The Rosary - What is Not Understood?

[Millie123]

Do you believe that all people that pray the rosary do so with the same mindset as you? Do you believe it is possible that there are individuals who pray it in a vainly repetitious way? I fully believe there are protestants who pray in similar fashion. Do I believe I’ve witnessed this? Yes. But that doesn’t further your understanding of it, if you disagree, because it is a subjective call.

No snarkiness taken!
.

There is nothing special about me. I would like to say again that I often suffer from spiritual dryness. Sometimes my catholic faith feels abundant and fruitful and then other times it feels very dry. Often times it comes in waves one week I feel so spiritual and prayer comes easily while it could be just a couple days later and my faith feels dry again I have to make a great effort to pray and my mind wonders abundently during my prayers. but I continue to persevere with my rosary even during my dry spells because it helps me spiritually. Even if my mind and meditation is not 100 percent present. And I have to make a conscious act of will to pray even when I dont want to. Sometimes doing something as simple as praying bedtime prayers with my 3.5 year old son can be a challenge. We just say a simple our father, hail mary and glory be at night. My son will say to me “mommy lets say our prayers” and I make an act of will to pray with him even if im tired and I feel dry even if I dont want to pray. We say our prayers.
My point, is this truly what jesus means when he talks about not making vain repetitions in prayer. When christ tells us not to pray in vain. Does that mean to only pray when we feel like it? When our mind doesnt wonder when pray? When it is not challenging for us then we can pray? When your mind and heart is not 100 percent present in your prayer life. Is that the time when we should be avoiding prayer? Is that what christ meant by telling us to not pray in vain? Lets me give you a simple example. Lets say you have a man who is struggling with his faith and belief in god. But still desires to overcome his spiritual droght.He is peresevering with praying a daily our father even though his mind and heart are not 100 percent in the prayer. Is he praying in vain? Is this truly christs message? To only pray when we want to?

 

[Steveabrous]

I believe it can be. Even if you remove the references to Mary, etc… it certainly can be. Further, as most can probably tell, I believe the form of prayer done on a rosary lends itself to the “hazard” of vain repetition.

The “Vain Repetition” Jesus warned about was that of the pagans who would babble jiberish for long periods of time in hopes that they would stumble on a word or two of a god’s language obligating that god to do a favor. There is no danger of that with the Rosary

Do you believe all RC’s pray the rosary with correct focus, intent, reflection, etc…?

It is not for us to judge another’s reflection, intent, etc. since we have no way of knowing. I believe Jesus warned against judging others

If done with the proper reflection, intent, etc it is good, then it is good and we shouldn’t judge it based on the idea that someone might not do it right.

 

[Kliska]

There is nothing special about me. I would like to say again that I often suffer from spiritual dryness. Sometimes my catholic faith feels abundant and fruitful and then other times it feels very dry. Often times it comes in waves one week I feel so spiritual and prayer comes easily while it could be just a couple days later and my faith feels dry again I have to make a great effort to pray and my mind wonders abundently during my prayers. but I continue to persevere with my rosary even during my dry spells because it helps me spiritually. Even if my mind and meditation is not 100 percent present. And I have to make a conscious act of will to pray even when I dont want to. Sometimes doing something as simple as praying bedtime prayers with my 3.5 year old son can be a challenge. We just say a simple our father, hail mary and glory be at night. My son will say to me “mommy lets say our prayers” and I make an act of will to pray with him even if im tired and I feel dry even if I dont want to pray. We say our prayers.
My point, is this truly what jesus means when he talks about not making vain repetitions in prayer. When christ tells us not to pray in vain. Does that mean to only pray when we feel like it? When our mind doesnt wonder when pray? When it is not challenging for us then we can pray? When your mind is 100 percent present in your prayer life. Is that the time when we should be avoiding prayer? Is that what christ meant? . because you’re praying in vain. Lets keep it simple. Lets say you have a man who is struggling with his faith and belief in god. But still desires to overcome his spiritual droght.He is peresevering with praying a daily our father even though his mind and heart are not 100 percent in the prayer. Is he praying in vain? Is this truly christs message? To only pray when we want to?

