The Rosary - What is Not Understood?

[Judas_Thaddeus]

…We do this, for one because, In the book of Revelations the
angels and saints are shown delivering our prayers to the alter
in heaven.

That is so intriguing! I had no idea, I just looked it up and found it:And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four
and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them
harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

• (Revelation 5:8)

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Can’t I meditate on the mysteries without calling on Mary?

Sometimes you could, I guess, but chanting also focuses the mind.
Remember again the Wedding at Cana also. Is Mary’s intercession
not so evident? It wasn’t Jesus’ hour, but he performed a miracle an-
yway, and it might not ever have happened had those men not gone
to Jesus first. Mary wants to lead us to Christ, so do not leave her
out of your relationship with Jesus.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

, I wouldn’t close my eyes and ask tons and tons of times in a repetitious way because that’s not how we ask others to pray for us. When I ask someone to pray for me I simply ask that person to pray for me.

Reminder: Jesus talks about persistence of prayer.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I really feel very uncomfortable calling on and focusing on Mary. Can I meditate on the mysteries while saying the Jesus Prayer or Lords Prayer?

Let’s think of it this way: When we accept Jesus as our Savior, the Son of the Living God,
etc, we become adopted as Children of the Father, Jesus becomes our Brother, so where
does that leave Mary? She’s our Mother (not divine). If we want to have a relationship with
Jesus (and a good one at that), we have to welcome Mary into the family as well.

Jesus also, if you read carefully, gave is own mother to the whole world
to be our mother as well. Where? When? On the Cross, of course.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I have no quarrel with the actual texts of the Rosary. The Pater Noster, the Gloria Patri, the Credo in Deum, and even the Ave Maria are fine prayers, in themselves. However, the specific arrangement of those prayers called “the Rosary” holds no attraction for me. The whole arrangement of beads and “decades” and “mysteries,” as well as the name “Rosary” itself, just strikes me as kind of too sentimental and feminine, if that makes any sense.

Let’s make this clear: The Mysteries are the great events in the life and ministry of Jesus,
and their purpose in the Rosary is for us to contemplate as we pray Ave Maria. Can’t have
a problem with that, right?

As for the term Rosary,
I recommend this link
for you:
campus.udayton.edu/mary/questions/yq2/yq346.htm
I think I know where you’re coming from though, I don’t agree, but I think you
need to do more research before denouncing the Rosary as too sentimental
and feminine to include in this form of worship to God

 

[dronald]

Reminder: Jesus talks about persistence of prayer.

To God, yes.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Many protestants are hesitant to concede this, for there is not really evidence of this in scripture.

Oh your wrong! I just recently found this out from another responder in this tread: And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four
and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them
harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

• (Revelation 5:8)
  Cool, right?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Believing that symbolism can somehow benefit a prayer is superstitious though. If your argument is that we should pray [X] amount of times based on symbolism as if it’s somehow beneficial then you’re being very superstitious.

Again, and I want to make this clear for anyone who joins in late; I’m not saying it’s bad, I’m saying I don’t see any benefit.

Sometimes it’s superstitious, I’ll agree to that, but recall Jonah in the Whale. How long was
he in there? Three Days. How long did Jesus lay in the tomb? Three Days. How long did the
Israelites have to follow Moses before reaching the Promised Land? Forty Years. How long
did Jesus go into the desert where he was tempted by Satan? Forty Days. How long was it
between the Resurrection and Ascension? FORTY DAYS.

You can’t rule the power of numbers out completely.
God certainly attributes meaning to numbers, like in
the number Seven for Completion.

 

[pocohombre]

Let’s think of it this way: When we accept Jesus as our Savior, the Son of the Living God,
etc, we become adopted as Children of the Father, Jesus becomes our Brother, so where
does that leave Mary? She’s our Mother (not divine). If we want to have a relationship with
Jesus (and a good one at that), we have to welcome Mary into the family as well.

Jesus also, if you read carefully, gave is own mother to the whole world
to be our mother as well. Where? When? On the Cross, of course.

I think in a sense Jesus is our everything, brother, mother, sister, father .But in reality He is our betrothed, we are the bride. In that regard Mary is our mother in law. Yes we are sons and daughters of God, making Mary our sister, our sister in Christ,and in this the earliest fathers attest. Have a hard time with “welcoming Mary into the family”, reminds me of Greek mythology. Sounds to “familiar” as if we are bringing diety down to our level though He did come down to us, but to raise us up to His level. A bit like the Transfiguration, and the temptation to misappropriate the significance.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I think in a sense Jesus is our everything, brother, mother, sister, father .But in reality He is our betrothed, we are the bride. In that regard Mary is our mother in law. Yes we are sons and daughters of God, making Mary our sister, our sister in Christ,and in this the earliest fathers attest. Have a hard time with “welcoming Mary into the family”, reminds me of Greek mythology. Sounds to “familiar” as if we are bringing diety down to our level though He did come down to us, but to raise us up to His level. A bit like the Transfiguration, and the temptation to misappropriate the significance.

