The Rosary and the promises of Our Lady

[paperwight]

.

The only point I have continued to make, is the Rosary is dated to Dominics time. That can’t be disputed.
Gary

Would the word of a Pope, Pope Paul VI, convince you that the Rosary as we know it does not date from the time of St. Dominic?

See Pope Paul’s ‘Marialis Cultus’. 1974.

‘On the one hand it has been emphasized that the Rosary is, as it were, a branch sprung from the ancient trunk of the Christian liturgy, the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin, whereby the humble were associated in the Church’s hymn of praise and universal intercession. On the other hand it has been noted that this development occurred at a time-the last period of the Middle Ages-when the liturgical spirit was in decline and the faithful were turning from the liturgy towards a devotion to Christ’s humanity and to the Blessed Virgin Mary, a devotion favoring a certain external sentiment of piety’. end of quote from Marialis Cultus.

The Late Middle Ages are defined as the 14th and 15th Centuries. The Pope is saying that the Rosary developed in the 14th and 15th centuries; and the phrase 'the last period of the Middle Ages implies more the 15th century, which ties in with the expansion of the Hail Mary to include the ‘Holy Mary… pray for us’ half of the Hail Mary at Trent.

That is to say, long after St. Dominic. You will also notice that there is no mention by the His Holiness of St. Dominic having a hand in this development, although he does pay tribute to the work of the Dominicans in protecting the devotion, which would have been the obvious time to pay tribute to St. Dominic as having been instrumental.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Good Afternoon all my Brothers and Sisters of God. May the Blessings of our Lord and the Blessed Mother be upon you today.

You guys all OK?

Yep I read that. He’s vague though in the Middle Age mention. It could be dated without doubt to Dominic of Prussia 1380-1450. Which is the middle ages and probly what he makes referrence to without making mention of St. Dominic. This way he covers himself all the way around, smart thinking on his part actually. Dominic of Prussia is in all the links in dating its History.
But theres no claim by him of placing the Rosary together as it is? We know he prayed the Rosary as it is today. So its from this period and probly before this period still. St Dominic is dated to 1215. So yes we have a stumbling block of 100 years.

I would think at some point the verification one way of the other will arrise. Something else will come up in this 100 year period I would think. I don’t know that any of us here today will live to see this.

But I don’t doubt this happened with St Dominic. Facts arn’t there and the time period is basically correct. What else could you conclude? At this point we would only be debating what “you” don’t believe.

You yourself just dated this to the middle ages. I clarified the dates in the middle ages which the Pope make no mention of, or of who the Rosary comes from in the very link you posted? So what are we really saying here? Now you “are” confusing me.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Oh btw the middles ages are dated from the 5th to the 15th which followed the fall of the western roman empire. So that puts the last 1/3 of the middle ages from 10-15 using “your” very logic? The latter part of the middle ages as the Pope mentioned. He is only verifying what I’m saying in other words.

 

[thetruth0flife]

You have just now ‘discovered’ this?

For your information, a lot of religious orders do the Little Office, or many did until recent decades at least. I am surprised that you are unaware of that, but it is not traced back to saint Dominic. You have to date the Little Office, and show a link between the two, you never seem to get that. :doh2:

As for the rosary and Saint Dominic, the issue was already addressed in post #55

To wit:
… if there were any satisfactory evidence to show that St. Dominic had identified himself with the pre-existing Rosary and become its apostle. But here we are met with absolute silence. Of the eight or nine early Lives of the saint, not one makes the faintest allusion to the Rosary. [This would indicate that Alan de la Roche himself had no primary sources for his work of fiction] The witnesses who gave evidence in the cause of his canonization are equally reticent. In the great collection of documents accumulated by Fathers Balme and Lelaidier, O.P., in their “Cartulaire de St. Dominique” the question is studiously ignored. The early constitutions of the different provinces of the order have been examined, and many of them printed, but no one has found any reference to this devotion. We possess hundreds, even thousands, of manuscripts containing devotional treatises, sermons, chronicles, Saints’ lives, etc., written by the Friars Preachers between 1220 and 1450; but no single verifiable passage has yet been produced which speaks of the Rosary as instituted by St. Dominic or which even makes much of the devotion as one specially dear to his children. The charters and other deeds of the Dominican convents for men and women, as M. Jean Guiraud points out with emphasis in his edition of the Cartulaire of La Prouille (I, cccxxviii), are equally silent.

This is from the** Catholic Encyclopedia**. This is sold scholarship, with references right in the text, from unbiased Catholic theologians and historians from the pre-Vatican II church reporting the facts as they have found them after (presumably) years of serious (and also presumably eager) searching in a reference work with the Nihil Obstat attached. This information can not be compared with unfounded opinions from some random website anybody can start with a few bucks to toot their own horn.

You have to hit the books, to find out when and where the Little Office started, and who besides the Dominicans might be using it today.