What you are describing wouldn’t be praying in vain, unless the words are just mouthed with no true faith behind them. I believe (and truly do correct me if I’m wrong!) that it is RC teaching that faith needs to accompany sacraments or sacramentals to be efficacious? The man that is struggling is praying with faith, even if “fingernail” faith, and is doing so to try to truly connect with God, so that isn’t vain.

The idea of vain repetition is that the same thing is chanted, prayed, etc… over and over so that the “gods” will hear it and respond. It becomes devoid of meaning in a sense, and becomes almost superstitious. I truly believe if it wasn’t possible for followers of Jesus to slip into this particular problem, He wouldn’t have warned us about it.

Paul’s aim is for us to pray without ceasing, and I do truly believe that is possible. If a rote prayer is helping others to truly do that for the right reasons in the right way, I have no issues with it.

The “Vain Repetition” Jesus warned about was that of the pagans who would babble jiberish for long periods of time in hopes that they would stumble on a word or two of a god’s language obligating that god to do a favor. There is no danger of that with the Rosary

From what I’ve studied that isn’t necessarily the exact meaning. In fact, there are many Pagan faiths that have vain repetition built into their worship practices. Obviously, to them they probably don’t think it is in vain, but God sees it differently.

It is not for us to judge another’s reflection, intent, etc. since we have no way of knowing. I believe Jesus warned against judging others

If done with the proper reflection, intent, etc it is good, then it is good and we shouldn’t judge it based on the idea that someone might not do it right.

We are not to judge another’s salvation, but Paul said to judge if someone is acting or teaching something that could be a stumbling block to others. My area of study was Psychology, and I’m relying on my experiences with others, and my learning of things like hypnosis, that repetitive movement, chanting, etc… can rapidly cause us to lose our hold on what we are supposed to be actively focused on.

I’m contending that in the history of Christendom, there have surely been some who prayed and fell into the sin that Jesus warns us about. And again, I believe there are just as many protestants who surely fit that bill too.

 

[pocohombre]

I totally see where you’re going. There are various ways we relate to each other and
to God. In the Old Testament, it asks have we not all One Father, has not One God
created us? That doesn’t mean we count ourselves as God’s children, however. Con-
text is always important, as there are various categories of relationships.

Don’t mix the salt and sugar, is what I’m saying here.

It is important to avoid Greek Mythology, though a woman bearing a God-Man sounds
pretty close to that already, but we know the difference. Why would it be so challeng-
ing then to differentiate the Catholic view of Mary from Greek Mythology.

Also, intriguing
food for thought:
It is said that the Devil has inspired various mythologies similar to TRUTH ahead of time
so as to confuse the world in various ways. Dionysusians saw Christians and concluded
that they must be copy-catting their god Dionysus, mixing him up with the God of Israel
also. You appear to be looking at our view of Mary and feel withdrawn from that because
it sounds too much like Greek Mythology. This is why the Catholic Church relies heavily
on Scripture when considering Mary.

Hello JT. Thanks for your thoughts. I agree to Satan’s tactics, and planting counterfeits ahead of time. I think he is challenged to present as much truth as possible but just not enough to for us to enter into new life. He loves to fool us with truth, 99.9% proof if possible. …Mixing sugar and salt is interesting. Not sure I get it, but that is what I feel happens with CC Marion view. It’s like I kiss my mother and sister on the cheek ,not on the lips.You know, you go “yuk’ on the lips?”,it is kind of repulsive. So we all want to get close to Mary, in spirit, as we do all our faith heroes, but you can go to far. You say “come on it’s mother” and I say “no, it’s future mother-in-law”. Can time with your betrothed even compare of time with the future mother -in-law ?..So your sugar is salt to me and my suagr is salt to you. The heart is deceitful and we must discern what is from God and what is from elsewhere. Yes we must not cast guilt by mere association, as in the Greek and Roman influences of the time. The Romans had a god for everyday I think. Sound familiar? How do we know it is the same worldly essence in a new Christian face? We know it is one of the enemies tactics. Our foundation (Judaism) was kept pure miraculously. Didn’t even want to put vowel in God’s names, yet David could wet his pillow in tears at night with such sweet, deep communion with the Lord. Abarham, Joseph, Moses,Sampson, Elijah, etc., etc. could not be invoked with such tears, that were alone for the Lord. …Luther sheds some light on our thoughts, “They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus devised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred from Christ to Mary, and then everyone turned from Christ to his particular saint. Can any one deny this? Is it not true ?” .Wikipedia also states Luther had a “passive” Mariology as compared to “active” invocation…Bottom line, with such wondrous access to the Father and Christ thru the Holy Spirit like no other dispensation, this is the least time for contemplating invoking spiritual heroes ( and it was not done before either). Lastly, giving you my legalistic, truthful salt I am sure there are greater saints than I who indeed have done such as I would not on this matter. Though in my opinion they would have been just as “great” without it. Blessings.

