The Root of Atheism

[mchium]

I’ve been reading so many posts on various threads about belief/unbelief in God, I thought i’d start a new thread on a specific issue I’m sensing and hope others will share the benefit of their knowledge and opinions.

What is the REAL ROOT of atheism?

Most all the posts I’ve read are dealing with what God is or is not like, how to prove there IS a God, with quotes of scripture and very advanced (and wonderful) theological thought and ideas.

But my thoughts were as follows: Once you are at the point mentioned above, it seems to me you’ve already bypassed the root. I think we could all agree (if we were truly objective) that there is certainly a lot all around us, in science, technology, the cosmos and the world that at LEAST gives us pause to LOOK at intelligence behind it. Just that much…

I think at the heart (root, beginning) of unbelief it is mankind’s fallen nature’s tendency to resist authority, resist the idea of total dependence and lack of control that I think comes immediately (albeit unconsciously most times) to the mind and heart of man when he begins to conceptualize an ‘eternal’, ‘all-powerful’ being that is to be loved and adored!

Does anyone besides me think that before we get to all the proving business, we need to address the issue of what it MEANS if there is such a thing as God, period? I just think most atheist views run screaming from the theatre right there.

Thoughts? and thanks for sharing

 

[dylanschrader]

The root of atheism is Pride because it rejects what is given and seeks to assert something independently of God. It results in a desire to treat the will itself as the final authority. It attempts to give to created things the adoration which is due to God alone by exalting what is contingent as if it were necessary in the face of the One who created everything out of nothing.

 

[Bobby_Jim]

I think that there’s an unhealthy fixation on “evidence”, as in a yes-or-no, factual question, “does God exist”. If there is proof, or incontrivertible evidence, there is no need for “faith”, or “belief”. It is simply a matter of fact. The error is in assuming that anything that is not a matter of fact must therefore be folly.

For Christians, faith is much more about a relationship, and an active decision, kind of like love, or trust. Love does not demand proof. Love demands that we make an active and conscious choice, directed toward someone other than us, someone that, by their otherness, we can not know in complete detail. So it is with belief in God.

It reminds me of King Lear, who demands proof of Cordelia’s love, but it is much too late to save him by the time he has the proof he demands. When we die and see God face to face, it does no good at that point to say, “sorry, I would have believed but there wasn’t enough evidence”. The time is now, to see the people around you, to see the face of Christ in them, and to know that you are called to be Christ to them. To recognize the gifts that surround you in all of creation, the food you eat, the air you breath, the heart that beats within you - all the miracles of creation. You can try all you want to explain in technical detail how they might have come to be, but in the meantime you’re supposed to be doing something with them. Faith is what informs that decision - not so much “how did we get here” - a legitimate question for evidence-based science - but “now that I’m here, what am I supposed to do?” If we spend all our time simply debating “does God exist”, we will never get around to doing what it is he wants us to do!

 

[cynic]

…or maybe it’s hard to believe in a God who in most aspects seems like a human invention.

In ancient times we needed a way to explain how the world around us came to be…God.

We needed to some divine authority to back up the (neccessary) moral codes of behaviour that allowed human family groups/societies to survive…God.

We need the idea of an afterlife to avoid facing the idea of oblivion at death, for us, and perhaps more importantly, our loved ones…God.

…and in order for this God’s existence to be plausable, he can’t be a “nice guy” who lets us do pretty much what we want (excpet for murder etc). No, we are fallen beings who’s major urges are almost always sinful, and this God, our ticket out of hell, demands that we live for him, with nothing in mind but his glory.

So the root of non-nbelief ,as opposed to atheism, is not just that the rules are to hard to live by, but a sneaking suspicion in the back of the mind that none of it is real.

 

[Smber2c]

In ancient times we needed a way to explain how the world around us came to be…God.
We needed to some divine authority to back up the (neccessary) moral codes of behaviour that allowed human family groups/societies to survive…God.
We need the idea of an afterlife to avoid facing the idea of oblivion at death, for us, and perhaps more importantly, our loved ones…God.

