The Rosary - What is Not Understood?

[GaryTaylor]

I posted which church of the three ? Shall we take the CC view on the Rosary, or shall we take the Orthodox view or even the Protestant view ? Faith is faith, and a sure fire way of an authoritative referee might be presumptuous. You are right back to faith, which is divine and God given and “elective”, up to the individual, freedom of conscience.

He’s from the East below. So its seems to me you are left with an un-historic protestant view? The fact there is a specific devotion in the West and not the East really doesn’t mean much since the Rosary is not binding on any of the faithful even in the West. However…

"Then the Lord held forth His right hand, Blessed His Mother and said to Her; “Let your heart rejoice and be glad, O Mary Blessed among women, for every Grace and Gift has been given to you by my heavenly Father, and every soul that calls on your name with holiness, will not be put to shame, but will find mercy and comfort both in this life and the age to come” "

St Maximus the Confessor; Life of the Virgin, pg136 chp 110. the work is thought to be the earliest complete biography of Mary, the mother of Jesus, at least found to date. 600-AD.

Nevertheless the Rosary is completely in line with the Saints thinking above, thus I can’t see where the issue resides with a view of the three as suggested. Seems to me your ignoring both the CC and EO and going with door number three.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Prayer can take the form of many things in worship of the Lord. One might even say being here is form of prayer for many.

 

[pocohombre]

He’s from the East below. So its seems to me you are left with an un-historic protestant view? The fact there is a specific devotion in the West and not the East really doesn’t mean much since the Rosary is not binding on any of the faithful even in the West. However…

"Then the Lord held forth His right hand, Blessed His Mother and said to Her; “Let your heart rejoice and be glad, O Mary Blessed among women, for every Grace and Gift has been given to you by my heavenly Father, and every soul that calls on your name with holiness, will not be put to shame, but will find mercy and comfort both in this life and the age to come” "

St Maximus the Confessor; Life of the Virgin, pg136 chp 110. the work is thought to be the earliest complete biography of Mary, the mother of Jesus, at least found to date. 600-AD.

Nevertheless the Rosary is completely in line with the Saints thinking above, thus I can’t see where the issue resides with a view of the three as suggested. Seems to me your ignoring both the CC and EO and going with door number three.

Thank you GT. But did he pray the rosary ? But you are right, sure sounds like one of the rosary mysteries and I assume he was Orthodox. My post dealt with the question put to me on where do you go for authority when two brothers are in a dispute. Different churches have different views and i do not claim that any have infallible final authority on an issues,such as the Rosary. These are faith matters, not an authority matter. Even if you believed a church to be infallible, you came to that conclusion by faith. God indeed has the final say, one on one, with us all. To rest on (a) the church short of this weakens her.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Thank you GT. But did he pray the rosary ? But you are right, sure sounds like one of the rosary mysteries and I assume he was Orthodox. My post dealt with the question put to me on where do you go for authority when two brothers are in a dispute. Different churches have different views and i do not claim that any have infallible final authority on an issues,such as the Rosary. These are faith matters, not an authority matter. Even if you believed a church to be infallible, you came to that conclusion by faith. God indeed has the final say, one on one, with us all. To rest on (a) the church short of this weakens her.

The Saints work above is profound. Its a link of clarity from that period which is very consistent with today in orthodoxy. The Rosary developed later no different than the Divine Mercy of this past century. From a Catholic perspective those who embrace these forms of prayer are usually devote and in proper formation of the Church.

As to the Pope, hard for me to gauge so I rarely debate the point. I was raised in the Church. I never viewed the Church in any other way but correct or as any burden, and they never condemned my ignorance, sin, arrogance and insistence on questioning them. Its been a very long time and I see they still have me learning though.

 

[lutheran_farmer]

I have been thinking a lot about this, coming from the Protestant side…

As a small child that had just heard about God, I tried to pray from a sad little place during a very difficult childhood. I was clumsy and sure I got it all wrong, but I didn’t. The intent was there and it got through.

Sometimes it’s hard to talk to God. What do you do then? I think there is nothing wrong with prepared prayers, especially when they have an internal aspect (the rosary isn’t just words, but you’re supposed to think about certain points in the life of Jesus). When you have no other words because of grief, anger, emptiness or pain, why not use the words that help you talk to God? many churches have prepared prayers to help people find the words.

As far as praying to a saint, have you ever been at the graveside of a loved one and spoken to them? You don’t expect an answer, but sometimes it feels right. I can see that if someone has a special connection with someone who died, whether it’s because they admired them or because they can relate to some aspect of their lives, what’s the matter with talking to them? It’s not like talking to God. it’s not worship.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So if we are to say coming here is indeed a form of prayer, thus the mysteries of Christ and His missionary message, thus communication with the Lord. Then we are interceding for each other.

I think then we can see proper formation in the Church thus then the devotions.

