The Rosary - What is Not Understood?

[pocohombre]

Also could someone please show me where the phrase "Vain repetition " is used in the bible? I see the protestants saying jesus warned of “Vain repetition” but what I read in the bible is this

"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many word"

Am I missing something? Because I don’t see the words “Vain repetition” in that sentence.

It warns of “Babbling on like pagans” who did what I discribed in my last post. And the rosary does not do that

KJV and ASV have vain repetition. You are right the rosary does not aim at many gods or any false god, but it does have repetition doesn’t it ? To some it has the appearance of vain repetition.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Do you have any sources ? I just looked up about the Roman practices,since that is the closest culture within the Jewish nation that all Jews were familiar with, and their jibbereish was as I stated… But,I’M open to more info and my point may still stand. Why would Jesus tell them not to pray like them if Jews did not pray your type of “jibberish” anyway ?

It wasn’t exactly jibberish, but if you read in context, Jesus qualifies
his words by saying how the Father knows everything before you e–
ven ask, so don’t treat God like a **finite **pagan God, like the Pagans
do, like Emperor Claudius, who was known to talk to the gods for a
very long time.

“Don’t talk to God,” Jesus is saying, “like he needs every little detail.”

 

[sousley]

Do you have any sources ? I just looked up about the Roman practices,since that is the closest culture within the Jewish nation that all Jews were familiar with, and their jibbereish was as I stated… But,I’M open to more info and my point may still stand. Why would Jesus tell them not to pray like them if Jews did not pray your type of “jibberish” anyway,and especially to differeing gods ?

This is the note on my 1582 Rheims NT:
**Speak not much:**Long prayer is not forbidden, for Christ himself spent whole nights in prayer; and He said we must pray always; and the apostle exhorted to pray without intermission; and the holy Church from the beginning has had her canonical hours of prayer: but idle and voluntary babbling, either of the Heathens to their gods, or of the heretics, that by long rhetorical prayers think to persuade God; whereas the collects of the Church are most brief and most effectual.

There are 2 attributes of comparison listed: St Augustine ep. 121 c. 8,9,10 and another note scribbled in the margin of St. Cyrian that I am assuming says de oratione(it is not completely legible). It would appear as though neither of these letters survived.

 

[pocohombre]

It wasn’t exactly jibberish, but if you read in context, Jesus qualifies
his words by saying how the Father knows everything before you e–
ven ask, so don’t treat God like a **finite **pagan God, like the Pagans
do, like Emperor Claudius, who was known to talk to the gods for a
very long time.

“Don’t talk to God,” Jesus is saying, “like he needs every little detail.”

You got me thinking…The Jews were not supposed to pray to any false gods. I think the emphasis with the pagans is that they know not whom they address, not that the gods are finite, even false, for that is a given in Jewish culture. But I do agree that the juxtaposition of how to pray sheds light on how not to pray, and vice versa. I guess don’t be “religious” in your prayers. Pagan and Jewish prayers could be vain. Praise and ritual prayers are one thing (mass,baptism,passover etc). But other prayer should be talking to God, as you would like to be talked to .

 

[pocohombre]

This is the note on my 1582 Rheims NT:
**Speak not much:**Long prayer is not forbidden, for Christ himself spent whole nights in prayer; and He said we must pray always; and the apostle exhorted to pray without intermission; and the holy Church from the beginning has had her canonical hours of prayer: but idle and voluntary babbling, either of the Heathens to their gods, or of the heretics, that by long rhetorical prayers think to persuade God; whereas the collects of the Church are most brief and most effectual.

There are 2 attributes of comparison listed: St Augustine ep. 121 c. 8,9,10 and another note scribbled in the margin of St. Cyrian that I am assuming says de oratione(it is not completely legible). It would appear as though neither of these letters survived.

Thanks. Is the full rosary "brief " then ,or is it even addressed in the note ?

 

[sousley]

Thanks. Is the full rosary "brief " then ,or is it even addressed in the note ?

The note is general exposition of the passage.

As a matter of my own opinion, I think there human potential (often unnoticed) that the longer we “prattle”, the greater the potential of wandering into irreverent ways. An example: Dad, can I do to the party? (ok to ask). All the kids are going (steering toward inspiring guilt). I will be ostracized if I don’t go (attempt at coercion). Adults will be there (that was a lie). Parent says no. Child responses: Your ways are unfair, etc. The child feels hurt, abandoned, anxious, oppressed. Although we would hate to admit it, do we ever treat God like this? So I view this passage as an act of mercy for us. Since God knows what we need, ask for sure, but don’t get yourself worked up and don’t try to coerce Him, and possibly end up anxious or worse. Again, this is only an opinion.

