H
Hesychios
Guest
Yes, I have.
I also own the Jordanville prayer book BTW, as well as some others. Many of my remaining books are still in storage from my stay in China.
- Status
I also own the Jordanville prayer book BTW, as well as some others. Many of my remaining books are still in storage from my stay in China.
A
AnneElliot
Guest
Then the language of the promises to those who recite the Rosary should not be offensive to you.
It is Mary’s soul which proclaims the greatness of the Lord, and it is Mary whom all generations will call blessed. The Akathist tells Our Lady “Rejoice, star that causest the Sun to appear!”, calls her “the assurance of those who pray in silence”, the “bridge that conveyest us from earth to heaven”, “thou who givest light to the minds of the faithful”, “thou through whom hades was stripped bare”, “thou through whom we are clothed with glory”, “thou through whom victories are obtained” etc., etc., etc.
See how powerful Our Lady is? And yet you want to deny that she can grant special favors to those who seek her intercession?
I think you should take another look at the 15 promises:
- To all those who shall pray my Rosary devoutly, I promise my special protection and great graces.
- Those who shall persevere in the recitation of my Rosary will receive some special grace.
- The Rosary will be a very powerful armor against hell; it will destroy vice, deliver from sin and dispel heresy.
- The Rosary will make virtue and good works flourish, and will obtain for souls the most abundant divine mercies. It will draw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
- Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish.
- Whoever recites my Rosary devoutly reflecting on the mysteries, shall never be overwhelmed by misfortune. He will not experience the anger of God nor will he perish by an unprovided death. The sinner will be converted; the just will persevere in grace and merit eternal life.
- Those truly devoted to my Rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
- Those who are faithful to recite my Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces and will share in the merits of the blessed.
- I will deliver promptly from purgatory souls devoted to my Rosary.
- True children of my Rosary will enjoy great glory in heaven.
- What you shall ask through my Rosary you shall obtain.
- To those who propagate my Rosary I promise aid in all their necessities.
- I have obtained from my Son that all the members of the Rosary Confraternity shall have as their intercessors, in life and in death, the entire celestial court.
- Those who recite my Rosary faithfully are my beloved children, the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.
- Devotion to my Rosary is a special sign of predestination.
H
Hesychios
Guest
I think you are assuming too much here.
There is a world of difference between us singing the praises of the Holy Theotokos, a creature of God, and she herself claiming powers and distributing salvation based upon ‘conditions’ she herself sets.
Orthodox can see this difference, and stand and sing her praises in an akathist with joy. But we could not accept the boasting and personal claims to authority of this apparition, which promises salvation in advance.
I think we are seeing the difference between latria and dulia here (to borrow some Latin terms for arguments sake). Orthodox adore the Holy Theotokos, and praise her. Orthodox do not expect her to be making this kind of boastful claim on her own behalf, it is abhorant for a creature of God to make on it’s own behalf. Many Catholics seem to have grown to expect it from her, there must be a fundamental difference in how we see Mary. Anyone can see that this apparition has succumbed to the sin of pride, and a spitiual director should see this in a confession straight away. In other words it is nice to be flattered, but lets not flatter ourselves, it is unbecoming and leads to thoroughly bad ends.
Mary, believed by us to be sinless by choice, would not make these boastful claims on her own behalf.
Perhaps it is good to remember what Jesus said about sitting at the head of a table Luke 14: 7-11. There is a sense for that here, Mary would never make these claims for herself, she is too holy and too sensible.
A
AnneElliot
Guest
Can you tell me which of the promises specifically you are referring to, Michael? I still hold that you are misunderstanding the promises, divorcing them from context. Mary was able to say “my soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord” for the same reason she is able to promise anything to us… the grace of God.
Those who persevere in prayer are bound to receive great graces. This is the effect of prayer upon the soul. It’s not a boastful thing to promise.
Those who persevere in prayer are bound to receive great graces. This is the effect of prayer upon the soul. It’s not a boastful thing to promise.
M
MarianD
Guest
I firmly believe in these promises. The promise that I doubted the most, promise #7 (“Those truly devoted to my Rosary shall not die without the Sacraments of the Church”) has been given to me.
