The Rosary - What is Not Understood?

[Steveabrous]

lol I don’t really hold to them either, except in the true sense of revival that is recorded in scripture of a return to the Lord and His ways.

Repetition isn’t all of the issue, but it is part of it. There is either rote repetition for the sake of repetition, or repetition for the sake of focus, emphasis, etc…

Once something is repeated again and again in a droning or chanting manner, it is very easy for the human mind to go into an altered state. Some see this as spiritually beneficial, some don’t.

With the rosary you are to concentrate on aspects of the life of Jesus. That is beneficial. It isn’t going into a trance if you stay focused on Jesus like your supposed to.

 

[Kliska]

Kliska, I have read many of your posts on this thread and I would like to respond to your concerns.

Thank you for taking the time to type that all out. Just to clarify, they aren’t really concerns necessarily but rather clarifications of many protestants’ perspectives.

First off your right Peter and Paul did not pray the rosary. In fact I doubt the rosary was given to st. Benedict as legend has it.

Several hundred years ago monks used to pray all 150 pslams every day, they strung beads together to help keep count. The laity (regular people) wished to mimick the monks but most could not read so they would say 150 our Fathers (the lords prayer) instead. This developed into the 150 divided in to 3- 50’s each 50 with 5 10s called a decade with 1 our father and 10 hail mary’s then certain aspects of the life of Jesus ,and to a lesser extent Mary’s, was assigned to each decade. It is something that developed over time.

Yes, I had read of this, and it would again go back to the protestant idea of “back to the Bible” to see how it was in the first days, weeks, months, years after Pentecost.

I would point out that Peter and Paul’s form of worship did not look like the modern American Protestant style of worship. They gathered in homes, shared a meal, read from the scriptures, then had communion. We know this from the early fathers particularly Justin Martyr. This looks more like the Catholic worship then the Protestant’s

That looks very much like what my family and I believe to have been taught in the NT. I also had a best friend growing up that belongs to an interesting church, sometimes called the church of friends, though they call themselves by no name. They only meet in public buildings or homes and refuse to build a church. So, there are protestants that do try to hold to the earliest teachings and even the way the church operated while under duress.

When we pray the rosary we are not praying TO Mary in the modern understanding of the phrase “Pray to”. We are asking her to pray for us and with us. Just like you might ask your congregation to pray for you and with you for a particular need. You see we Catholics believe that a person who has died and gone to heaven is alive and not dead as our lord said in Mark 12:27:

"He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. "

We believe that such a person is as much a member of the church as they were when they were on earth. In fact more so. And just like we can ask the members of the church on earth to pray for us and with us we can do the same with those members in heaven.

We tend to understand that too, but many see it against talking to those who have passed on (though we too believe they are living) for many believe it warns against such in scripture, and we are not told to go to them, but rather directly to God. In fact, if we want to say “hey” to any of our relatives in Christ who have passed on, many protestants will request that the Father pass on the greeting. Further, we aren’t told the the dead in Christ are able to hear all prayer from all people directing their prayers to them.

As far as the Rosary being repetitive it is not vain repetition Jesus warned about in Matthew 6;7:

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.”

You see in ancient times Pagans believed there were many gods. Even more gods then humans, and many gods no one knew about. They thought that if the babbled on saying jiberish long enough they would stumble on a word from some god’s language, therefore obligating that god to grant a favor.

That is part of it, though some Pagan repetitions were directed to known gods for known reasons. I don’t believe all those saying the rosary are doing the same thing, but I do believe some are.

They rosary is not a long drawn out prayer. it is several prayers said in succession. There is a huge difference.

Understood, thank you!

 

[Kliska]

I understand you then, the Protestant’s perspective. What do you think of my posts #20 and #23. I came very much from such experience but realized that prayers are never meant to be confined to only one method. They say prayer is a bridge to God; God is just a prayer away; prayer is communication with God; it is a relationship with God, et al.

