, or put you in danger of your faith, your leaders tell you that it’s sinful. You are being threatened by your leaders when you read something that might saw you even a little.
Now that’s not freedom at all! I’m sorry you see this as freedom 

Bear_Claw’s second sentence tells me much about him/her that really made the rest of the post irrelevant and quite hilarious.

In post #50 I asked Bear_Claw for evidence that the Catholic Church refers to the Orthodox Church as a denomination. If you could have done that I would have dialogued. But you didn’t. I am still waiting, but not holding my breath.

Actually, what you said was that you were trying to find it…Here it is

“I am trying to find any Catholic source that refers to the Orthodox Church as a “denomination”. Can you help? Hey maybe we can start a new thread? Or maybe a denomination in your garage or basement? Waddya Say?”

The post was made with sarcasm, and it was only imploring my help, it was nowhere near a challenge. In fact all you did was tell me what you are searching for. I hope you get your answer, because if you do, then it would maybe go far as to improve communication on this thread and this board in general. But then you’ll probably have to read “sinful” texts or something, so you’ll probably only limit your research work to something published or approved by the catholic church. That’s circular for you!

I guess it is a good thing you have ‘claws’ because your missing your teeth in your arguments.

As per the above, I think I just pulled your teeth out, actually.

I do miss you Bear_Claw, please come back!

Uhu, I’m sure you do.

 

[Bear_Claw]

Dammit, I got roped into posting again!

D’oh!
Bye.

 

[Graubo3]

Dammit, I got roped into posting again!

D’oh!
Bye.

Bear_Claw,

Yes, it was sarcasm. Why would I search for something that does not exist? You made the statement that the Catholic Church refers to the Orthodox Church as a denomination. Can you prove your claim? Will you prove your claim? Are you a man/woman that will stand behind your word?

Remember, God alone can “damn”.
Is that roping as in a form of slavery? Nobody twisted your arm. BILL PICK isn’t yelling at you (I see he is under review though and I hope it is not for his supposed yelling). May God bless BILL PICK.

Peace, Graubo

 

[Bear_Claw]

Bear_Claw,

Yes, it was sarcasm. Why would I search for something that does not exist? You made the statement that the Catholic Church refers to the Orthodox Church as a denomination. Can you prove your claim? Will you prove your claim? Are you a man/woman that will stand behind your word?

Fine, I’ll bite one lat time.

Notwithstanding the countless other sources out there to cite this, you asked for Catholic sources.

Here are some posts that are from Catholic websites.
You’ll probably find some comeback here too, we all have seen your razor-sharp sarcasm, but these are folks that are Catholic, so the term is in use out there.

**
Here we go:**The Orthodox Church is closer to the Catholic faith than any other denomination. – From davidmacd.com/catholic/orthodox/index.htm (Many people use this site as Catholic based info)

We Catholics should be humble enough to recognize that our communities are composed in great part of people who were previously part of the Orthodox denomination. – From custodia.org/spip.php?article4773 **(By Franciscan monks in the holy Land)

You’ll like this one**:

Three (or Four) Main Branches: Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant (and Anglican, “Anglo-Catholic”; half-way between Catholic & Protestant) – From catholic-resources.org/Courses/Christianity-Branches.htm

*The satanic cult of Seventh-day Adventists believe that all Protestant and **Orthodox denominations *are following or will follow the Catholic Church to Hell. From - theotokos.co.za/adventism/sdahate.html

*In conclusion your letter proposes a model for the Ukrainian Orthodox church and other Orthodox denominations, as well as all of the Orthodox and Catholic world, to renew unity which in substance is classically ‘union.’ *– From byzcath.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2510&Itemid=49

Here’s a good one, the Orthodox see Catholics as a denomination:]“Metropolitan Nikodim of Leningrad dreamed of uniting the catholic church with the Orthodox Church, even though the** catholic denomination **did not need this and was not ready to unite with us.” From orthodoxengland.org.uk/sampson2.htm

And with that I bow out.

 

[Graubo3]

Fine, I’ll bite one lat time.

Notwithstanding the countless other sources out there to cite this, you asked for Catholic sources.

Here are some posts that are from Catholic websites.
You’ll probably find some comeback here too, we all have seen your razor-sharp sarcasm, but these are folks that are Catholic, so the term is in use out there.

And with that I bow out.

Thanks Bear_Claw, you have given me quite a bit of interesting things to look at.

Here is one for you:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html

I prefer to go to the horse’s mouth so to speak. Thanks for not sending me to a bunch of anti-Catholic blog sites as sources.

Don’t trip on your tie or scarf bowing too low.

Peace, Graubo

 

[jake23]

I was once of protestant belief that studied at Liberty University to become a pastor and to my suprise the more I learned about the original languages, history, and there expressions of biblical text the more I looked toward the Catholic faith. Most of the protestant interpretaions are off from what the oringinal text was expressing. The Catholic Church is not a denomination becasue for one it was the first church of Christ but most importantly it existed before the bible. The bible came from the church not the church came from the bible so in that alone we are not a denomination because we are the universal church. The Bible was inspired through God but was materialized through the church, not to mention that most of the new testament was written by catholic bishops such as Paul. The catholic church is apostolic and cannot be compared to religiouse sects. This is not to take away from other beliefs, but only to make clear weither you are catholic are not the it is fact that Catholic faith is different. Existed before written scripture which was written by catholics. Luther who created Protestant belief says himself that we have the catholic church to thank for the bible! God Bless!