H
Hesychios
Guest
sys
You are not able to promise salvation, I am not able to promise salvation. Quite frankly no one can but God Himself. The apparition is not able to promise salvation for the same reason.
I have given an analysis of the promises early in this thread, if you are interested in what I have to say about them you will find it there.
You are not able to promise salvation, I am not able to promise salvation. Quite frankly no one can but God Himself. The apparition is not able to promise salvation for the same reason.
A
AnneElliot
Guest
I’m beginning to think Shin is right… are you purposely trying to misinterpret the promises?
“Rejoice, ship for those who wish to be saved!”
V
Vico
Guest
They are all straightforward, yet, these two require some more detail.
We do not obtain from God, anything that is not in our best spiritual interest. We receive graces: fortifications against sinning, that of virtue, for example these of Our Lady herself:
- Most pure, Mt. 1:18, 20, 23; Lk 1:27,34
- Most prudent, Lk 2:19, 51
- Most humble, Lk 1:48
- Most faithful, Lk 1:45; Jn 2:5
- Most devout, Lk 1:46-7; Acts 1:14
- Most obedient, Lk 1:38; 2:21-2, 27
- Most poor, Lk 2:7
- Most patient, Jn 19:25
- Most merciful, Lk 1:39, 56
- Most sorrowful, Lk 2:35
M
Monica4316
Guest
Hesychios,
I disagree that the promises are ‘prideful’… you are speaking with the assumption that Mary decided on these promises on her own authority. But that’s not what we believe. What I would say really happened is Mary obtained these promises from God and they are His will, and she communicated them to us. Since they are His will, there’s nothing wrong with her saying “I”… just as Mary said in Scripture, “all generations will call me blessed”. We don’t see that as a prideful thing to say because she was just saying the truth that God gave her. In the same way, she’s just stating these promises in a very simple direct way, and they are in no way separate from God’s grace. I’m not sure what gave you that impression.
I disagree that the promises are ‘prideful’… you are speaking with the assumption that Mary decided on these promises on her own authority. But that’s not what we believe. What I would say really happened is Mary obtained these promises from God and they are His will, and she communicated them to us. Since they are His will, there’s nothing wrong with her saying “I”… just as Mary said in Scripture, “all generations will call me blessed”. We don’t see that as a prideful thing to say because she was just saying the truth that God gave her. In the same way, she’s just stating these promises in a very simple direct way, and they are in no way separate from God’s grace. I’m not sure what gave you that impression.
H
Hesychios
Guest
That is what you would say, but what do you have that will support this, other than bringing the idea with you?
In other words, you are making an assumption, correct?
H
Hesychios
Guest
This is the people exclaiming to the Holy Theotokos:
Be Happy! Be Joyful!
WE are exclaiming that in her blessings she should rejoice. As you should rejoice in your blessings and I should rejoice in mine
Mary is our hero, we celebrate her. We can acknowledge her role in salvation history, and thank her for her prayers.
This is not a matter of she herself proclaiming “I AM the ship for those who would be saved! Pray to me!”
There is a difference, for instance in you or I saying “Mr. Obama is the most pwerful man in the world!” (True or not, it may be a matter of opinion but by some standards people could possibly say that, considering his position) and Mr. Obama himself proclaiming “I AM THE MOST POWERFUL MAN IN THE WORLD!”
There is a difference between me saying my wife is the most lovely woman in the world (and to me she certainly is) and she herself proclaiming “I am the most lovely woman in the world!”