No offense, but it appears that you are putting words into the catholic encyclopedia. I can’t find that writing anywhere in the catholic encyclopedia I’m reading. Could you be commiting heresy?

This is the only writing that the true catholic encyclopedia says about St. Dominic:

So remarkable was the victory of the crusaders at Muret that Simon de Montfort regarded it as altogether miraculous, and piously attributed it to the prayers of Saint Dominic. In gratitude to God for this decisive victory, the crusader erected a chapel in the church of Saint-Jacques, which he dedicated, it is said, to Our Lady of the Rosary. It would appear, therefore, that the devotion of the Rosary, which tradition says was revealed to Saint Dominic, had come into general use about this time.

This is what the catholic encyclopedia says about the Rosary. It admits that it was being used during the times of St. Dominic to combat heresy. I don’t find your information anywhere in the catholic encyclopedia. I will give you the website im looking at just in case you have the wrong catholic encyclopedia.

The catholic encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/05106a.htm

 

[GaryTaylor]

You know whats actually humorous. If you really think about what the Pope is saying with all that wonderful typing you did He is actually making referrence to St Dominic.

“When the Spiirt was in decline and the Faithfull were falling away”, The Pope “is” making referrence to St Dominic. This is exactly what was going on, and why St.Dominic went out to woods to fast and was given the Rosary by the Blessed Mother, then took the Rosary and so feverishly preached it. Read the story of St. Dominic, I’m sure you’ll agree.

The story of St Dominic and what the Pope mentions above, sound very, very similiar?

Slow Down bro and seriously read all this and Think about it before you post.

 

[GaryTaylor]

No offense, but it appears that you are putting words into the catholic encyclopedia. I can’t find that writing anywhere in the catholic encyclopedia I’m reading. Could you be commiting heresy?

This is the only writing that the true catholic encyclopedia says about St. Dominic:

So remarkable was the victory of the crusaders at Muret that Simon de Montfort regarded it as altogether miraculous, and piously attributed it to the prayers of Saint Dominic. In gratitude to God for this decisive victory, the crusader erected a chapel in the church of Saint-Jacques, which he dedicated, it is said, to Our Lady of the Rosary. It would appear, therefore, that the devotion of the Rosary, which tradition says was revealed to Saint Dominic, had come into general use about this time.

This is what the catholic encyclopedia says about the Rosary. It admits that it was being used during the times of St. Dominic to combat heresy. I don’t find your information anywhere in the catholic encyclopedia. I will give you the website im looking at just in case you have the wrong catholic encyclopedia.

The catholic encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/05106a.htm

Hey whats going on Bro. Ya this is it… I crossed posts with you.

I remember the first time I read the entire history of St Dominic with the Rosary. It can’t help but profoundly effect you. I could see why the entire situation would be considered a miracle. I was effected just reading it.

 

[Hesychios]

No offense, but it appears that you are putting words into the catholic encyclopedia. I can’t find that writing anywhere in the catholic encyclopedia I’m reading. Could you be commiting heresy?

Why? do you want to start a fire?

That is a heck of a thing to accuse someone of!

Anyway, are you so new at this that you don’t know the difference between a heresy and making false witness and a blasphemy?

Here is the link.

Here are the bona fides:
APA citation. Thurston, H., & Shipman, A. (1912). The Rosary. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved August 2, 2010 from New Advent: newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm
MLA citation. Thurston, Herbert, and Andrew Shipman. “The Rosary.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 13. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1912. 2 Aug. 2010 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm.
Transcription. This article was transcribed for New Advent by Michael C. Tinkler. In gratitude for the Most Holy Rosary.
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

So then, what do you think?

Is the Catholic Encyclopedia talking out of two sides of it’s mouth, or what?

 

[thetruth0flife]

Why? do you want to start a fire?

That is a heck of a thing to accuse someone of!

Anyway, are you so new at this that you don’t know the difference between a heresy and making false witness and a blasphemy?

Here is the link.

Here are the bona fides:
APA citation. Thurston, H., & Shipman, A. (1912). The Rosary. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Retrieved August 2, 2010 from New Advent: newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm
MLA citation. Thurston, Herbert, and Andrew Shipman. “The Rosary.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 13. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1912. 2 Aug. 2010 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm.
Transcription. This article was transcribed for New Advent by Michael C. Tinkler. In gratitude for the Most Holy Rosary.
Ecclesiastical approbation. Nihil Obstat. February 1, 1912. Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.

So then, what do you think?

Is the Catholic Encyclopedia talking out of two sides of it’s mouth, or what?

My apologies I saw now. You cut the first sentence when referencing it. This is what it truely says:

These positive reasons for distrusting the current tradition might in a measure be ignored as archaeological refinements, if there were any satisfactory evidence to show that St. Dominic had identified himself with the pre-existing Rosary and become its apostle.