As far as the rosary, there is variety. One is a scriptural rosary that adds a line of scripture (pertinent to that mystery) before each Hail Mary. This style helps me with meditation sometimes, but basically I offer each prayer for an intention. So for me, it might sound like this: In the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit…Apostles Creed…For wisdom and guidance for the Holy Father (Pope)…Our Fther… for and increase in faith (could be for me or communally)…**Hail Mary…**for and increase in hope…**Hail Mary…**for and increase in Charity… Hail Mary… and so on.

Is that what you meant, or am I not in sync with your question?

 

[Millie123]

I would like to give a biblical example of “babbling like the pagans” and vain repetition. In 1 kings 18:26-29 this is exactly what we see pagans doing. Its an example of pagan babbling and vain repetition. I think this is what our lord is commanding us not to do when he says not to babble like the pagans.
1 kings 18:26-29
26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it.

Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

“The prayers of the pagan prophets were “vain” because, after spending the entire day frantically calling upon him, Baal never responded. He wasn’t a real god, unlike the God of Israel, who always answers sincere prayer. Jesus’ point in Matthew 6:7 is that we don’t need to spend all day leaping over altars, cutting ourselves, and raving to get our heavenly Father’s ear. He hears our prayers no matter what type of prayer is offered: lengthy or short, composed or extemporaneous, group or individual, repetitious or unique.” Tl frazier ewtn
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/ROSARYDI.htm

 

[batman1973]

Whose version or understanding of it?

Well, since I’m a Lutheran, and Martin Luther believed in Sola Scriptura, I’d go with that one. And, I’m sure you know our position, as many of my learned Evangelical Catholics have described it in detail.

 

[pablope]

Well, since I’m a Lutheran, and Martin Luther believed in Sola Scriptura, I’d go with that one. And, I’m sure you know our position, as many of my learned Evangelical Catholics have described it in detail.

Okay…so what did Luther say SS is? Can you provide the direct statement or quote of Luther, in Luther’s own words, defining what SS is?

 

[pablope]

Yo

Quote:
Originally Posted by pablope View Post
The protestant who believes or practices them would disagree with you…and even say it is biblical and you are wrong to disagree with them…so who is right-you or the one who does altar calls?

There were…just that they were not called RCs…the Roman was attached by your protestant siblings at the time of the reformation.

yet I’d never argue that they should all be ditched.

My point was directed at your argument that the rosary should not be prayed or something like that because peter or paul did not pray it…so following your logic…should protestants be ditched because there were none at the time of peter or paul?

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[/QUOTE]

 

[JonNC]

Okay…so what did Luther say SS is? Can you provide the direct statement or quote of Luther, in Luther’s own words, defining what SS is?

Hi Pablope,
From the Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord:

…Dr. Luther himself in the** Latin preface to his published works** has given necessary and Christian admonition concerning his writings, and has expressly drawn this distinction namely, that the Word of God alone should be and remain the only standard and rule of doctrine, to which the writings of no man should be regarded as equal, but to which everything should be subjected.

I don’t have access to his Latin preface, and couldn’t read it if I did, but apparently it is available.

Jon

 

[Dorothy]

Hi Pablope,
From the Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord:

I don’t have access to his Latin preface, and couldn’t read it if I did, but apparently it is available.

Jon

Jon,

I assume you are aware that to a practicing Catholic Sola Scriptura is a one-legged stool. Catholics believe in the three-legged stool…

Sacred Scripture

Sacred Tradition

Teaching authority of the Church (Magisterium)

I do understand that Martin Luther had good reason to be upset, due to his seeing so much corruption and confusion all around him.

I firmly believe in all the truths the Catholic Church teaches me, as I believe that the Father and the Son has sent us the Holy Spirit to protect us from error in doctrine and moral teaching, in spite of the lack of holiness in many of its members.

I do recognize the holiness and sincerity of Christians in denominations and long for the day when we are all of one mind and heart in Jesus Christ.

I am inspired by the holiness of Christians of other denominations as well.

I’m not aware if this is off topic right now, but just felt strongly to say all this.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Kliska]

This wasn’t addressed to me, by I’d point out that the fact that your profile says “Religion: Christian, Protestant” (as opposed to, say, Methodist or Baptist) probably doesn’t help. Kind of like if I told you “I’m apostolic” but didn’t say whether I’m Orthodox, Catholic, etc.

I understand that, I think, but then it would also be like holding me responsible for all Methodists if I’d say I’m Methodist. lol I’m non-denominational in the literal sense, I don’t belong formally to any community. I’m one who believes everyone that talks on religious things is responsible for what they believe, do, say, etc…

 

[Kliska]

Pablope, you and I are not going to see eye-to-eye on anything here, and it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. So, thank you for dialoging with me, but I have no wish to lay out the whole proselytizing argument for protestant thought.