 

[sousley]

The “Vain Repetition” Jesus warned about was that of the pagans who would babble jiberish for long periods of time in hopes that they would stumble on a word or two of a god’s language obligating that god to do a favor. There is no danger of that with the Rosary

That is my understanding also. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t “vain repetition” a KJV innovation. That may be just something that I’ve thought to be true, but any older text and commentary I’ve seen just doesn’t really talk about repetition of words as much as “speak not much as the heathens do (nolite multum loqui)…don’t be like them for the Father knows what is needful for you before you ask”. The Our Father that He teaches is a series of short ejaculatory prayers.

As you say, the heathen manner was not necessarily repetitious as it was long-winded, hoping that the correct words would be uttered to compel the gods to comply. There would certainly be no point in repeating the wrong words over and over.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Hello JT. Thanks for your thoughts. I agree to Satan’s tactics, and planting counterfeits ahead of time. I think he is challenged to present as much truth as possible but just not enough to for us to enter into new life. He loves to fool us with truth, 99.9% proof if possible. …Mixing sugar and salt is interesting. Not sure I get it, but that is what I feel happens with CC Marion view. It’s like I kiss my mother and sister on the cheek ,not on the lips.You know, you go “yuk’ on the lips?”,it is kind of repulsive. So we all want to get close to Mary, in spirit, as we do all our faith heroes, but you can go to far. You say “come on it’s mother” and I say “no, it’s future mother-in-law”. Can time with your betrothed even compare of time with the future mother -in-law ?..So your sugar is salt to me and my suagr is salt to you. The heart is deceitful and we must discern what is from God and what is from elsewhere. Yes we must not cast guilt by mere association, as in the Greek and Roman influences of the time. The Romans had a god for everyday I think. Sound familiar? How do we know it is the same worldly essence in a new Christian face? We know it is one of the enemies tactics. Our foundation (Judaism) was kept pure miraculously. Didn’t even want to put vowel in God’s names, yet David could wet his pillow in tears at night with such sweet, deep communion with the Lord. Abarham, Joseph, Moses,Sampson, Elijah, etc., etc. could not be invoked with such tears, that were alone for the Lord. …Luther sheds some light on our thoughts, “They fashioned Christ into a judge and thus devised a tyrant for anguished consciences, so that all comfort and confidence was transferred from Christ to Mary, and then everyone turned from Christ to his particular saint. Can any one deny this? Is it not true ?” .Wikipedia also states Luther had a “passive” Mariology as compared to “active” invocation…Bottom line, with such wondrous access to the Father and Christ thru the Holy Spirit like no other dispensation, this is the least time for contemplating invoking spiritual heroes ( and it was not done before either). Lastly, giving you my legalistic, truthful salt I am sure there are greater saints than I who indeed have done such as I would not on this matter. Though in my opinion they would have been just as “great” without it. Blessings.

Well stated.

I am probably more acquainted with Roman Catholics than many other non-Catholic posters due to extensive worship in RC churches by way of extended family and an early exposure to religious communities.

The Rosary is a helpful tool for prayer and meditation similar to walking the labyrinth in cathedrals and retreat centers. Rosaries are part of a private prayer life. Even in Catholic churches, one rarely see rosaries among the worshipers at Mass.