I’d just offer to this notion that all the advances in the last 2000 or 4000 years hasn’t given an answer to any of there.

Not that science is bad, its great, but our being so smart hasn’t changed most of our biggest questions.

God’s revelations however, His coming down from heaven and telling us what is what has answered this for at least a third the worlds population.

 

[mchium]

‘cynic’ - good name for the topic. Thanks…

Re the above: this doesn’t wash…a person who ‘suspects’ that we (believers) are all fooling ourselves wouldn’t waste time doing anything but laughing, when seeing how ‘we’ all have created such an elaborate and immense, worldwide (if you include ALL beliefs/faiths in God) system and structure - world-wide! And all to a myth. So many self-deluders, through so many ages. Naw…if something like that is really believed to be a 'fiction, you hold your sides laughing and walk away.

Agnositcs…well, I can see those folks having a different issue - they’re still not quite sure. But atheists…they protest too much. No one out ther is launching attacks and diatribes at the easter bunny or santa clause, which fit more what you said.

I also don’t believe atheists just think the rules are hard to live by…I think they don’t want rules at all (unless they take part in making them - the authority issue - pride)

One more thought: That science explains the ‘how’ of things doesn’t address the existence of God. That’s apples and oranges, since God, if He be there, would have made and owns science. Science would be the handbook He’s left (through mankind) to give understanding to His works.

thanks… and peace…

 

[jimmy85]

I think the root of atheism is funametal protestans.
you can see that because of protestans almost all north europe dont have a religion. unlike the south of europe that is more catholic.

Also I have seen that some fundamentalist protestans give a bad example of their religion and most of people think that every religion is like that. So that compel them to become atheist and to reject any other religion.

Also secularism and social problems could be the root of atheism.

 

[mchium]

…or maybe it’s hard to believe in a God who in most aspects seems like a human invention.

In ancient times we needed a way to explain how the world around us came to be…God.

We needed to some divine authority to back up the (neccessary) moral codes of behaviour that allowed human family groups/societies to survive…God.

We need the idea of an afterlife to avoid facing the idea of oblivion at death, for us, and perhaps more importantly, our loved ones…God.

…and in order for this God’s existence to be plausable, he can’t be a “nice guy” who lets us do pretty much what we want (excpet for murder etc). No, we are fallen beings who’s major urges are almost always sinful, and this God, our ticket out of hell, demands that we live for him, with nothing in mind but his glory.

So the root of non-nbelief ,as opposed to atheism, is not just that the rules are to hard to live by, but a sneaking suspicion in the back of the mind that none of it is real.

I think the root of atheism is funametal protestans.
you can see that because of protestans almost all north europe dont have a religion. unlike the south of europe that is more catholic.

Also I have seen that some fundamentalist protestans give a bad example of their religion and most of people think that every religion is like that. So that compel them to become atheist and to reject any other religion.

Also secularism and social problems could be the root of atheism.

You have some good points I think, but some of what you said would explain why a lot of people could be anti-‘religion’ - but not necessarily anti-God. I know some atheists claim to be so due to the fact that so many so called ‘christians’ or ‘believers’ do such terrible things in the name of God, or act in a way that gives God a bad name, but in these cases, I think those are just copouts and that, even before those reasons, they have a deeper, more basic reason to not want a God.

If they blame their lack of belief on us (believers), they shift the argument and have us defending ourselves. That’s a neat trick, but it misses the point.

 

[cynic]

Re the above: this doesn’t wash…a person who ‘suspects’ that we (believers) are all fooling ourselves wouldn’t waste time doing anything but laughing, when seeing how ‘we’ all have created such an elaborate and immense, worldwide (if you include ALL beliefs/faiths in God) system and structure - world-wide! And all to a myth. So many self-deluders, through so many ages. Naw…if something like that is really believed to be a 'fiction, you hold your sides laughing and walk away.

I won’t be laughing. It means that when we die there is oblivion and our lives were practically meaningless… myself and those around me were nothing more the the sum total of a few billion nueral connections… nope nothing to laugh about there.