The author doesn’t deny it and neither does he say that St. Dominic wasn’t connected with the Rosary. You must read carefully and not cut off some words. What he was trying to say was that because of the lack of direct concrete evidence they cannot disprove the opposing point of view. In other words, if they had sufficient evidence about St. Dominic they would call the whole, “oh praying on beads existed before St. Dominic and so it was probably invented by man” as archaelogical refinements.

He simply says that if they did have “satisfactory” evidence to show that St. Dominic was connected with the Rosary, the whole stuff you debate about that praying on beads already existed and that it was probably made up would be literally false. There is evidence but it doesn’t completely satisfy enough to disprove the diferent perspective you have about the Rosary. So in the end, all this is a matter of faith. Blessed are those who believe but have not seen. There is evidence of Popes admitting it also:

**From that time forward this manner of prayer was “most wonderfully published abroad and developed [promulgari augerique coepit] by St. Dominic whom different Supreme Pontiffs have in various past ages of their apostolic letters declared to be the institutor and author of the same devotion.” *That many popes have so spoken is undoubtedly true, and amongst the rest we have a series of encyclicals, beginning in 1883, issued by Pope Leo XIII, which, while commending this devotion to the faithful in the most earnest terms, assumes the institution of the Rosary by St. Dominic to be a fact historically established./I]

Happy now? St. Dominic was too busy combating heresy and didn’t have time to talk about the Rosary. He was focused more on converting the sinners and combating heresy. That is a more likely reasonable situation. I will give you evidence also:

The life of St. Dominic was one of tireless effort in the, service of God. While he journeyed from place to place he prayed and preached almost uninterruptedly.

I am done and I will not debate. Let people choose whether they believe or not. I personally believe. I don’t need St. Dominic telling me it in the hear or appearing to me so I can believe. God bless you.

Bibliography:

newadvent.org/cathen/05106a.htm*

 

[thetruth0flife]

Why? do you want to start a fire?
Is the Catholic Encyclopedia talking out of two sides of it’s mouth, or what?

Jajajajajjajaja, you cut off some words and try to change the meaning. Rofl. I don’t want to start a fire. Maby in the winter when it gets cold but not now. It’s summer time.

 

[GaryTaylor]

At the end of the day were all brothers anyway. And I certainly don’t mean to offend anyone. There are certainly bigger issues at hand than us kicking it around.

I’ll tell you I been Praying the Rosary daily for some time, and lately been asking the Blessed Mother to interceed with the issues with the Muslim Nation.

Hesychios…I also have continued to read on the separation of the Catholic Church. I have to tell you, the more I read into this, the more I see nothing but man standing before better reason and logic. I must be missing something else. It seems to me its a matter of who sits in what chair and where? I see no Issues that shouldn’t be resolved. Were talking bread, proper wording, and the exact issues after death? Maybe I missed a bigger issue?

I don’t get this, when it come’s to a better world, and a stronger Faith.

Well Miraculous Metal Mass tonight, talk soon.

God Bless.
GT

 

[Hesychios]

My apologies I saw now. You cut the first sentence when referencing it. This is what it truely says:

These positive reasons for distrusting the current tradition might in a measure be ignored as archaeological refinements, if there were any satisfactory evidence to show that St. Dominic had identified himself with the pre-existing Rosary and become its apostle.

The author doesn’t deny it and neither does he say that St. Dominic wasn’t connected with the Rosary. You must read carefully and not cut off some words.

No, you are wrong again :hammering:

I never dealt with anyone that could have so many problems interpreting a scholarly article as yourself.

The preceding paragraph (which is what *These positive reasons for distrusting the current tradition *refers to) was actually giving the basic argument against your tradition. I didn’t even bother posting that because the posts are getting lengthy and these paragraphs are very much so already.

Due to lack of space, I will have to submit the whole damn thing after this post, but for arguments sake, here is the summary of the preceding paragraph:
To sum up, we have positive evidence that both the invention of the beads as a counting apparatus and also the practice of repeating a hundred and fifty Aves cannot be due to St. Dominic, because they are both notably older than his time. Further, we are assured that the meditating upon the mysteries was not introduced until two hundred years after his death. What then, we are compelled to ask, is there left of which St. Dominic may be called the author?

These [aforementioned]** positive reasons for distrusting the current tradition** might in a measure be ignored as archaeological refinements, if there were any satisfactory evidence to show that St. Dominic had identified himself with the pre-existing Rosary and become its apostle.

What the author is stating here, is that there is clear evidence that the rosary existed and was in use before the birth of Saint Dominic (so it could not have come to him from the apparition). However, the authors may have been willing to give the benefit of the doubt and table the scholarly opinion (as you apparently do) based upon the testimony of the early followers of saint Dominic, who would have been close to the root of the legend.

Except, that they looked and could find no evidence of the legend. It didn’t exist until Alan de la Roche wrote it. That is what the second paragraph explains. There was no rtestimony and no legend, it was a myth created by the author de la Roche 250 years later. He invented the tradition.

So what we have here is two scholarly approaches to researching the subject of Saint Dominic’s authorship or mediation in bringing about the rosary.