 

[Soutane]

Since I am getting tired of quoting the dictionary every time this statement is made:

So unless you want to say that either your are not a religious organization or that you are not united, then you are a denomination. And if you want to claim that either the above are not true, then Protestants do not have denominations either.

So don’t argue with us any more. Take your dispute to the dictionary.

Since when does a dictionary have sole claim to the Truth or is deemed infallible?The Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ -ALL others excepting the Orthodox have denominated FROM her as a result of the various heresies of MEN.
To claim otherwise is silly and self-delusional.We don’t have to argue,nor are we arguing-you are.The truth is self evident.

What is this,Sola Dictionarius?

 

[jake23]

Temper temper ay! Don’t be a hoser ay!

 

[Soutane]

Temper temper ay! Don’t be a hoser ay!

That’s actually quite funny. However I’m proud to be a hoser unlike Bob and Doug who were merely playing to an American audience.Oh,and by the way the uniquely Canadian use of the interjection,eh is spelled E H not A Y.Just bringing you up to date on some arcane Canadiana,eh?

The day that I get riled over some ludicrous assertion made by a separated brother is the day I turn in my toque,sled and dog-team.Annoyed,irritated,vexed,yes.Never angry-just a weary thought of “here we go again”;some follower of a faith started by a man telling Catholics that our Church was not created by the incarnate living God,Jesus Christ.
In other words a pathetic attempt to rewrite 2000 years of history- an assertion based upon nothing less than envy and wishful thinking.The old,"my goodness,if they’re right that means we’re wrong"syndrome.

 

[jake23]

That’s actually quite funny. However I’m proud to be a hoser unlike Bob and Doug who were merely playing to an American audience.Oh,and by the way the uniquely Canadian use of the interjection,eh is spelled E H not A Y.Just bringing you up to date on some arcane Canadiana,eh?

The day that I get riled over some ludicrous assertion made by a separated brother is the day I turn in my toque,sled and dog-team.Annoyed,irritated,vexed,yes.Never angry-just a weary thought of “here we go again”;some follower of a faith started by a man telling Catholics that our Church was not created by the incarnate living God,Jesus Christ.
In other words a pathetic attempt to rewrite 2000 years of history- an assertion based upon nothing less than envy and wishful thinking.The old,"my goodness,if they’re right that means we’re wrong"syndrome.

well said!

 

[soccermom]

The Roman Catholic Church is not a denomination!!! Remember the four marks of the the Church are:

1. One
2. Holy
3. Catholic
4. Apostolic

Pope John Paul II said the Roman Rite and the Orthodox Rite comprise the Church: the right and left lung so to speak. Denominations did not happen until the protestand revolt as another person previously mentioned 1500 years past Christ’s founding His Church although heresies have cropped up for centuries.

Read David Currie’s book “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic” (title?) - it’s fascinating! Among other things he discusses the early Church and the great saints & martyrs that rose up to challenge them. Currie discusses the 5 Bishops (Patriarchs) of: Rome, Jerusalem, Alexandria and the other 2 (Constantinople and ??). Anyway, the Bishop of Rome was considered to have the last word & held the keys, he was ***the ***Prime Minister. An early Pope came to a deadlock with St. Polycarp over an issue - Nisan 14 & Passover I think (even though St. Polycarp was trained by an Apostle), St. Polycarp recognized that the Pope had the last word. Every February we honor this great saint of the Church with his own feast day!

The Bishop of Rome wears the shoes of the fisherman, the ring of Peter, has the authority passed to him from Christ Himself. He is the Prime Minister with the keys to the kingdom (Tim Staples has a great tape set on that & Dr. Scott Hahn talks about this www.stpaulcenter.com & you can read more about the connections in the OT perhaps I or II Samuel to St Peter in the NT).

The Church is NOT a Denomination and it does make a difference!

 

[firstmode]

The Catholic Church is a Denomination to the ONE HOLY APOSTOLIC CHURCH - The Orthodox Church, Which continues the true Hierarchy of all the Apostles having the keys given to them by Jesus. The Catholic Church is in Schism to the the true historical ancient church that started in Acts, the Orthodox Church.

 

[firstmode]

The Catholic Church is a Denomination to the ONE HOLY APOSTOLIC CHURCH - The Orthodox Church, Which continues the true Hierarchy of all the Apostles having the keys given to them by Jesus. The Catholic Church is in Schism to the the true historical ancient church that started in Acts, the Orthodox Church.

They also have the true Creed, as developed at Nicea

 

[Deconi]

The Catholic Church is a Denomination to the ONE HOLY APOSTOLIC CHURCH - The Orthodox Church, Which continues the true Hierarchy of all the Apostles having the keys given to them by Jesus. The Catholic Church is in Schism to the the true historical ancient church that started in Acts, the Orthodox Church.

You’re probably one of those ex-protestants who joined the Orthodox Church because your pride would not allow you to consider the Catholic Church.

You can tell by the gargantuan stupidity of your claim. It is still steeped in non-Catholic drivel.

BOTH the Orthodox and Catholic Church HAVE Apostolic succession. Both are Holy. But only ONE has a point of UNITY which makes it ONE. A little hint will be that one is called the Catholic Church, and the other is the Orthodox Church.

I’d advise you go read something useful.