The Rosary - What is Not Understood?

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Invocation here means a request for intercession.
Jon

Ah, good, we’re on the same page!

 

[Kliska]

Oy, but that statement is once again discredit-
ing two parables made by Jesus regarding per-
sistence of prayer.

I see a difference even in everyday life between persistence and vain repetition.

Again someone used the word “invocation,” what does that mean to you exactly, as it
isn’t in my usage when asking for the saints to pray for me. I feel that you are bringing
division to the Body of Christ, made up of all believers, with that thick line called Death,
which even Paul says brings no division.

As Jon says, it is a request for intercession, and by invoking, I also mean picking which precise person to go to for a specific help. I have to quibble a bit about the issues of death… it is a difference. Sheer logic and physics and reality dictate that death causes a difference. We slough off this mortal physical coil and won’t be reunited with it til the resurrection. That is a difference. By definition then, there is a difference when I’m dealing with another breathing physical being standing beside me on this plane of existence, with my knowledge of their limitations, knowledge, etc… vs. those living with Lord.

I don’t see any Apostle calling out to those who have gone before them to be with the Lord.

THAT is actually a good attitude in my opinion.
I don’t think though that this applies well to the
Rosary.

I think the way some pray it is a problem, others probably not, but it can apply equally to protestants or Catholics.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

…I have to quibble a bit about the issues of death… it is a difference. Sheer logic and physics and reality dictate that death causes a difference. We slough off this mortal physical coil and won’t be reunited with it til the resurrection. That is a difference. By definition then, there is a difference when I’m dealing with another breathing physical being standing beside me on this plane of existence, with my knowledge of their limitations, knowledge, etc… vs. those living with Lord…

Is that not a real limited view of death? especially when you throw physics into the
equation? because I don’t believe physics has a place anywhere beyond the phys-
ical world. I am of the opinion that we in corrupted flesh are limited in certain ways
that prevent us from perceiving the spiritual things, but those living with the LORD,
they are not bound to the same limitations. I urge you to consider the following:
For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor
principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things
to come, nor might, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other
creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of
God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

• (Romans 8:38-39)

 

[Kliska]

Is that not a real limited view of death?

No, it is the reality. Nothing I said is false. It may be limited in description, but it is accurate. There is a literal difference between me and those in Heaven currently. Talking to others on other planes of existence is going to be inherently different.

especially when you throw physics into the
equation? because I don’t believe physics has a place anywhere beyond the phys-
ical world. I am of the opinion that we in corrupted flesh are limited in certain ways
that prevent us from perceiving the spiritual things, but those living with the LORD,
they are not bound to the same limitations.

My answer is that this is unknown by us and unknowable at this point. We don’t have enough info to fill in the gaps in our knowledge.

I urge you to consider the following:
For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor
principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things
to come, nor might, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other
creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of
God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

• (Romans 8:38-39)

But, that kind of backs up my perspective. This is reference to God. The Lord literally never leaves us nor forsakes us and is always present with us. That is a characteristic directly told to us about God. Whether I be dead or alive, the Lord is with me. This isn’t referencing the saints, but rather the love God.

 

[TexanKnight]

I understand, but shouldn’t one go and pray to God and spend as much time with Him as one’s conscience desires? I can spend three hours with my God but only because my love for Him. How is pre-planning “tomorrow I will say [X] amount of prayers followed by [Y] number of prayers the next day.” While directing them to Mary beneficial?

I guess the same as pre-planning, “we will go to church tomorrow at 8am”.

 

[TexanKnight]

I really feel very uncomfortable calling on and focusing on Mary. Can I meditate on the mysteries while saying the Jesus Prayer or Lords Prayer?

Asking Mary to pray for me is not “focusing on her”.

In all honesty, when saying the Rosary, I focus on the Visitation of Gabriel, the Visit to Elizabeth, the Nativity, the Blessing, the Finding in the Temple, The Crucifixion and all the parts of that, the Resurrection, the The Ascension, the Etc. etc.

It is like if I ask YOU to pray for me over and over as I contemplate on God.

 

[Millie123]

I think the way some pray it is a problem, others probably not, but it can apply equally to protestants or Catholics.

I would like to politely say that I feel extremely confused by this statement of yours that “I think the way some pray it is a problem”
Can you give a specific example in which you have witnessed the rosary being a problem for how some people pray it? I pray the rosary daily, sometimes quietly in my room. Other times I pray a decade with my son. Many times I see a group of people pray the rosary before mass. Other times I see people praying the rosary during adoration.