1. 
   *]An independent review of the historical development of the prayer, looking for evidence of it’s use before during and after the lifetime of saint Dominic, and …
   *]A study of the tradition/legend itself, going back to the earliest possible sources.
   
   What they found was that both approaches to the question point to the conclusion that Saint Dominic had nothing to do with the origin of the rosary. He does not even seem to have been remembered by his own contemporaries of having any particular attachment to the practice. He was also not remembered for having an apparition of Mary that can be associated with the rosary.
   
   These are Catholic scholars, my friend. I have only used Catholic sources.

 

[Monica4316]

Catholic Encyclopedia says:

In 1203 Alfonso IX, King of Castile, deputed the Bishop of Osma to demand from the Lord of the Marches, presumably a Danish prince, the hand of his daughter on behalf of the king’s son, Prince Ferdinand. For his companion on this embassy Don Diego chose Saint Dominic. Passing through Toulouse in the pursuit of their mission, they beheld with amazement and sorrow the work of spiritual ruin wrought by the Albigensian heresy. It was in the contemplation of this scene that Dominic first conceived the idea of founding an order for the purpose of combating heresy and spreading the light of the Gospel by preaching to the ends of the then known world.

In the story about the Rosary, St Dominic received it when he was doing penance for the Albigensians.

For all we know, it could be! We don’t actually have evidence that Bl. Alan de la Roche didn’t receive a private revelation.

There is also this:

So remarkable was the victory of the crusaders at Muret that Simon de Montfort regarded it as altogether miraculous, and piously attributed it to the prayers of Saint Dominic. In gratitude to God for this decisive victory, the crusader erected a chapel in the church of Saint-Jacques, which he dedicated, it is said, to Our Lady of the Rosary. It would appear, therefore, that the devotion of the Rosary, which tradition says was revealed to Saint Dominic, had come into general use about this time.

Again, even if St Dominic didn’t receive the Rosary, it could still be that Mary appeared to him and told him to use it to convert heretics. Even St Louis de Montfort acknowledges that the Rosary was used in SOME FORM before St Dominic

Here’s another quote from Catholic Encylopedia:

“The Rosary”, says the Roman Breviary, “is a certain form of prayer wherein we say fifteen decades or tens of Hail Marys with an Our Father between each ten, while at each of these fifteen decades we recall successively in pious meditation one of the mysteries of our Redemption.” The same lesson for the Feast of the Holy Rosary informs us that when the Albigensian heresy was devastating the country of Toulouse, St. Dominic earnestly besought the help of Our Lady and was instructed by her, so tradition asserts, to preach the Rosary among the people as an antidote to heresy and sin. From that time forward this manner of prayer was “most wonderfully published abroad and developed [promulgari augerique coepit] by St. Dominic whom different Supreme Pontiffs have in various past ages of their apostolic letters declared to be the institutor and author of the same devotion.” That many popes have so spoken is undoubtedly true, and amongst the rest we have a series of encyclicals, beginning in 1883, issued by Pope Leo XIII, which, while commending this devotion to the faithful in the most earnest terms, assumes the institution of the Rosary by St. Dominic to be a fact historically established.

 

[Monica4316]

Also it is NOT true that the only story we have about St Dominic and the Rosary is the one where he receives it from Mary. There are also other accounts of him using the Rosary to convert sinners or cast out demons.

There was a certain pious but self-willed lady who lived in Rome during the time of Saint Dominic. She was so devout and so fervent that she put to shame by her holy life even the strictest religious in the Church.

Having decided to ask Saint Dominic’s advice about her spiritual life, she asked him to hear her confession. For her penance, he gave her one whole Rosary to say, and advised her to say it every day. She said that she had no time to say it, excusing herself on the grounds that she made the Stations of Rome every day, that she wore sack-cloth and also a hair shirt, that she gave herself the discipline several times a week, that she carried out so many other penances and fasted so much. Saint Dominic urged her over and over again to take his advice and say the Rosary, but she would not hear of it. She left the confessional horrified at the tactics of this new spiritual director who had tried so hard to persuade her to take on a devotion that was not at all to her liking.

Later on when she was in prayer, she fell into ecstasy and had a vision of her soul appearing before Our Lord’s Judgment Seat. Saint Michael put all her penances and other prayers onto one balance of the scales, and all her sins and imperfections onto the other. The tray of her good works was greatly outweighed by that of her sins and imperfections.

Filled with terror, she cried for mercy, imploring the help of the Blessed Virgin, her glorious Advocate, who took the one and only Rosary that she had said for her penance and dropped it onto the tray of her good works. The one Rosary was so heavy that it weighed more than all her sins as well as all her good works. Our Lady then reproved her for having refused to follow the counsel of Her servant Dominic, and for not saying the Rosary every day.

As soon as she came to herself, she rushed and threw herself at the feet of Saint Dominic and told him all that had happened, begged his forgiveness for her unbelief, and promised to say the Rosary faithfully every day. By this means, she rose to Christian perfection, and finally to the glory of everlasting life.