I honestly do agree. If people look at my profile, I’m a fan of the prayers of St. Patrick, or at least those attributed to him. I find meaning and inspirations in the words, and deep realization. I also respect the use and place of certain prayer styles. But to me, as with you, when I really feel I’m communicating (communing) with God it is extemporaneous prayer… sometimes resulting in just bowing down too overwhelmed, and going mute in the process.

Oh my God, and I also know that instantaneous prayer from the heart can be really repetitive.

I agree, and they can often turn that way even if we say a similar prayer say before we go to sleep. If we aren’t careful (“even” us protestants lol) easily slip into vain prayer.

double posts

REPETITION!!!

 

[sousley]

Does anyone believe that Peter or Paul sat and said the Rosary on a set of beads (after Mary’s passing or assumption of course)? Obviously, from particular protestant perspective that would be a fairly important aspect to all of this.

I hear that kind of thing quite a bit; this is an ongoing thing with a family member. Catholics are forever being told that what they do is unscriptural even though when we point to the scripture, it falls on deaf ears. We know the rosary is rooted in scripture, there’s no point in debating that. But also, Jesus say, “therefore, thus shall you pray, Our Father…”. Many Catholics do this at least daily. Protestants, no. We know Peter and John prayed the hours, so did Jews and so do Moslems. But protestants, no. The Apostles fasted regularly. Catholics do. Protestants, no. The list goes on. So I really have struggled to understand the prospective that Catholics must adhere strictly to the Bible but Protestants can do things their own way. (That last sentence sounds a little snarky, I can’t figure out how to make it sound nice, sorry)

 

[Kliska]

I hear that kind of thing quite a bit; this is an ongoing thing with a family member. Catholics are forever being told that what they do is unscriptural even though when we point to the scripture, it falls on deaf ears. We know the rosary is rooted in scripture, there’s no point in debating that. But also, Jesus say, “therefore, thus shall you pray, Our Father…”. Many Catholics do this at least daily. Protestants, no. We know Peter and John prayed the hours, so did Jews and so do Moslems. But protestants, no. The Apostles fasted regularly. Catholics do. Protestants, no. The list goes on. So I really have struggled to understand the prospective that Catholics must adhere strictly to the Bible but Protestants can do things their own way. (That last sentence sounds a little snarky, I can’t figure out how to make it sound nice, sorry)

The simple way of trying to explain is that no, most protestants would not agree because we don’t see saying a rote prayer on the beads in scripture. We definitely see the words that are said (for the most part) in scripture, but not the technique, target (praying to Mary instead of God, or asking Mary to pray for us), timing, etc…

I would also point out that we do pray the form, or in the manner of the “Our Father” daily, and many strive to pray without ceasing with our lives, thoughts, words, faith, manner, etc… So it comes as a bit harsh to be denigrated by putting us lower in some regard than the prayer life of muslims praying to Allah. But, no worries, I understand your perspective.

Grace and Peace!

 

[Steveabrous]

Thank you for taking the time to type that all out. Just to clarify, they aren’t really concerns necessarily but rather clarifications of many protestants’ perspectives.

I am a former Protestant and I understand that the concern from protestant comes from love and, in my opinion, misunderstanding. But you seem to have a handle on it. I would rather you disagree with what we are doing then believe we are doing something we are not.

Yes, I had read of this, and it would again go back to the protestant idea of “back to the Bible” to see how it was in the first days, weeks, months, years of Pentecost.

Realize that this time period the apostles were still practicing Jews (with a twist of course). It wasn’t until later revelations that such practices were abondoned, and only after the destruction of the temple that Christianity considered it’self apart from Judaism

That looks very much like what my family and I believe to have been taught in the NT. I also had a best friend growing up that belongs to an interesting church, sometimes called the church of friends, though they call themselves by no name. They only meet in public buildings or homes and refuse to build a church. So, there are protestants that do try to hold to the earliest teachings and even the way the church operated while under duress.