Grace and Peace

 

[pablope]

I was just asking questions… You do not want to answer questions anymore?

 

[pablope]

Hi Pablope,
From the Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord:

I don’t have access to his Latin preface, and couldn’t read it if I did, but apparently it is available.

Jon

Well…there are online translators…

Dr. Luther himself in the Latin preface to his published works

You know…there are many who have translated Luther’s works…no one has translated his Latin preface at all?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Key words:Most children? Again…what about the ones who cannot adhere to your standard of baptism?

Kliska:
I don’t believe scripture teaches that baptism brings salvation, so there’s no worries on that score.

Sorry,but I rather believe St.Paul.

Quote:
Yes which is why the early Christians used the Septuagint which is quoted in the NT which even my NIV Study Bible confirms.

Kliska:
Perhaps…

Quoting from the Septuagint actually says a lot.

Quote:
The NT mentions bishops who are priests.

No, the NT mentions bishops/overseers.

Yes, bishops are priests. The Passover meal (pre-figurement) required a priest,thus the Lord’s Supper as well. Scripture does not jive with you.

Quote:
The distinction between bishop and priest developed over time.

Kliska:
Yep, as did the idea of a priesthood other than the priesthood of all believers.

Nope! God set up the ministerial priesthood.

Quote:
Who was at the Last Supper? Only the twelve who were ordained priests. Jesus would had scores of people, if the ordained priesthood didn’t many anything to him.The CC teaches we are all prophet,king and priest. But we are not ordained ministerial priests-big difference. No mention of just ordinary folks performing the Lord’s Supper in the NT or in early church history. Reformers rejected the ministerial priesthood.

Kliska:
Absolutely we rejected it because it isn’t taught in scripture. What good does it do you to be a priest if it has no meaning? Why is is such a big deal that now we are all priests, if not that we are all actual priests?

And the basis of your rejection is based on poor biblical exegesis.

Quote:
Yeah…and Clements Letter to the Corinthians was called Scripture. Why isn’t in our NT?

Kliska:
I can call a lot of things scripture, that’s not good enough to make it so. lol However, if Peter or Paul called something scripture, or Jesus, or the Spirit, then yeah, I’ll go with that.

Exactly! Precisely why the church canonized the Bible or we would have no formal Bible,if everyone decide what truly is scripture or not.

Quote:
And yet every letter in the NT still had to meet a criteria.

Can I not check the criteria and then check the letters?

By all means…look it up.

Quote:
The term “Roman” Catholic was not in use. But guess what? Christians already existed in Rome and were not some at Pentecost? Acts 2 sure says many were from Rome,Pamphylia,etc. Sounds very Catholic to me.

I believe the Apostle’s Creed; all believers are part of the Catholic church, but that’s not meaning the RCC. The universal church is alive and well and populated by all believers, RCC, Orthodox, Protestant, labels don’t keep you out or in.

In one’s imagination,but reality speaks volumes. If “all” believers are part of the Catholic church,then the formulation of the Nicene Creed would be pointless. The Arians were believers,were they included?

 

[Kliska]

Nicea’ we could go back and forth for years on all these things. There is a reason I’m a protestant, there is a reason you are a Roman Catholic. I have no wish, nor do I have endless time to debate every single point of theology. I have no wish to come to a Roman Catholic forum and try to argue my case.

You may call Arians believers, I do not.

 

[Peter_J]

Nicea’ we could go back and forth for years on all these things. There is a reason I’m a protestant, there is a reason you are a Roman Catholic.

Needless to say, I don’t come into these conversations with an expectation that you’re going to convert to Catholicism, or even that you’re going to start praying the rosary or bowing to statues.

But having said that, I do think that there’s an unfortunate phenomenon that happens, namely protestants will feel justified in their extremes but pointing to the opposite extreme among Catholics, and Catholics will feel justified in our extremes but pointing to the opposite extreme among protestants.

The earlier discussion about statues is a good example: protestants (not all of them of course) will avoid having statues because they don’t want to be even slightly similar to Catholics in that regard.

 

[dronald]

The earlier discussion about statues is a good example: protestants (not all of them of course) will avoid having statues because they don’t want to be even slightly similar to Catholics in that regard.

Perhaps. But we must not forget what Romans 14 says about such things like this.

Remember that all of us must look out for each other when it comes to debates like the statues and the rosary. Even Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8:

13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

Paul would give up eating meat if only to help his brother’s conscience, even with full knowledge that nothing is unclean. As soon as it becomes an, “us vs them” mentality we must then look to passages like Romans 14.