While St. Dominic was preaching the Rosary in Carcassone, a heretic made fun of his miracles and the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary, and this prevented other heretics from being converted. As a punishment God allowed fifteen thousand devils to enter the man’s body.

His parents took him to Father Dominic to be delivered from the evil spirits. He started to pray and he begged everyone who was there to say the Rosary out loud with him, and at each Hail Mary our Lady drove a hundred devils out of the man, and they came out in the form of red-hot coals.

After he had been delivered, he abjured his former errors, was converted and joined the Rosary Confraternity. Several of his associates did the same, having been greatly moved by his punishment and by the power of the Rosary.

Also:

This revelation of the origin of the Rosary was affirmed by Pope Leo XIII, and the tradition that Mary first revealed the Rosary to St. Dominic is supported by 13 Popes. St. Dominic now found great success in this new devotion and brought about the conversion of the Albigensians. Our Blessed Lady made known to St. Dominic, a kind of preaching then unknown; which she said would be one of the most powerful weapons against future errors and in future difficulties.

 

[Monica4316]

Here is some more info:

It was during this time that the tradition of the Rosary comes to us. The form in which it has come down to us will best be stated in the words of P. Corneluis de Snecka, a disciple of the French Dominican Alan de la Roche:

We read that at the time when he was preaching to the Albigenses, St. Dominic at first obtained but scanty success: and that one day, complaining of this in pious prayer to our Blessed Lady, she deigned to reply to him, saying:‘Wonder not that you have obtained so little fruit by your labors, you have spent them on barren soil, not yet watered with the dew of Divine grace. When God willed to renew the face of the earth, He began by sending down on it the fertilizing rain of the Angelic Salutation. Therefore preach my Psalter composed of 150 Angelic Salutations and 15 Our Fathers, and you will obtain an abundant harvest.’ [we can see that Mary told him to use the Rosary to convert sinners]
**The place of the revelation was the church of Prouille and the time was 1208. The claim of place and time are most strongly supported by the tradition of the Dominican Order. Pope Leo XIII affirmed over and over the Dominican origin of the Rosary and in a letter to the Bishop of Carcassone (1889), he accepts the tradition of Prouille as the place where the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to St. Dominic, revealing this devotion. The tradition that Mary first revealed the Rosary devotion to St. Dominic is supported by 13 popes. **

The Confraternity of the Rosary was first started by St. Dominic in Palencia in 1218. It’s members pray the 15 decades of the Rosary during the coarse of each week. Mary has confirmed the value of the Confraternity in her well-known Rosary promises: “I have obtained from my Son that all the members of the Confraternity have in life and in death all the Blessed as their associates.” **Pope Clement VIII declared that St. Dominic established the Confraternity of the Rosary in the Church of St. Sixtus in Rome. Pope Alexander VI in 1495, addressed St. Dominic as “the renowned preacher long ago of the Confraternity of the Rosary, and through his merits, the whole world was preserved from universal ruin.” The Confraternity retained its first fervor for 100 years after it was instituted by St. Dominic. After this, it was forgotten. Divine Providence assigned the restoration of it to the eminent French Dominican theologian and preacher, Alan de la Roche. During the 15th century, this son of St. Dominic restored the Rosary to its former vitality. **
catholic-pages.com/prayers/rosary_dominic.asp

this matches very well what St Louis de Montfort wrote

 

[Monica4316]

Here is what the EWTN website says about St Dominic and the Rosary:

1. SAINT DOMINIC AND HIS BROTHERS

The devotion to the Holy Rosary has been treasured in the Church for
many centuries. The Rosary developed as a popular prayer and meditation
between the time of St. Dominic in the 13th Century and Blessed Alan
de la Roche in the 15th Century.

St. Dominic devoted much of his life to preaching against the ‘Albigensian’
heresy which demeaned Christ’s humanity and the mysteries of his earthly
life, the world and all things bodily, marriage and the other sacraments.
Moved by pity for the many who no longer knew Christ and his Church,
St. Dominic set about winning them back to the faith.

In 1216 St. Dominic obtained approval to establish the Order of Preachers
(also known as the Dominicans). Since the time of St. Dominic the
Pope’s theologian has always been a Dominican Father. The great Universities
of Oxford, Paris and Bologna have their origins with the Order of
Preachers.

From early in their history Dominicans promoted the Rosary throughout
Europe and later the missionary lands as a meditation on the principal
mysteries of the faith and a method of prayer for ordinary people.
St. Pius V, the great Dominican pope who led the reform of the Church
after the Council of Trent, settled the form of the Rosary as we know
it.

One of the greatest gifts given to the Church by the Dominicans is
the Rosary of Our Lady and the Rosary Confraternity. Pope Paul VI
recognised this when he said that among those who promote the Rosary
“special mention should be made of the sons of St. Dominic, by tradition
the guardians and promoters of this very salutary practice.” This
booklet briefly describes the benefits of the Rosary and how those
benefits are multiplied by joining the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary.