That is very noble. But the early church operated that way out of necessity. It was small and persecuted. Though it may go back to this if our society dosen’t change

We tend to understand that too, but many see it against talking to those who have passed on (though we too believe they are living) for many believe it warns against such in scripture, and we are not told to go to them, but rather directly to God. In fact, if we want to say “hey” to any of our relatives in Christ who have passed on, many protestants will request that the Father pass on the greeting. Further, we aren’t told the the dead in Christ are able to hear all prayer from all people directing their prayers to them.

We too are forbiden from conjuring the dead,obviously saintly intercession is not considered conjuring the dead. To conjure the dead is to hold a conversation with them. When we do intercessory prayer we are not expecting a response from that person but rather from God. We do this, for one because, In the book of Revelations the angels and saints are shown delivering our prayers to the alter in heaven.

 

[sousley]

The simple way of trying to explain is that no, most protestants would not agree because we don’t see saying a rote prayer on the beads in scripture. We definitely see the words that are said (for the most part) in scripture, but not the technique, target (praying to Mary instead of God, or asking Mary to pray for us), timing, etc…

I would also point out that we do pray the form, or in the manner of the “Our Father” daily, and many strive to pray without ceasing with our lives, thoughts, words, faith, manner, etc… So it comes as a bit harsh to be denigrated by putting us lower in some regard than the prayer life of muslims praying to Allah. But, no worries, I understand your perspective.

Grace and Peace!

I should have clarified that I was speaking of antiquity, not manner of faith as all three fairly ancient; I wasn’t comparing Moslem belief to Catholic either. There was no intent of denigration. I was simply saying that those faiths in existence closer to the time of Christ’s incarnation share share similar forms, whereas ones that have formed later, especially American made, tend to have rejected many of these.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

That’s very often true. Praying the Rosary is not part of the Lutheran faith experience, though it is in other parts of the world, and is very much a part of our history, so many simply know little about it. Some of the traditional practices of Lutherans were lost in the crossing of the Atlantic to America, for any number of reasons.
Below is a picture of Martin Chemnitz, the great second generation Lutheran theologian. Notice what is in his hand.
Jon

I know there are “Lutheran” rosaries [also Anglican rosaries] but one rarely sees non-Roman Catholics praying the rosary; not even sure if Orthodox use rosaries. But I have prayed the Angelus with Lutherans and some Lutheran theologians embrace the full recitation of the Hail Mary. I came across some photos of a Lutheran parish in Texas named Holy Mary of Guadalupe; the one below shows a woman holding up a rosary at the blessing of the palms.

 

[Kliska]

I am a former Protestant and I understand that the concern from protestant comes from love and, in my opinion, misunderstanding. But you seem to have a handle on it. I would rather you disagree with what we are doing then believe we are doing something we are not.

There are indeed many misunderstandings between groups. I understand and applaud any attempt to dialogue and clear those up. I fully think that many protestants don’t truly understand the teachings of the RCC on various topics and practices.

Realize that this time period the apostles were still practicing Jews (with a twist of course). It wasn’t until later revelations that such practices were abondoned, and only after the destruction of the temple that Christianity considered it’self apart from Judaism

That time period is fascinating to me. There is much we can learn by delving into those practices rooted in Jewish perspectives and to see it play out amongst those like Peter, Paul, James, etc… It makes me sad, however, to see certain protestant groups going down the path of the “Hebrew Roots” movement.

That is very noble. But the early church operated that way out of necessity. It was small and persecuted. Though it may go back to this if our society dosen’t change

Truth!

We too are forbiden from conjuring the dead,obviously saintly intercession is not considered conjuring the dead. To conjure the dead is to hold a conversation with them. When we do intercessory prayer we are not expecting a response from that person but rather from God. We do this, for one because, In the book of Revelations the angels and saints are shown delivering our prayers to the alter in heaven.