I totally see where you’re going. There are various ways we relate to each other and
to God. In the Old Testament, it asks have we not all One Father, has not One God
created us? That doesn’t mean we count ourselves as God’s children, however. Con-
text is always important, as there are various categories of relationships.

Don’t mix the salt and sugar, is what I’m saying here.

It is important to avoid Greek Mythology, though a woman bearing a God-Man sounds
pretty close to that already, but we know the difference. Why would it be so challeng-
ing then to differentiate the Catholic view of Mary from Greek Mythology.

Also, intriguing
food for thought:
It is said that the Devil has inspired various mythologies similar to TRUTH ahead of time
so as to confuse the world in various ways. Dionysusians saw Christians and concluded
that they must be copy-catting their god Dionysus, mixing him up with the God of Israel
also. You appear to be looking at our view of Mary and feel withdrawn from that because
it sounds too much like Greek Mythology. This is why the Catholic Church relies heavily
on Scripture when considering Mary.

 

[Dorothy]

Does anyone believe that Peter or Paul sat and said the Rosary on a set of beads (after Mary’s passing or assumption of course)? Obviously, from particular protestant perspective that would be a fairly important aspect to all of this.

At that time the Rosary was not yet set up as a form of prayer.

To me the Rosary can be a contemplative prayer because we learn to meditate on the Mysteries of Our Lord Jesus Christ, while holding Mary’s hand, (so to speak)…Mary who is His perfect disciple.

I believe you are familiar with the mysteries of the Rosary which we are to meditate on while saying the Our Father and Hail Mary prayers? The life of our Lord Jesus Christ is the centerpiece of the Rosary.
Mary magnifies the Lord, as she says in Sacred Scripture.

One can be a beginner and learn the Rosary, and with the help of the grace of God and the person’s cooperation, that prayer has the potential of sanctifying the person, even to the heights! How long that should take depends on the Lord and the person who is praying.

I do appreciate your sincerity and non-hostile tone!

Peace in Jesus,

Dorothy

 

[Dorothy]

I really feel very uncomfortable calling on and focusing on Mary. Can I meditate on the mysteries while saying the Jesus Prayer or Lords Prayer?

Of course you can!

We Catholics are only trying to explain about the Rosary and why it means so much to us. The Blessed Virgin Mary…we see her as the New Eve, and Jesus is the New Adam! We do believe she is one with the heart of Jesus and that she magnifies the Lord. I believe in her special spiritual motherhood.

 

[Dorothy]

I have no quarrel with the actual texts of the Rosary. The Pater Noster, the Gloria Patri, the Credo in Deum, and even the Ave Maria are fine prayers, in themselves. However, the specific arrangement of those prayers called “the Rosary” holds no attraction for me. The whole arrangement of beads and “decades” and “mysteries,” as well as the name “Rosary” itself, just strikes me as kind of too sentimental and feminine, if that makes any sense.

I believe I understand what you are saying. The Rosary is something to hold onto, and is a great help for many in their focusing on the Lord and the wonders of His Life.

There is no reason why you can’t pray vocally, interiorly, meditatively, or be in contemplation of these mysteries while not counting prayers. In fact, if the Lord catches us up to Himself while praying the Rosary alone, we should just sit in His Presence and listen to Him.

 

[JonNC]

Sometimes you could, I guess, but chanting also focuses the mind.
Remember again the Wedding at Cana also.** Is Mary’s intercession
not so evident?** It wasn’t Jesus’ hour, but he performed a miracle an-
yway, and it might not ever have happened had those men not gone
to Jesus first. Mary wants to lead us to Christ, so do not leave her
out of your relationship with Jesus.

Judas,
Keep in mind that for a Lutheran, it is never a question of Mary’s intercession. We confess that she and the saints do. The question for a Lutheran is, is there a command, example, and promise attached to invocation of the saints in Heaven. One could say that, in 2Macc 15 there is an example, in a dream. Otherwise, these seem to be lacking.

The Blessed Virgin leads us to Christ in the same way the other saints do, though example is greatest. And that is by her example to us.

Jon

 

[Kliska]

No rote prayer? That’s memorized prayer, right? We have the psalms. Jesus gave us the
Lord’s Prayer. The beads mean nothing (as far as I am aware). If you are good with your
fingers or can even keep mental count of your prayers (though the latter takes away from
contemplation on Jesus), then you don’t need the beads.

Psalms are hymns, and we all have hymns. The Our Father is a model of prayer for most of us Protestants, or something to recite one time through, there is no need to repeat it numerous times, over and over, all in a row. When Jesus have it to us, there was no doubt to Whom it was to be directed.

I must correct you on the last
statement in the first paragraph, for when you say “Mary instead of God,” it calls on us
to never ask our friends or family to pray for us. This differentiating between Praying to
Mary, Saints, or Angels and Praying to God is very necessary, I think.

Again, there is a definite difference in most protestant perspectives between speaking to a flesh and blood individual standing next to you, as in “I’m going through a rough patch, please pray” and the form, content, invocation and repetition to those who have passed on. Supernatural communication is to be, in our thinking, the domain of God; prayer, communing, talking to the Father, through or in the name of the Son, with the help of the Spirit.