1. THE ROSARY

Why pray the Rosary today? The following are a few reasons why:

“Among all the devotions approved by the Church none has been so favoured
by so many miracles as the devotion of the Most Holy Rosary” (Pope
Pius IX).

“Say the Rosary every day to obtain peace for the world” (Our Lady
of Fatima).

“There is no surer means of calling down God’s blessings upon the
family . . . than the daily recitation of the Rosary” (Pope Pius XII).

“We do not hesitate to affirm again publicly that we put great confidence
in the Holy Rosary for the healing of evils of our times” (Pope Pius
XII).

“No one can live continually in sin and continue to say the Rosary:
either they will give up sin or they will give up the Rosary” (Bishop
Hugh Doyle).

“The Rosary is a magnificent and universal prayer for the needs of
the Church, the nations and the entire world” (Pope John XXIII).

“The Rosary is the compendium of the entire Gospel” (Pope Paul VI
approving a quote from Pope Pius XII).

“Meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary . . . can be an excellent
preparation for the celebration of those same mysteries in the liturgical
actions * and can also become a continuing echo thereof”
(Pope Paul VI).

“My impression is that the Rosary is of the greatest value not only
according to the words of Our Lady at Fatima, but according to the
effects of the Rosary one sees throughout history. My impression is
that Our Lady wanted to give ordinary people, who might not know how
to pray, this simple method of getting closer to God” (Sister Lucia,
one of the seers of Fatima).

“How beautiful is the family that recites the Rosary every evening”
(Pope John Paul II).

Pope John Paul II has called the Rosary his “favourite prayer,” after
the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours.

St. Louis de Montfort warns us against both the ignorant and scholars
who regard the Rosary as something of little importance…“the Rosary
is a priceless treasure inspired by God.”

Why is the Rosary so effective? Because it is a simple, humble prayer
and forms those who pray the Rosary spiritually in humility, gentleness
and simplicity of heart.

Chapter 4 explains the method of reciting the Rosary including a small
meditation on each of the fifteen mysteries. Chapter 5 contains the
promises of Our Lady to those who devoutly recite the Rosary.

1. CONFRATERNITY OF THE MOST HOLY ROSARY

Origins of the Confraternity

The origin of the Confraternity, like the beginning of many great
works, is shrouded in obscurity. No definite date can be given to
the birth of the Confraternity. It is thought that, like the Rosary,
it owes its foundation to St. Dominic. Pope Leo XIII voices this tradition
when he says: “Its origin is distinguished by its antiquity, for St.
Dominic himself is said to have been its founder.” Certainly the Dominican
Friar Blessed Alan de la Roche promoted these confraternities when
he went from place to place preaching popular missions in the 15th
Century.

Remember also that the Rosary Confraternity is the Confraternity officially
appointed by the Church for the promotion of the Rosary.

ewtn.com/library/PRAYER/CONFRA.TXT*

 

[Shin]

St. Dominic and the Rosary

You ask whether St. Dominic was the first institutor of the Rosary, and show that you yourselves are bewildered and entangled in doubts on the matter. Now, what value do you attach to the testimony of so many Popes, such as Leo X (1521), Pius V (1572), Gregory XIII (1585), Sixtus V (1590), Clement VIII (1605), Alexander VII (1667), Bl. Innocent XI (1689), Clement XI (1721), Innocent XIII (1724) and others who unanimously attribute the institution of the Rosary to St. Dominic, the founder of the Dominican Order, an apostolic man who might be compared to the apostles themselves and who, undoubtedly due to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, became the designer, the author, promoter, and most illustrious preacher of this admirable and truly heavenly instrument, the Rosary?

Pope Benedict XIV (1740-58)

Blessed Romee of Livia, one of St. Dominic’s companions, Prior of the Convent of Lyons, France in 1223, and later Provincial of Provence, was said to have died, according to the medieval chronicler Bernard Gui, holding tightly in his fingers the little knotted cord on which he counted his AVES. Historians regard this as one of the earliest texts describing our present Rosary in its embryonic form” (p. 254).

Fr. Guy Bedouelle, O.P.

The critics relied mainly on the argument of silence to question the ancient tradition that the Blessed Virgin gave the Rosary to St. Dominic. They should have known that many documents referred to by Alan de Rupe may have existed, but did not survive the burning scourge of the Huegenots, who destroyed convents, monasteries, libraries among the countless institutions they committed to the flames. The critics went so far as to say that Alan had invented the Rosary devotion . . . and had attributed it to St. Dominic to tie it in with a famous name. But the two persons Alan relies on for his story of the origin of the Rosary had their “Mariales” preserved at the Convent of Gand: which library was burnt during the wars on religion. There are other documents which have been discovered in later years which were from before Alan de Rupe’s time. The long poem “Rosarius” antedates him by 100 years or so, and clearly refers to St. Dominic and the battle of Muret. This removes Alan from all suspicion of inventing his sources. The elements were all in place at the time of St. Dominic; how did they get together in the Rosary? (p. 26)