 

[Kliska]

New Question, totally out of curiosity: When a person receives a penance from the priest, I understand that sometimes it is so many Hail Mary’s, is that correct? Like, is it that specific? If so, what does one do if they still are not to the point that they pray to saints (I also understand that is an optional practice if Roman Catholic, is that right too?), if they are uncomfortable with that? Do they tell the priest? Do they pray Our Fathers instead?

 

[adf417]

Yes. The penance from the priest is something he has assigned and is mostly a suggestion. If the person is uncomfortable with it for any reason or does not even know the prayer he will assign something else fitting.

Peace!!!

 

[Kliska]

Yes. The penance from the priest is something he has assigned and is mostly a suggestion. If the person is uncomfortable with it for any reason or does not even know the prayer he will assign something else fitting.

Peace!!!

Interesting, thank you!

Grace and Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

New Question, totally out of curiosity

So what’s your thinking on all this? Consider that Mary was perfectly graced and “before” the Incarnation KECHARITOMENE in Greek. I posted the translation difficulties on the other thread on Mary.

Sorry about the caps above I wasn’t yelling at you, its a cut and paste.

Remember “before” the Incarnation. In other words when God sent Gabriel both already knew Marys perfect state of grace.

Origen wrote about the annunciation to Mary (Luke 1:26-38), he remarked:

The angel greeted Mary with a new address, which I could not find anywhere else in Scripture… The angel says, “Hail, full of grace.” The Greek word is kecharitomene [kecaritomene]. I do not remember having read this word elsewhere in Scripture. An expression of this kind, “Hail, full of grace,” is not addressed to a male. This greeting was reserved for Mary alone.

oocities.org/athens/Atrium/8410/kecharitomene.html

God knew before Mary certainly and well before the Incarnation, and before everyone else according to Isaiah, predestined.

Now consider what Origen wrote about Genesis on predestination.

1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God created everything from nothing, and whatever He desired to be He called up from nothing into existence. .

“When God undertook in the beginning to create the world, for nothing that comes to be is without a cause, each of the things that would ever exist was presented to His mind. He saw what else would result when such a thing were produced; and if such a result were accomplished, what else would accompany; and what else would be the result even of this when it would come about. And so on to the conclusion of the sequence of events. He Knew what would be, without being altogether the cause of the coming to be of the things He knew would happen.” Origen on Genesis

I think its important to see where Mary is in the order of grace, thus understating of veneration as opposed to worship reserved for the Lord. thus the Rosary. And even further Mary in tradition.

 

[GaryTaylor]

4th ecumenical council, Nature of Christ. This isn’t defined in scripture. So confusion resides here often in understanding Genesis to the Incarnation to the Cross.

The Confession of Chalcedon provides a clear statement on the human and divine nature of Christ:

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; (ἐν δύο φύσεσιν ἀσυγχύτως, ἀτρέπτως, ἀδιαιρέτως, ἀχωρίστως – in duabus naturis inconfuse, immutabiliter, indivise, inseparabiliter) the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person (prosopon) and one Subsistence (hypostasis), not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (μονογενῆ Θεόν), the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

again…

in all things like unto us, [without sin]; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably;

God no-sin, Mary was preserved by a singular act of grace as recorded above in scripture. And God knew and from the beginning. All She had do was put Her life in Gods hand. And Her yes clearly shows She indeed did.

Amazing…Immaculate Conception states its “most fitting” Mary was conceived without sin. For sure She had no sin at the Incarnation, for sure She was perfectly graced before the Incarnation and before the Annunciation.

This leaves two possibilities. Either Mary was preserved prior to the Annunciation and after Her conception Or She was preserved at Her Immaculate Conception. The CC states it is “most fitting” at the IC.

The order of grace by God.

 

[Kliska]

So what’s your thinking on all this? Consider that Mary was perfectly graced and “before” the Incarnation KECHARITOMENE in Greek. I posted the translation difficulties on the other thread on Mary.

Sorry about the caps above I wasn’t yelling at you, its a cut and paste.

Remember “before” the Incarnation. In other words when God sent Gabriel both already knew Marys perfect state of grace.

Origen wrote about the annunciation to Mary (Luke 1:26-38), he remarked:

The angel greeted Mary with a new address, which I could not find anywhere else in Scripture… The angel says, “Hail, full of grace.” The Greek word is kecharitomene [kecaritomene]. I do not remember having read this word elsewhere in Scripture. An expression of this kind, “Hail, full of grace,” is not addressed to a male. This greeting was reserved for Mary alone.

oocities.org/athens/Atrium/8410/kecharitomene.html

God knew before Mary certainly and well before the Incarnation, and before everyone else according to Isaiah, predestined.

Now consider what Origen wrote about Genesis on predestination.

1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God created everything from nothing, and whatever He desired to be He called up from nothing into existence. .

“When God undertook in the beginning to create the world, for nothing that comes to be is without a cause, each of the things that would ever exist was presented to His mind. He saw what else would result when such a thing were produced; and if such a result were accomplished, what else would accompany; and what else would be the result even of this when it would come about. And so on to the conclusion of the sequence of events. He Knew what would be, without being altogether the cause of the coming to be of the things He knew would happen.” Origen on Genesis

I think its important to see where Mary is in the order of grace, thus understating of veneration as opposed to worship reserved for the Lord. thus the Rosary. And even further Mary in tradition.