Just because people don’t believe in an actual existing God doesn’t mean we like the implication of that… but in the end Christianity or any other religion just doesn’t seem very likely, sorry. I know Christians choose to invent ways of blaming non-believers for this, as if it stems from some personal inadeqaucy or some general vice of mankind (pride, wanting to be in control etc.) but for a lot of us that just isn’t it. Really, who would want to believe in oblivion? No it’s more about putting all this effort into believing something that isn’t real, or trying to believe it but never getting to the point where you can because there’s always that doubt in the back of the mind. Perhaps followers of any religion are simply those who can put aside doubt and believe, while the rest of us can’t, and will just go along with it if we’re forced to.

 

[mchium]

I won’t be laughing. It means that when we die there is oblivion and our lives were practically meaningless… myself and those around me were nothing more the the sum total of a few billion nueral connections… nope nothing to laugh about there.

Just because people don’t believe in an actual existing God doesn’t mean we like the implication of that… but in the end Christianity or any other religion just doesn’t seem very likely, sorry. I know Christians choose to invent ways of blaming non-believers for this, as if it stems from some personal inadeqaucy or some general vice of mankind (pride, wanting to be in control etc.) but for a lot of us that just isn’t it. Really, who would want to believe in oblivion? No it’s more about putting all this effort into believing something that isn’t real, or trying to believe it but never getting to the point where you can because there’s always that doubt in the back of the mind. Perhaps followers of any religion are simply those who can put aside doubt and believe, while the rest of us can’t, and will just go along with it if we’re forced to.

I can see that I need to apologize to you. Since you say what you did here, I would not say my comments and points are directed at someone who feels as you state. Maybe you use the terms differently than I am using them, but you don’t sound like a atheist to me. You sound like someone in doubt who is still searching when and where there seems to be more to learn or discern - either way.

You sound like you are sincerely trying to know what’s what on this. At this point, you can’t find the logic or reasons to believe, but you don’t sound like you have rejected belief if somehow you could find that it was compatible with your reason and with reality, after all.

I don’t know if you will or won’t find that for yourself, but I just don’t think you’re an atheist. I hear you saying 'I’d prefer to believe and be sound in my belief. I’d like it all to be true, but I just don’t think it is"

That’s doubt. Atheism isn’t doubt, it’s ‘certainty’ in overdrive.

Hang in there…keep an open mind and look below the surface in all things…you may yet find a nugget somewhere that fits…

 

[cynic]

, I think those are just copouts and that, even before those reasons, they have a deeper, more basic reason to not want a God.
.

on the other hand, what is the deeper, more basic reason to want a god?

 

[mchium]

on the other hand, what is the deeper, more basic reason to want a god?

My position: One doesn’t believe in God because one ‘wants’ God. One believes in God because one has become convinced that God IS. Then begins the journey (in our terms) -in reality, He has already found us and we are responding - but that’s for another thread.

Faith is based on reason (I know many will pop a blood vessel on that one) - Faith is based on the belief that what is proposed is Truth.

We go where we believe the Truth is, not just with what we want. That may be another reason for atheists, now that you mention this and get me thinking about it…hmmm…what they ‘want’ to be may mean more to them, in the end, than what really is.

Then again, maybe I’ve just gone in a circle…i.e. they want what ‘they want’ because they reject any will and mind but their own…so I’m back to the authority issue…

 

[mchium]

on the other hand, what is the deeper, more basic reason to want a god?

then again…the more ‘mystical’ answer would be that the longing (want) for God is part of our makeup; put there by Him in the grand game of ‘hide and seek’ He loves to play. He makes us with an innate desire for Him.

If you’re not into the mystical, we can leave it at my previous answer - Man is a truth seeker. God is Truth.

 

[cynic]

My position: One doesn’t believe in God because one ‘wants’ God.