I know that you’ve been talking about vain repetition…But, how do you know the hearts of people during their private prayers, such as when people privately pray the rosary? How have you determined that a Catholic is praying the rosary vainly, and you determine that their prayers are a problem? Especially since you are just an outside observer not able to look into the hearts of people or read their minds as they pray?

Can you please just give me an example?
Sorry if this post sounds snarky, I mean this post in kindness.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I guess the same as pre-planning, “we will go to church tomorrow at 8am”.

Excellent come back.
Let me add holidays to that too, like Easter and Christmas.

 

[adf417]

Asking Mary to pray for me is not “focusing on her”.

In all honesty, when saying the Rosary, I focus on the Visitation of Gabriel, the Visit to Elizabeth, the Nativity, the Blessing, the Finding in the Temple, The Crucifixion and all the parts of that, the Resurrection, the The Ascension, the Etc. etc.

It is like if I ask YOU to pray for me over and over as I contemplate on God.

Especially when you incorporate it with the scriptural rosary and meditate on each scripture as shown here…rosaryarmy.newevangelizers.com/prayers/scriptural-rosary-joyful-mysteries/ between every Hail Mary.

Peace!!!

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by Kliska View Post
Does anyone believe that Peter or Paul sat and said the Rosary on a set of beads (after Mary’s passing or assumption of course)? Obviously, from particular protestant perspective that would be a fairly important aspect to all of this.

And does anyone believe Peter or Paul had altar calls? Or held to baptism was for adults only? Or passed crackers and grape juice for the Lord’s Supper? Obviously from a Catholic perspective that would be a fairly aspect to all of this.

 

[pablope]

Originally Posted by Kliska View Post
Does anyone believe that Peter or Paul sat and said the Rosary on a set of beads (after Mary’s passing or assumption of course)? Obviously, from particular protestant perspective that would be a fairly important aspect to all of this.

Peter and Paul did not have Bibles either…should you also ditch your Bible then?

 

[GaryTaylor]

I see a difference even in everyday life between persistence and vain repetition.

The repetitive, contemplative, meditation, calms and clears the mind and enhances the focus on the mysteries which coincide with the decades. It is persistence and perseverance in the long run.

For example a person who has anxiety and uses deep breathing techniques, this would be similar. Then they would focus on that which calms them while deep breathing.

So the repetition wouldn’t be in vain, it would be persistence, perseverance and goal orientated.

 

[Kliska]

I would like to politely say that I feel extremely confused by this statement of yours that “I think the way some pray it is a problem”
Can you give a specific example in which you have witnessed the rosary being a problem for how some people pray it? I pray the rosary daily, sometimes quietly in my room. Other times I pray a decade with my son. Many times I see a group of people pray the rosary before mass. Other times I see people praying the rosary during adoration.

I know that you’ve been talking about vain repetition…But, how do you know the hearts of people during their private prayers, such as when people privately pray the rosary? How have you determined that a Catholic is praying the rosary vainly, and you determine that their prayers are a problem? Especially since you are just an outside observer not able to look into the hearts of people or read their minds as they pray?

Can you please just give me an example?
Sorry if this post sounds snarky, I mean this post in kindness.

Do you believe that all people that pray the rosary do so with the same mindset as you? Do you believe it is possible that there are individuals who pray it in a vainly repetitious way? I fully believe there are protestants who pray in similar fashion. Do I believe I’ve witnessed this? Yes. But that doesn’t further your understanding of it, if you disagree, because it is a subjective call.

No snarkiness taken!

And does anyone believe Peter or Paul had altar calls?

I don’t believe in altar calls.

Or held to baptism was for adults only?

Perhaps they did indeed. But that would be argumentative indeed.

Or passed crackers and grape juice for the Lord’s Supper?

We use wine and Passover Matzoh bread.

Peter and Paul did not have Bibles either…should you also ditch your Bible then?

Peter and Paul had scripture, we have scripture. Peter and Paul were busy writing some of said scripture.

The repetitive, contemplative, meditation, calms and clears the mind and enhances the focus on the mysteries which coincide with the decades. It is persistence and perseverance in the long run.

For example a person who has anxiety and uses deep breathing techniques, this would be similar. Then they would focus on that which calms them while deep breathing.

So the repetition wouldn’t be in vain, it would be persistence, perseverance and goal orientated.

It depends. One can venture too far into Eastern Meditative practices, or again, the practices of the Pagans, as the Lord says.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It depends. One can venture too far

It depends, I take that to mean you understand the point.

Second point of your reflective argument speaks in relative terms of paradigms outside the mysteries of the Lord.

Then the same argument within Christianity would for example be indicative of a Christian following a fringe denomination with fervor in a like manner?