The comments about Luther’s “passive” devotion to the Bessed Mother illustrates the most common attitude among all Christians, in my opinion. It is like a very personal friend you adore but not necessarily talk about very often.

 

[Hockeygurl]

Kliska,
Along these lines, does your faith community regularly pray the Lord’s Prayer, or do you consider it only an example of prayer, but not to be repeated regularly?

Jon

Ok, I admit I didn’t get through all the answers before I had to put my opinion in. I think of the Lords prayer as somthing to use when you are lost for words, when you don’t know what else to say. I rarely use it (out of liturgy). Not that I am saying it’s bad or that the rosary is bad. I was just brought up to talk to Jesus/GOD like I am talking to a friend. My prayer typically starts with Dear God… and thankfully he doesn;t get mad when I am all tied up on everythihng… usually ends in “in jesus’ name I pray. Amen”

This is just how I feel comfortable praying. Again… I am NOT saying anything else is wrong, I just wanted to give an example of how I do it.

 

[pocohombre]

Well stated.

I am probably more acquainted with Roman Catholics than many other non-Catholic posters due to extensive worship in RC churches by way of extended family and an early exposure to religious communities.

The Rosary is a helpful tool for prayer and meditation similar to walking the labyrinth in cathedrals and retreat centers. Rosaries are part of a private prayer life. Even in Catholic churches, one rarely see rosaries among the worshipers at Mass.

The comments about Luther’s “passive” devotion to the Bessed Mother illustrates the most common attitude among all Christians, in my opinion. It is like a very personal friend you adore but not necessarily talk about very often.

Thank you, and to others on this forum whom I’ve piggybacked , been inspired by, and others who sharpen/challenge. Blessings.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
No,but many other Protestants do. Where is that in the Bible?

Kliska:
Remember, I’m a Protestant and believe people are answerable for their own practices. I don’t expect you to be answerable to those Roman Catholics that don’t follow church teaching.

Precisely why Protestanism is all over the place and with the belief it is all “biblical”-right? Scripture is all over the rosary…I do not see anything about altar calls,etc,etc,etc.

Quote:
Nope! No where is baptism mandated for adults-only or children being of “age” to accept baptism in the NT. Logically the first baptisms involved adults due to the fact no cradle Christians existed.

Kliska:
This is akin to what we call an appeal to ignorance. On the command side of things, I do see the command to have faith on Jesus and be baptized, an infant cannot have faith directed at Jesus in a salvific sense. An infant can be dedicated, but I see no compelling specifics in the Bible about baptizing babies. Again, I understand the RCC’s teaching on this, I just don’t agree with it.

I call it an appeal to historical evidence. And I see no compelling madate about or specifics about your standard about baptism either. Have faith in Jesus? Yes! However, tell me when a mentally retarded child will make such a decision? Tell me when they are commanded to have faith in Jesus in order to be baptized? According to your standard they are instantly outside the norm-no? What happens to them? An infant cannot have faith? And can infant feed themselves? Nope! But mom and dad sure can and God easily know the intentions of mom and dad for a child’s baptism. Did eight day old male boys have a clue about circumcision? I disagree with the Protestant belief one must make an intelligent decision or acceptance in order to be baptized. Such a norm automatically eliminates scores of people.

Quote:
And again…many use crackers and grape juice.

Kliska:
I can’t answer for them.

Don’t expect you too,but nonetheless it is in the world of non-Catholics.

Quote:
Okay,but what Bible? There existed scores of written scripture. Peter and Paul had no canonized Bible in their hands.

Did Peter and Paul recognize scripture? Sure they did. The Bible is a collection of manuscripts, we can clearly see that what they called scripture was integral to the spreading of the faith. Again, they were the ones writing bits of the scripture at the time, so no, they didn’t have the KJV in hand, no arguments there, but they most assuredly had scripture, as did Jesus

.

Which scripture did they recognize? Can you answer such a question? Did Paul accept Tobit? Judith? Sirach? You seem to ignore many other writings were in circulation and where considered scripture by various communities.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Asking Mary to pray for me is not “focusing on her”.