I can’t agree with that, when it comes to things like this people will always believe what they they want (not just what is immediately appealing though). Yes Christians sacrifice immediate gratification (sin) for their beliefs, but you could say that the psychological benefits of such belief (a meaning to life, relatives awaiting them in heaven) more than makes up for it.

 

[Smber2c]

I think the root of atheism is funametal protestans.
you can see that because of protestans almost all north europe dont have a religion. unlike the south of europe that is more catholic.
Also I have seen that some fundamentalist protestans give a bad example of their religion and most of people think that every religion is like that. So that compel them to become atheist and to reject any other religion.

I don’t have the historical or geographic knowledge to affirm the countries and regions suggested here, but there is some clear support for the thinking.

Many of the more radical protestants I met in college would say things of this effect, “Faith doesn’t make sense. If it made sense you wouldn’t need faith, it would just be logic.”

This sort of thinking is present in most fundamentalists I’ve met and would create a situation where most of the well educated may leave Christianity…if it were true. Which many areas the majority of Christians would say it is

So, we got this splitting affect where people must choose: God and faith or science and reason…but not both. Very unfortunate for persons that choose either.

 

[Hellisreal]

Doubting they were truly ever loved?
We love God because He loved us first…
I dont know, its only something I have really started to think about lately.

 

[Kaninchen]

I think the root of atheism is funametal protestans.
you can see that because of protestans almost all north europe dont have a religion. unlike the south of europe that is more catholic.

Also I have seen that some fundamentalist protestans give a bad example of their religion and most of people think that every religion is like that. So that compel them to become atheist and to reject any other religion.

Also secularism and social problems could be the root of atheism.

The problem with your analysis is that it’s both completely anachronistic and several thousand miles out of place - the phenomenon of ‘fundamentalist’ Christianity is relatively modern and almost entirely American.

Not only that, it ignores other major social differences between northern and southern Europe (not to mention western and eastern) - for example, the fact that feudalism hung on much longer in the south which has also been been economically backward until relatively recently.

An argument that religiosity is a phenomenon of socially and economically more developed societies would (at least) account for the fall in religious observance in Europe’s catholic countries during the past few decades as they’ve been catching up with the north.

 

[Kaninchen]

Oooooops!

That last bit should have been:

An argument that lack of religiosity is a phenomenon of socially and economically more developed societies would (at least) account for the fall in religious observance in Europe’s catholic countries during the past few decades as they’ve been catching up with the north.

 

[Bennie_P]

I believe the root of Athiesm can be found in each and everyone of us Christians failing to reflect Christ in our lives. We provide a bad example of our talk for so many of us fail to show it in our walk, myself the most guilty of that failure. If we claim that God is love and we show no love to others then, others will see our talk is empty words, thus the idea of God is empty in the eyes of the unbeliever. The only way to fight Athiesm is continued conversion of ourselves. :twocents:

 

[jimmy85]

The problem with your analysis is that it’s both completely anachronistic and several thousand miles out of place - the phenomenon of ‘fundamentalist’ Christianity is relatively modern and almost entirely American.

Not only that, it ignores other major social differences between northern and southern Europe (not to mention western and eastern) - for example, the fact that feudalism hung on much longer in the south which has also been been economically backward until relatively recently.

An argument that religiosity is a phenomenon of socially and economically more developed societies would (at least) account for the fall in religious observance in Europe’s catholic countries during the past few decades as they’ve been catching up with the north.

I mean also that protestans have flaws on their doctrine, for example evolutionism dosent contradict the genesis , like John Paul the second said “truth dosent contradicts the truth”.
dosent amtter if evolusionism happened or not. however people use that to debunk christianity.

The bible is a spitirual book and not a scientific book. the scientific stuffs dosent matter just the spiritual stuffs are the ones that matter.

for example would you look for religious stuffs on a math book?
no, its a math book it explain stuffs about math. It is the same with the bible, it is a spiritual book and not a scientific book.

So many protestans say the bible is the main authority so they read the genesis as if it was a scientific book or if the entire bible was an historic book. and this gives a bad image as well to the religions, people suddenly start to think that inspired book are fairy tales.