M
maryj
Guest
My mother was diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer when she was seven months pregnant, with me. Her lymph nodes were so filled with cancer cells that some of them actually ruptured. The doctors wanted to start treatment on her immediately, within 24 hours of diagnosis she had a radiacal mastectomy. The doctors discussed with my parents their options, and suggested she begin treatments that day. My parents questioned the doctors on what would happen to the baby she carried, their responses were that the pregnancy would probably terminate itself, after prayerful consideration my parents told the doctors they would wait to start treatment until I was born and that Gods will would be done. Every person in our parish, every Nun at my aunts convent and anyone within ear shot was asked to pray the rosary. I was born on St. Josephs day (the protector of the family) in 1962. my ten brothers and sisters laid our mother to rest three years ago this july. I was with my mom, in her home, on that early hot summer morning. The skies were still dark and it was so quiet and still, moments before she took her last breathe a huge wind came up and blew the back door open, I heard the wind in her maple tree outside the back door, she closed her eyes and she was gone. My mother was never without her rosary, even after the stroke took away her mobility, those arthritis stricken fingers worked those beads. Oh yes, promises of Our Blessed Mother…I believe. Praise be to God.
S
Shin
Guest
Humility is the truth, nothing more, nothing less.
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
In the Orthodox tradition, St Seraphim of Sarov prayed the Rosary every day and urged his spiritual children to do so as well.
In a vision he had of the Mother of God, he was told that the Rosary was THE most important form of prayer to her that guaranteed her protection in life and death.
I like that tradition!
Alex
In a vision he had of the Mother of God, he was told that the Rosary was THE most important form of prayer to her that guaranteed her protection in life and death.
I like that tradition!
Alex
M
Marie5890
Guest
Thanks Alex. That is very beautiful.
The more I pray the rosary, the more of a devotion grows for it for me personally.
H
Hesychios
Guest
I feel likewise.
J
johnthebaptist1
Guest
There was a question ask about the 11th promises ,in which OUR LADY that those
who said the rosary daily shall obtain what they ask for.
answer my request, I firmilly believe in the power of the rosary that OUR LADY said
IT well bring peace and salvation too the world,also protection from the Devil and
salvation for our soul.
OUR LADY is Queen of Heaven and earth and I believe it her words, just like I
believe in Jesus words that are true.
who said the rosary daily shall obtain what they ask for.
Code:
IT is true,for many times when I ask OUR LADY threw the rosary for her help,sheIT well bring peace and salvation too the world,also protection from the Devil and
salvation for our soul.
OUR LADY is Queen of Heaven and earth and I believe it her words, just like I
believe in Jesus words that are true.
S
Shin
Guest
Amen! Ave Maria!
R
ronin67
Guest
Let me answer all of these for you.
“WARNING/Disclaimer”: Holy Mother Mary is the most rightous woman who ever walked the face of the earth, that was sinless (still had a sin nature, yet was a human being. Now let us proceed:
- She has passed away and is our most rightous mother. Christ (God in the flesh provides this).
- No need, I have the Grace of God, thru Jesus Christ (Nothing is more special or needed then this).
- Again, Christ takes care of this.
- Good works is evident thru the truly saved person who has repented of there sins and accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior (Accepting God’s grace, thru the sacrifice of his son).
- Mary doesn’t save, Christ does.
- Sounds like “Jesus Christ” again. Not seeing the above statement in the Holy Bible.
- OK.
- Jesus gives you this, no one else. Where is that in the Holy Bible that the Catholic Church first put together?
- God decides who is released and when.
- Again, not seeing this in scripture (God’s Holy inspired word).
- I already have the best gift from God the Father, Salvation thru Jesus Christ! Thank you God for saving a sinner like me.
- My best female example of Holiness, but how can she do better than Christ Jesus (God in the Flesh)?
- That is interesting.
- I’m still a child of God, saved by his grace thru Jesus Christ.
- Where does this devotion (in the Bible) come from and does it warrant the almost workship level deemed appropriate by many Catholics???
May God Bless!
ED
R
ronin67
Guest
The Queen of Heaven. Maybe a Saint. I just can’t find Queen of Heaven in the Bible that the Catholic Church put together. Please tell me where it is at specifically in the Holy Bible and I will be silent. Question, if a person never held a manmade rosary again, would he still have salvation? I think we get too attached to objects. I can understand the need for a Cruxifix above the alter (visual reminder, needed for many who don’t visit there Holy Bible on a daily basis), but is there a need for the rest? Really, do you think Saint Peter or Saint Paul would be pleased with all the statues in the church today? Would they say they were needed for salvation?
Thanks!
Ed
- Status