In all honesty, when saying the Rosary, I focus on the Visitation of Gabriel, the Visit to Elizabeth, the Nativity, the Blessing, the Finding in the Temple, The Crucifixion and all the parts of that, the Resurrection, the The Ascension, the Etc. etc.

It is like if I ask YOU to pray for me over and over as I contemplate on God.

Fine.

I would prefer to think about the meditations without the prayers to Mary.

 

[pocohombre]

[he “Vain Repetition” Jesus warned about was that of the pagans who would babble jiberish for long periods of time in hopes that they would stumble on a word or two of a god’s language obligating that god to do a favor. There is no danger of that with the Rosary

Such Pagan prayer is jiberish only to the ears of God or one who knows better. But they are very precise, even formulaic prayers, perfectly understandable to the heathen (probably the Romans of the time). You are correct in that many formulas were "prayed’ in hopes of “connecting”, hence the appearance of repetition. Having said that, it is still apparently possible to vainly pray but with Jewsih/Christian babblings, else Jesus would not have admonished us in such a way. Obviously we don’t pray to heathen Gods, but apparently to Jesus we could be tempted to put faith in Christian “canned’ prayers, recitations, as the heathen did theirs. … Repetition is ok (Mat 26:44- “And Jesus prayed the third time using the same words”) but apparently something can make it vain. Length is ok (Luke 6:12 Jesus prayed all night”), but apparently something can make it vain. Part of the vanity can be in placing too much value on your prayers wording and length, intensity, overshadowing the value and simplicity of a broken, contrite heart before a loving Father who already knows what you need. The good news is that nowhere do we see a an admonition NOT to go to the Father without ceasing, even bugging Him, with our own worded supplications, even groanings.
[/QUOTE]

 

[pablope]

D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325 View Post
And does anyone believe Peter or Paul had altar calls?

 

[dronald]

I’ve seen the example of altar calls come up a few times and I’m wondering what exactly it is and how it’s unbiblical? Just based on wiki alone it sounds like people go up and accept Christ; isn’t that what was happening in Acts 2?

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do? "

The rest of the chapter has them (3000) being Baptized, giving up everything and being Christian. This is not anything like the process of the RCIA and closer to altar calls I would think?

 

[sennincatholic]

Just when you were trying to make a point, you had to spoil it at the end by including RCIA?You take an isolated verse from the bible and use it to validate altar calls on the detriment of RCIA? Did you even read what you wrote? Do you even know what RCIA is?
pff! Sola Scriptura!:nope:

 

[batman1973]

Just when you were trying to make a point, you had to spoil it at the end by including RCIA?You take an isolated verse from the bible and use it to validate altar calls on the detriment of RCIA? Did you even read what you wrote? Do you even know what RCIA is?
pff! Sola Scriptura!:nope:

Do you know what sola Scriptura is?

 

[batman1973]

I’ve seen the example of altar calls come up a few times and I’m wondering what exactly it is and how it’s unbiblical? Just based on wiki alone it sounds like people go up and accept Christ; isn’t that what was happening in Acts 2?

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do? "

The rest of the chapter has them (3000) being Baptized, giving up everything and being Christian. This is not anything like the process of the RCIA and closer to altar calls I would think?

The one thing that I see bad about altar calls is that many people get caught up in the emotion, and lose sight of what they are committing to. Putting your faith in Christ is a life long, life changing experience, and should be prayerfully thought out. Also, I have noticed that there is seldom any follow up, so there’s no discipleship.

 

[Reuben_J]

Kliska:

I think the way some pray it is a problem, others probably not, but it can apply equally to protestants or Catholics.

Kliska:

Do you believe that all people that pray the rosary do so with the same mindset as you? Do you believe it is possible that there are individuals who pray it in a vainly repetitious way? I fully believe there are protestants who pray in similar fashion. Do I believe I’ve witnessed this? Yes. But that doesn’t further your understanding of it, if you disagree, because it is a subjective call.

Reuben J:

So what do you think, is praying the Rosary vain repetition?

Kliska:

I believe it can be. Even if you remove the references to Mary, etc… it certainly can be. Further, as most can probably tell, I believe the form of prayer done on a rosary lends itself to the “hazard” of vain repetition.