And that is one way that may protestants and Catholics do differ; in interpreting those pertinent verses and what it mean to pray, beseech, talk to, commune with, etc… The way I understand it, is that a truly practicing Catholic that is following teaching would not expect the power or response to come via the power of the Saint, rather from God answering prayer. Protestants in general tend to be more cautious in invoking the departed and tend to go straight to the Father.

 

[sousley]

I know there are “Lutheran” rosaries [also Anglican rosaries] but one rarely sees non-Roman Catholics praying the rosary; not even sure if Orthodox use rosaries. But I have prayed the Angelus with Lutherans and some Lutheran theologians embrace the full recitation of the Hail Mary. I came across some photos of a Lutheran parish in Texas named Holy Mary of Guadalupe; the one below shows a woman holding up a rosary at the blessing of the palms.

That’s cool. What is the guy holding the thurible, is that a server or a deacon?

 

[Kliska]

I should have clarified that I was speaking of antiquity, not manner of faith as all three fairly ancient; I wasn’t comparing Moslem belief to Catholic either. There was no intent of denigration. I was simply saying that those faiths in existence closer to the time of Christ’s incarnation share share similar forms, whereas ones that have formed later, especially American made, tend to have rejected many of these.

There was some tendency in Islam to “mimic” or co-opt a more Jewish frame of reference in some of their practices. Many protestants don’t see a lot of the liturgical aspects of Judaism being called for for the new believers in Christ, esp. the Gentiles. So I do understand the RCC way of looking at would be different. As I said, no worries.

Grace and peace!

 

[Steveabrous]

Protestants in general tend to be more cautious in invoking the departed and tend to go straight to the Father.

Trust me. I am a former protestant, and my wife is protestant, so I am very ecuminicle.

What comes to my mind when Protestants say we go straight to the Father, of God or Jesus is does your church have a prayer list. A list of people to pray for? Why do you not tell them to leave you out of it and go straight to the Father themselves. I’m asking in all sincerity I hope that doesn’t come across as rude.

 

[phil19034]

We tend to understand that too, but many see it against talking to those who have passed on (though we too believe they are living) for many believe it warns against such in scripture, and we are not told to go to them, but rather directly to God. In fact, if we want to say “hey” to any of our relatives in Christ who have passed on, many protestants will request that the Father pass on the greeting. Further, we aren’t told the the dead in Christ are able to hear all prayer from all people directing their prayers to them.

To clarify the Catholic position on this, only saints can hear our prayers. Souls in purgatory and hell cannot.

A saint is a soul in Heaven. A cannonized saint is someone we know is in Heaven because of miracles performed by Jesus based on the intercession of the saint.

Catholics are also warned against communioning with dead family members because they might not be in Heaven. There is a big difference between the communing with saints and conjuring spirits. The later is a mortal sin.

Why don’t we simply to straight to God? We do. But sometimes we simply ask Mary and/or the Saints to pray for us too. We do this because Jesus himself said that sometimes the Father does not hear our prayers when we are pure of heart or in a state of Grace. So we ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us too.

Finally, regarding some of the “Back to the Bible” comments. The Catholic Church, in her Dogma, history, and Traditions contain the full revelation of God’s will. The Bible itself says that not all of the Lord’s teachings are in the Bible. Those remaining lessons were taught directly to the Apostles, who passed them on to the Bishops. Also, each time Mary has appeared to us she has passed on information from Christ. While, there will be no more prophets, the Lord still revels Himself to us all the time. Whether it be via mystic visions, appearances of Mary, appearances of Saints, divine miracles, exorcisms, etc.

Finally, Mary herself - at Fatima, instructed us to add the Fatima Prayer as the last prayer for each Rosary Decade. For those of you who do not know it, here is that prayer:

Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fire of hell; lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.

God Bless.

 

[JonNC]

For a non-apostolic perspective I don’t have anything against pleading with God. When I’m in desperation and begging God for help I’ll sometimes repeat my plea over and over like the woman to the unrighteous judge. However, setting a certain number of times one has decided to say a prayer to a person seems less sincere.