 

[wmscott]

For me, when all is said and done, I would rather pray the rosary and ask the Blessed Mother to pray for me knowing she has her Sons ear rather than to ask someone who could for all practical purposes be on a fast track to hell. I still ask for prayers from time to time but the peace of mind in knowing that my prayers are heard by someone who is already there is much preferred.

 

[Kliska]

It depends, I take that to mean you understand the point.

Now you are confusing me. lol I do understand the point that you are making, but I don’t necessarily agree with it.

Second point of your reflective argument speaks in relative terms of paradigms outside the mysteries of the Lord.

If you are saying that if someone were not focusing on the mysteries in an mentally active sense, then, yes. If that’s not what you mean, you’ll have to help me out.

Then the same argument within Christianity would for example be indicative of a Christian following a fringe denomination with fervor in a like manner?

We probably have something different in mind with “fringe denomination.” For a clarifying example; Oneness Pentecostals… yes, if a Christian is following Oneness Pentecostalism with fervor, there’s a problem.

Please do forgive me if I’m being dense! It happens.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Now you are confusing me. lol I do understand the point that you are making, but I don’t necessarily agree with it.

If you are saying that if someone were not focusing on the mysteries in an mentally active sense, then, yes. If that’s not what you mean, you’ll have to help me out.

We probably have something different in mind with “fringe denomination.” For a clarifying example; Oneness Pentecostals… yes, if a Christian is following Oneness Pentecostalism with fervor, there’s a problem.

Please do forgive me if I’m being dense! It happens.

Fair enough, sounds good.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
And does anyone believe Peter or Paul had altar calls?

Kliska:
I don’t believe in altar calls.

No,but many other Protestants do. Where is that in the Bible?

Quote:
Or held to baptism was for adults only?

Kliska:
Perhaps they did indeed. But that would be argumentative indeed.

Nope! No where is baptism mandated for adults-only or children being of “age” to accept baptism in the NT. Logically the first baptisms involved adults due to the fact no cradle Christians existed.

Quote:
Or passed crackers and grape juice for the Lord’s Supper?

Kliska:
We use wine and Passover Matzoh bread.

And again…many use crackers and grape juice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablope
Peter and Paul did not have Bibles either…should you also ditch your Bible then?

Kliska:
Peter and Paul had scripture, we have scripture. Peter and Paul were busy writing some of said scripture.

Okay,but what Bible? There existed scores of written scripture. Peter and Paul had no canonized Bible in their hands.

 

[Reuben_J]

I see a difference even in everyday life between persistence and vain repetition.

So what do you think, is praying the Rosary vain repetition? If it is, how? There are a few posts earlier on on how Rosary is exactly prayed (knowing that many Protestants do not know what the Rosary is all about except from what they hear it from maybe another Protestants) - meditation on the Biblical mysteries, self reflection and examination, and asking for intercession. It may not even focusing on Mary at all.

 

[Kliska]

No,but many other Protestants do. Where is that in the Bible?

Remember, I’m a Protestant and believe people are answerable for their own practices. I don’t expect you to be answerable to those Roman Catholics that don’t follow church teaching.

Nope! No where is baptism mandated for adults-only or children being of “age” to accept baptism in the NT. Logically the first baptisms involved adults due to the fact no cradle Christians existed.

This is akin to what we call an appeal to ignorance. On the command side of things, I do see the command to have faith on Jesus and be baptized, an infant cannot have faith directed at Jesus in a salvific sense. An infant can be dedicated, but I see no compelling specifics in the Bible about baptizing babies. Again, I understand the RCC’s teaching on this, I just don’t agree with it.

And again…many use crackers and grape juice.

I can’t answer for them.

Okay,but what Bible? There existed scores of written scripture. Peter and Paul had no canonized Bible in their hands.

Did Peter and Paul recognize scripture? Sure they did. The Bible is a collection of manuscripts, we can clearly see that what they called scripture was integral to the spreading of the faith. Again, they were the ones writing bits of the scripture at the time, so no, they didn’t have the KJV in hand, no arguments there, but they most assuredly had scripture, as did Jesus.

So what do you think, is praying the Rosary vain repetition?

I believe it can be. Even if you remove the references to Mary, etc… it certainly can be. Further, as most can probably tell, I believe the form of prayer done on a rosary lends itself to the “hazard” of vain repetition.

If it is, how? There are a few posts earlier on on how Rosary is exactly prayed (knowing that many Protestants do not know what the Rosary is all about except from what they hear it from maybe another Protestants) - meditation on the Biblical mysteries, self reflection and examination, and asking for intercession. It may not even focusing on Mary at all.

Do you believe all RC’s pray the rosary with correct focus, intent, reflection, etc…?