John S. Johnson, The Rosary in Action (ch. 3)

Fr. Herbert Thurston, the author of the article in the old Catholic Encyclopedia apparently was at the forefront of a kind of historical critical method which I tend wonder what would happen to much of the history and sayings of the Catholic East and ‘Orthodox’ if applied there as well… before latching too firmly to him, one might consider that. Not everything was perfect in the old days either. The argument of silence… which was not quite the full silence as is put forth… cuts many ways. He I hear was critical of more than a few saints’ histories and miracles…

'Musa, a young and innocent girl, saw in a vision one night the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary, who pointed towards a group of girls who were in her company and whom Musa wanted to approach, though she dared not. The Theotokos asked her if she would like to be with these Virgins and included in their company. When Musa answered that she wished this very much, the Theotokos gave her the following command: that she not act as a child or in an inopportune manner, and that she avoid laughter and playthings, knowing surely that, after thirty days, she would be together with the girls whom she had seen in the company of the Theotokos.

Indeed, from that time on, the young girl changed all her habits and behaved properly. The parents of the young girl, who saw that their daughter had completely changed so suddenly, asked her in astonishment what the reason for the transformation was.

The young girl then related to her parents what the Theotokos had directed her to do in her vision that night and revealed to them the day which was about to come up, when she would be in the company of the Virgins whom she had seen.

So, on the twenty-fifth day, the girl fell ill with a fever. And on the thirtieth day, whent he time of the departure of her soul form the body was approaching, the child saw the Theotokos coming to her once again, accompanied by the young girls, whom she had seen the first time, and calling the child to her.

The young girl, her face blushing out of respect and in a peaceful voice answered:

“Behold, my Lady; behold, my Lady – I am coming.” With those words she gave up her spirit and joined the ranks of the Virgins.

‘The Evergetinos’, Vol. 1

 

[Monica4316]

They should have known that many documents referred to by Alan de Rupe may have existed, but did not survive the burning scourge of the Huegenots, who destroyed convents, monasteries, libraries among the countless institutions they committed to the flames. The critics went so far as to say that Alan had invented the Rosary devotion . . . and had attributed it to St. Dominic to tie it in with a famous name. But the two persons Alan relies on for his story of the origin of the Rosary had their “Mariales” preserved at the Convent of Gand: which library was burnt during the wars on religion. There are other documents which have been discovered in later years which were from before Alan de Rupe’s time. The long poem “Rosarius” antedates him by 100 years or so, and clearly refers to St. Dominic and the battle of Muret. This removes Alan from all suspicion of inventing his sources. The elements were all in place at the time of St. Dominic; how did they get together in the Rosary?

Interesting!

 

[Hesychios]

Interesting!

What is interesting to me is how everyone is trying so hard to believe all this stuff that dates no further back than Alan de la Roche, even to the point of speculating that some band of Huguenots managed to burn every scrap of evidence, and copies, of anything whatsoever that could have been written before Alan de la Roche, but nothing at all of what was written after him.

That Popes could have been taken in by this on occasion since the 16th century is certainly no surprise, they are only human after all. Quotes from Popes from the sixteenth century onward does not constitute evidence. But the one who canonized saint Dominic, and the one who knew him personally (granting his order it’s rule) knew nothing of any such vision or association with the rosary.

The Huguenots did not reach Italy and could not clean out the Vatican archives, or the archives of the Order of Preachers in any congregation or house in any place beyond France, yet there is absolutely nothing anywhere, not just from the period of the Albigension crusade, but for a further two and one half centuries, to suggest an apostolate of the rosary, or a legend of an apparition associated with the Domicans.

And simply put, there was no confraternity of the rosary before Blessed Alan, any reference to it is a fake.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says in part:
Two considerations strongly support the view of the Rosary tradition just expounded. The first is the gradual surrender of almost every notable piece that has at one time or another been relied upon to vindicate the supposed claims of St. Dominic. Touron and Alban Butler appealed to the Memoirs of a certain Luminosi de Aposa who professed to have heard St. Dominic preach at Bologna, but these Memoirs have long ago been proved to a forgery.
and …
The famous will of Anthony Sers, which professed to leave a bequest to the Confraternity of the Rosary at Palencia in 1221, was put forward as a conclusive piece of testimony by Mamachi; but it is now admitted by Dominican authorities to be a forgery ("The Irish Rosary, Jan., 1901, p. 92).

There is so much fictionalizing about this subject it permeates every serious discussion, and impassions the simple faithful who feel threatened by the truth.

I sense a certain dismay at learning a cherished legend is a myth. Especially among those who may have converted based upon some of this fiction. It must be extremely disturbing to some, but it really should not be.