Exactly. No matter how differently can we word our prayers, eventually they would be just about the same things. Words are limited in expression and so is our ability to always say something different.

Just how many times we pray, " I just want to thank you and praise you Lord," for example. Probably I would just start using that almost in all my prayers and it is not much less repetitive. What different is it when I say the Lord’s prayer which also can describe what I mean to convey and thus becomes my own prayer from the heart?

I guess what I’m seeing is this; I don’t sit and say the same statement over and over for an hour, if I start every prayer the same, that is a different matter, though it can turn vain if I do it out of instinct and not out of mindfulness.

 

[Kliska]

Oh your wrong! I just recently found this out from another responder in this tread: And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four
and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them
harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

• (Revelation 5:8)
  Cool, right?

It is indeed cool, and beautiful. Many protestants don’t interpret this passage to mean that other saints are collecting the prayers of the saints, but rather all of those prayers of all the saints are collected by God. All we know that here are vials, and they are full of saints’ prayers. That would be my prayers, your prayers, Mary’s prayers, etc… In short there isn’t much we can actually glean on the issue looking at this verse.

At that time the Rosary was not yet set up as a form of prayer.

And that is one of the protestant “hang ups” about praying it.

To me the Rosary can be a contemplative prayer because we learn to meditate on the Mysteries of Our Lord Jesus Christ, while holding Mary’s hand, (so to speak)…Mary who is His perfect disciple.

As others have pointed out, we don’t tend to hold Mary up above the Apostles, just as an example, or above the other saints. We do see her as a model but not really to be interacted with on a different level than other fellow created beings. Jesus loved and honored His mother, I do as well. But He pointed out that those who do the will of God are also considered as His mother is.

Some protestants say that thinking on Christ, His Life, Death, and Resurrection are indeed important, but we should then think on those things with no one else added in, it is something we can do directly.

I do appreciate your sincerity and non-hostile tone!

Peace in Jesus,

Dorothy

Thank you for your insights! Grace and Peace to you!

Judas,
Keep in mind that for a Lutheran, it is never a question of Mary’s intercession. We confess that she and the saints do. The question for a Lutheran is, is there a command, example, and promise attached to invocation of the saints in Heaven. One could say that, in 2Macc 15 there is an example, in a dream. Otherwise, these seem to be lacking.

The Blessed Virgin leads us to Christ in the same way the other saints do, though example is greatest. And that is by her example to us.

Jon

Many other protestants, such as myself, see it the same, that she is indeed included in our minds with the her fellow heroes of faith. I think it is unfortunate that many protestants deal with the idea rather harshly instead of with charity.

 

[aidanbradypop]

It seems I am way late to the thread but I will chime in anyways. Better late that never I guess.

We have Anglican prayer beads aka Christian prayer beads (some Lutherans and Methodist have adopted/adapted them)

It is similar to the Catholic rosary, but many do not use prayers to the Blessed Mother.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Judas,
Keep in mind that for a Lutheran, it is never a question of Mary’s intercession. We confess that she and the saints do. The question for a Lutheran is, is there a command, example, and promise attached to invocation of the saints in Heaven. One could say that, in 2Macc 15 there is an example, in a dream. Otherwise, these seem to be lacking.

The Blessed Virgin leads us to Christ in the same way the other saints do, though example is greatest. And that is by her example to us.

Jon

Well what do you mean by “invocation”? I might be mistaken to think you find it in the
ceremonial magic sense ("*might *be mistaken" may be too mild). I just need a confirm-
ation on what you mean by that word.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Psalms are hymns, and we all have hymns. The Our Father is a model of prayer for most of us Protestants, or something to recite one time through, there is no need to repeat it numerous times, over and over, all in a row. When Jesus have it to us, there was no doubt to Whom it was to be directed.

Oy, but that statement is once again discredit-
ing two parables made by Jesus regarding per-
sistence of prayer.

Again, there is a definite difference in most protestant perspectives between speaking to a flesh and blood individual standing next to you, as in “I’m going through a rough patch, please pray” and the form, content, invocation and repetition to those who have passed on. Supernatural communication is to be, in our thinking, the domain of God; prayer, communing, talking to the Father, through or in the name of the Son, with the help of the Spirit.

Again someone used the word “invocation,” what does that mean to you exactly, as it
isn’t in my usage when asking for the saints to pray for me. I feel that you are bringing
division to the Body of Christ, made up of all believers, with that thick line called Death,
which even Paul says brings no division.

I guess what I’m seeing is this; I don’t sit and say the same statement over and over for an hour, if I start every prayer the same, that is a different matter, though it can turn vain if I do it out of instinct and not out of mindfulness.

THAT is actually a good attitude in my opinion.
I don’t think though that this applies well to the
Rosary.

 

[JonNC]

Well what do you mean by “invocation”? I might be mistaken to think you find it in the
ceremonial magic sense ("*might *be mistaken" may be too mild). I just need a confirm-
ation on what you mean by that word.

Invocation here means a request for intercession.
Jon