To think, “I’m going to ask Mary [X] amount of times” I don’t see how this is beneficial or sincere. How tracking how many times I am going to pray somehow helps my prayer seems superstitious to me.

I, personally, wouldn’t question the sincerity.

Jon

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Can’t I meditate on the mysteries without calling on Mary?

 

[Kliska]

Trust me. I am a former protestant, and my wife is protestant, so I am very ecuminicle.

What comes to my mind when Protestants say we go straight to the Father, of God or Jesus is does your church have a prayer list. A list of people to pray for? Why do you not tell them to leave you out of it and go straight to the Father themselves. I’m asking in all sincerity I hope that doesn’t come across as rude.

No problem! The way we see it is that the person next to us is there face-to-face, and is in this physical existence along side of us. We are indeed commanded to pray for one another as well. The belief is the gathering together of physical believers is a visual, physical reminder of Christ’s body, even though we fully admit those dead in Christ are as well only in the invisible sense. We aren’t told in scripture the abilities of the dead in Christ. We don’t know if they hear all prayers from all people at the same time, so, in essence we are showing that only God has certain attributes.

Plus, going back to the “Our Father” prayer, or communing with the supernatural, is directed to God the Father, through the Son, under direction and help of the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is thus represented in the prayer. To add in another human makes Protestants nervous and we don’t really see that in scripture. When we see prayer it is to God, and the people in the NT don’t seem to be talking to those who have passed away.

Since we also don’t believe in Purgatory, or the idea of a difference in “Sainthood” between believers (we are all saints and have the same standing with the Lord from the majority protestant perspective), there is no actual need to breach what we see as scriptural prohibition in communicating directly with those who have passed on. We see Jesus’ death as opening direct connection to God and thus in a sense I think we try to honor that aspect of the sacrifice in going directly to the throne itself.

 

[sousley]

Sure all prayer is good. We use a rosary to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet too. There is a separate one but only a bead difference. You might like the addition of the Luminous Mysteries as well. I don’t see why you can’t swap the Fatima Prayer if you want or just “have mercy on me, a sinner”.

 

[MaryT777]

Excellent question! :clapping:

Agreed.

 

[petra22]

Along with what Jon points out, many of us have a “thing” against rote prayer, repetitive prayer, the use of counting beads, directing prayer toward anyone other that God even if just asking for intercession, etc… those of us that feel that way see these things as not being biblical. If you want a different protestant perspective written up in an article, you can look it up on “Got Questions?” as well.

But really, saying the decades is like keeping time. Take time to say ten Hail Mary’s but spend that time thinking about Jesus being born in Bethlehem. Isn’t it amazing that Mary and Joseph were called there by a census. They left the clothing they had prepared for the baby, probably planning on a quick trip… oops. But it was foretold that was to be the place… and who was there? The shepherds, the angels, the people who were so numerous that there was no room in the inn. How close was this to her cousin Elizabeth? Would Mary have passed through here during her previous visit? How many details can you contemplate on while keeping time saying ten Hail Mary’s??? And it doesn’t hurt to ask Mary to pray for us 10 times now and at the hour of our death… Amen. It’s not JUST rote, repetitive…

 

[dronald]

Trust me. I am a former protestant, and my wife is protestant, so I am very ecuminicle.

What comes to my mind when Protestants say we go straight to the Father, of God or Jesus is does your church have a prayer list. A list of people to pray for? Why do you not tell them to leave you out of it and go straight to the Father themselves. I’m asking in all sincerity I hope that doesn’t come across as rude.

This is a good, honest question.

I’m not opposed to asking Mary for intercession (again, if I personally believed it possible) based on your question. So I can imagine that if I did believe it possible I would ask her to pray for me. I wouldn’t close my eyes and ask tons and tons of times in a repetitious way because that’s not how we ask others to pray for us. When I ask someone to pray for me I simply ask that person to pray for me.