What is important to remember is that the rosary as a prayer rule is always good to pray. And because it is grew organically out of the prayer life of the people of the church, just like the Mass did, and also the Liturgy of the Hours, it still connects us with our predecessors in a special way. It is part of the continuum. We don’t need legends and myths. All we need is a sincere prayer life.

 

[Monica4316]

What is interesting to me is how everyone is trying so hard to believe all this stuff that dates no further back than Alan de la Roche, even to the point of speculating that some band of Huguenots managed to burn every scrap of evidence, and copies, of anything whatsoever that could have been written before Alan de la Roche, but nothing at all of what was written after him.

That Popes could have been taken in by this on occasion since the 16th century is certainly no surprise, they are only human after all. Quotes from Popes from the sixteenth century onward does not constitute evidence. But the one who canonized saint Dominic, and the one who knew him personally (granting his order it’s rule) knew nothing of any such vision or association with the rosary.

The Huguenots did not reach Italy and could not clean out the Vatican archives, or the archives of the Order of Preachers in any congregation or house in any place beyond France, yet there is absolutely nothing anywhere, not just from the period of the Albigension crusade, but for a further two and one half centuries, to suggest an apostolate of the rosary, or a legend of an apparition associated with the Domicans.

And simply put, there was no confraternity of the rosary before Blessed Alan, any reference to it is a fake.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says in part:
Two considerations strongly support the view of the Rosary tradition just expounded. The first is the gradual surrender of almost every notable piece that has at one time or another been relied upon to vindicate the supposed claims of St. Dominic. Touron and Alban Butler appealed to the Memoirs of a certain Luminosi de Aposa who professed to have heard St. Dominic preach at Bologna, but these Memoirs have long ago been proved to a forgery.
and …
The famous will of Anthony Sers, which professed to leave a bequest to the Confraternity of the Rosary at Palencia in 1221, was put forward as a conclusive piece of testimony by Mamachi; but it is now admitted by Dominican authorities to be a forgery ("The Irish Rosary, Jan., 1901, p. 92).

There is so much fictionalizing about this subject it permeates every serious discussion, and impassions the simple faithful who feel threatened by the truth.

I sense a certain dismay at learning a cherished legend is a myth. Especially among those who may have converted based upon some of this fiction. It must be extremely disturbing to some, but it really should not be.

What is important to remember is that the rosary as a prayer rule is always good to pray. And because it is grew organically out of the prayer life of the people of the church, just like the Mass did, and also the Liturgy of the Hours, it still connects us with our predecessors in a special way. It is part of the continuum. We don’t need legends and myths. All we need is a sincere prayer life.

it’s not only Bl Alan de la Roche, there’s also that poem.

Shin posted a link that explains that the author of the Catholic Encyclopedia article is a skeptic about many miraculous stories. So were the Bollandists. I don’t see how they are any more trustworthy than Popes and a Blessed.

 

[thetruth0flife]

Originally posted by Hesychios

To sum up, we have positive evidence that both the invention of the beads as a counting apparatus and also the practice of repeating a hundred and fifty Aves cannot be due to St. Dominic, because they are both notably older than his time.

This is where your conclusion that the Rosary was prayed before St. Dominic comes up? I don’t see the word “Rosary” anywhere in the text. The author doesn’t say that they counted the Aves on beads and acompanied it with a Hail father and creed. Also, repeating a hundred and fifty Aves was a diferent matter and has no relation or connection with the Rosary. So you’re whole fiction story that the Rosary was prayed before St. Dominic is false. Repeating the 150 Aves was more a form of salutation and not even viewed as prayer back in those times.

Orignally posted by Hesychios

What the author is stating here, is that there is clear evidence that the rosary existed and was in use before the birth of Saint Dominic (so it could not have come to him from the apparition).

I dont understand how you draw that conclusion. All it says that the use of beads to count prayers existed and so did repeating 150 Aves but it doesn’t relate to any Rosary. It doesn’t go together and you assume that repeating the 150 Aves was praying the Rosary. That my friend, is false.

Originally posted by Hesychios

Except, that they looked and could find no evidence of the legend. It didn’t exist until Alan de la Roche wrote it. That is what the second paragraph explains. There was no rtestimony and no legend, it was a myth created by the author de la Roche 250 years later. He invented the tradition.

There is evidence but there isn’t testimonys or writings. The author simply says that there is silence but I remind you that a church was built in honor of the Virgin Mary for granting them victory during a war. The author cleary says that there isn’t enough satisfactory evidence. If there was, your whole theory of it being a myth would be history and no one would be arguing against the history of the Rosary.

Originally posted by Hesychios

He was also not remembered for having an apparition of Mary that can be associated with the rosary.

He was remembered because Popes back in his time didn’t denie the fact that he did have the apparition. Other than that, Pope Pius V used the Rosary when they were in war and prayed the Rosary so that they could obtain their victory. He did not doubt the fact that the Rosary was a powerful prayer and obiously did research on it and prayed it himself because he knew that St. Dominic achieved great deeds while praying it during his times.