Honestly I’m lost as to the question here, which I feel has moved in detail from the rosary? If you’d like, I think another thread asking non-RC’s questions on their different takes on Mary or even their opinion on certain aspects of her or her life might be better?

 

[Peter_J]

… pray to saints (I also understand that is an optional practice if Roman Catholic, is that right too?)

Yes, it is optional. Although I admit that I have encountered some Catholics who take a very negative view toward Catholics who don’t pray the rosary.

 

[Nicea325]

Yes, it is optional. Although I admit that I have encountered some Catholics who take a very** negative view toward Catholics who don’t pray the rosary**.

That would include me…:crying: Not that I have never prayed the Rosary. I prefer to read Scripture and to meditate.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Honestly I’m lost as to the question here,

As mentioned above with the Saints, Communion of Saints, order of Grace. I was thinking of the larger picture. In other words while it is true in regards to the Rosary as optional. The implication of the mysteries are part of the deposit of faith.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes, it is optional. Although I admit that I have encountered some Catholics who take a very negative view toward Catholics who don’t pray the rosary.

They told you this? I think here to some degree the debate goes both ways if one should, not if they must. I’ve never seen this in the Church though. I also believe we could agree the preponderance of Catholics, I really don’t see praying the Rosary.

 

[Kliska]

As mentioned above with the Saints, Communion of Saints, order of Grace. I was thinking of the larger picture. In other words while it is true in regards to the Rosary as optional. The implication of the mysteries are part of the deposit of faith.

So, is this in reference to the mysteries in general or to what you are to be meditating on while saying the rosary? What I mean by my question is; which came first the meditating on the mysteries tradition or the saying of the beads tradition? I’m assuming as it advanced the two became merged?

 

[taylorf]

If you’d like, I think another thread asking non-RC’s questions on their different takes on Mary or even their opinion on certain aspects of her or her life might be better?

The Mormon church places little to no emphasis on Mary. I love the Catholic view of Mary. The LDS always talk about the existence of a heavenly mother but talk little about it. Mary fulfills that role for me and brings me closer to Christ.

 

[Peter_J]

That would include me…:crying:

:console: There there.

(Or should that be :tsktsk: :dts: ?)

 

[GaryTaylor]

So, is this in reference to the mysteries in general or to what you are to be meditating on while saying the rosary? What I mean by my question is; which came first the meditating on the mysteries tradition or the saying of the beads tradition? I’m assuming as it advanced the two became merged?

Right, for example yesterday being Friday - the Sorrowful mysteries

First Decade: The Agony in the Garden
Second Decade: Scourging at the Pillar
Third Decade: Crowning with Thorns
Fourth Decade: Carrying of the Cross
Fifth Decade: The Crucifixion

So the repetition of the prayer in essence becomes a centering means on the mysteries. So the repetitive aspect of the prayer is repetitive contemplation which continues to deepen on the mysteries as does the understanding of proper approach to them or… the Lord.

The history goes back to the beads and right they further developed from 150 beads to what it eventually became today.

This centering in meditation/contemplation is what we were talking about earlier which becomes a perpetual state of contemplative prayer pretty much the same in what I gather occurs with many here through scripture and many through the office etc. This state as I was saying earlier we see becomes not only a 15-minute exercise, but through good habit permeates the daily spiritual life through its centering itself in Christ in virtue. True humility and love is the state in which prayer indeed becomes direct communication with response of the Lords will. This is the beginning of the perfection of worship and relationship in which the supernatural occurs. This is also true as we look further at the mass in the Church, this too is prayer in correct worship, humility and a centered approach to the Lord. So then the proper approach to the mass becomes a proper daily approach in constant contemplative prayer in practice.

In this sense the Rosary places one perfectly centered and in the correct approach to the Lord in humility. For it is a sign of humility to begin with to approach the Lord through His Saints, and in this case the Mother of the Lord. This too becomes a view of the Lord through the eyes thus a window of His holy people who indeed witnessed these events and mysteries. There is no more excellent way of praying, nor it there any other accredited with more miracles in the Church.

While there are many ways to reflect on the mysteries such as daily scripture, the office, and other prayer recitations the Rosary without a doubt is a practice of virtue to obtain virtue which is constantly focused and intertwined with meditation on the greatest mysteries of Christ and His Church.

As too what is “required” in the Church I take little interest in that conversation of the minimal effort required within the Church of any given aspect or time. What I have personally witnessed within the Church through much of the last century is those individuals who practice this devotion though not the majority, for sure I could count them among the most rooted individuals in the Church I have encountered and I would venture to say for the very reasons mentioned here.

Its all good and to slight it is narrow minded, immature, and often just plain ignorance. Its no different than saying I need water to live, but I only need to drink one glass a day not seven. Same for the spiritual well being in relation to prayer,