So Rosary prayer is not ‘vain repetition’ when prayed properly according to its intent and purpose though it can be, as too are Protestant prayers, depending on how the individuals pray them.

Thank you. I have no more questions for now.

Kliska:

Do you believe all RC’s pray the rosary with correct focus, intent, reflection, etc…?

I should believe, yes, because that is how the Rosary be prayed – to meditate on the mysteries of the Gospel.

 

[Steveabrous]

Such Pagan prayer is jiberish only to the ears of God or one who knows better. But they are very precise, even formulaic prayers, perfectly understandable to the heathen (probably the Romans of the time). You are correct in that many formulas were "prayed’ in hopes of “connecting”, hence the appearance of repetition. Having said that, it is still apparently possible to vainly pray but with Jewsih/Christian babblings, else Jesus would not have admonished us in such a way. Obviously we don’t pray to heathen Gods, but apparently to Jesus we could be tempted to put faith in Christian “canned’ prayers, recitations, as the heathen did theirs. … Repetition is ok (Mat 26:44- “And Jesus prayed the third time using the same words”) but apparently something can make it vain. Length is ok (Luke 6:12 Jesus prayed all night”), but apparently something can make it vain. Part of the vanity can be in placing too much value on your prayers wording and length, intensity, overshadowing the value and simplicity of a broken, contrite heart before a loving Father who already knows what you need. The good news is that nowhere do we see a an admonition NOT to go to the Father without ceasing, even bugging Him, with our own worded supplications, even groanings.

I’m sorry but in Jesus time pagans would say long drawn out jibberish (that is jibberish to everyone even themselves) prayer hoping to stumble on a word that some god understood. That is what Jesus was warning us not to do. And the rosary does not do that. And if you are going to hang your hat on that verse then why do protestant not only pray the our father?

 

[Steveabrous]

Such Pagan prayer is jiberish only to the ears of God or one who knows better. But they are very precise, even formulaic prayers, perfectly understandable to the heathen (probably the Romans of the time). You are correct in that many formulas were "prayed’ in hopes of “connecting”, hence the appearance of repetition. Having said that, it is still apparently possible to vainly pray but with Jewsih/Christian babblings, else Jesus would not have admonished us in such a way. Obviously we don’t pray to heathen Gods, but apparently to Jesus we could be tempted to put faith in Christian “canned’ prayers, recitations, as the heathen did theirs. … Repetition is ok (Mat 26:44- “And Jesus prayed the third time using the same words”) but apparently something can make it vain. Length is ok (Luke 6:12 Jesus prayed all night”), but apparently something can make it vain. Part of the vanity can be in placing too much value on your prayers wording and length, intensity, overshadowing the value and simplicity of a broken, contrite heart before a loving Father who already knows what you need. The good news is that nowhere do we see a an admonition NOT to go to the Father without ceasing, even bugging Him, with our own worded supplications, even groanings.

Also could someone please show me where the phrase "Vain repetition " is used in the bible? I see the protestants saying jesus warned of “Vain repetition” but what I read in the bible is this

"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many word"

Am I missing something? Because I don’t see the words “Vain repetition” in that sentence.

It warns of “Babbling on like pagans” who did what I discribed in my last post. And the rosary does not do that

 

[dronald]

Just when you were trying to make a point, you had to spoil it at the end by including RCIA?You take an isolated verse from the bible and use it to validate altar calls on the detriment of RCIA? Did you even read what you wrote? Do you even know what RCIA is?
pff! Sola Scriptura!:nope:

So then you would say that the RCIA process is closer to what the Bible says than altar calls? My point is that Catholics say it’s not in the Bible, but I’m just not getting it.

The one thing that I see bad about altar calls is that many people get caught up in the emotion, and lose sight of what they are committing to. Putting your faith in Christ is a life long, life changing experience, and should be prayerfully thought out. Also, I have noticed that there is seldom any follow up, so there’s no discipleship.

This could be true, but remember what the Bible explicitly says in Acts 2:

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do? "

38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.