The Rosary - What is Not Understood?

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Ok. So what’s the problem then?

You think it’s wrong to recite the Word of God over and over?

I agree with the point you’re making, that it’s NOT wrong to recite the Word
of God over and over, though to keep things on the level, it would be wrong
to repeatedly recite God’s Word mindlessly.

That being an excellent point to the Rosary, repeatedly reciting “Hail Mary”
NOT mindlessly, but with Jesus and his mysteries filling up our minds.

 

[PRmerger]

I agree with the point you’re making, that it’s NOT wrong to recite the Word
of God over and over, though to keep things on the level, it would be wrong
to repeatedly recite God’s Word mindlessly.

That being an excellent point to the Rosary, repeatedly reciting “Hail Mary”
NOT mindlessly, but with Jesus and his mysteries filling up our minds.

Yes. So, as I said here, it’s not the repetition, but the **vain **repetition which Scripture admonishes.

It is not the repetition that is objectionable, but the “vain” part.

So nothing wrong with praying the Rosary, as long as it isn’t rote, mindless or vain.

 

[Steveabrous]

I checked also .3 have “bable”, one"meaningless repetition", another “heap up empty phrases”, another “meaningless things”, another “ramble” and several say it is really from “stammer”. Babble has a few definitions also as in “to talk foolishly or too much” or if it is transitive verb “meaningless repetition,excessive speech” etc… Regardless it is a difficult word to translate and there are several theories behind the word. One has been mentioned here that a heap of words are used cause of their many gods, or to tire God to our way/demand. Another a combination of aramaic of vain repetiiton and greek stammer. Whatever, the word is not easy and “vain repetition” is not off the mark, and is a good possibility, as is babble. They are not opposites and perhaps could be synonyms. Jesus helps for he clarifies a bit by saying faith in “many words” being "heard to be vain (a bit like the priests of Baal). As far as commentaries , a few would place the rosary in this category, but one said it is not, and a few were silent on this matter.

Glossolalia is not babbling. Two different topics, but for sure can be abused (vain/even carnal) also.

To discern what Jesus is saying we can look at how the pagans practiced prayer. One form of prayer was to say nonesensicle, meaningless jibberish for extended periods of time in the hope that you would stumble on a word from a god’s language therefore obligating said god into granting favor. We know this was practiced in the region and time frame of Jesus. When you look at the verse I think it is obvious this is what he is refering to.Quite frankly the pagans were practicing glossolalia, which absolutely is babbling to the human ear, yes I understand the person doing it thinks its a Godly language we don’t understand (Hey that sounds familiar).

I think Jesus, in anticipation of the many Pagan converts to come wanted to nip it in the bud that this pagan practice would not creep in. I think a much better case can be made that what some consider to be the false practice of speaking in tongues is a carry over of this Pagan practice then to say the rosary is.

The Rosary is not nonesense or jibberish, or even a long prayer it is several understood bible based prayers with meditaion.on the life of Jesus.

I think if someone is going to hang their hat on this verse then they better not say any prayer other then the Lords prayer. Thats the only prayer this particular verse says is ok.

 

[wmscott]

https://imgur.com/jFi4HM3

LOL

 

[pocohombre]

Ok. So what’s the problem then?

 

[dronald]

To discern what Jesus is saying we can look at how the pagans practiced prayer. One form of prayer was to say nonesensicle, meaningless jibberish for extended periods of time in the hope that you would stumble on a word from a god’s language therefore obligating said god into granting favor. We know this was practiced in the region and time frame of Jesus. When you look at the verse I think it is obvious this is what he is refering to.Quite frankly the pagans were practicing glossolalia, which absolutely is babbling to the human ear, yes I understand the person doing it thinks its a Godly language we don’t understand (Hey that sounds familiar).

I think Jesus, in anticipation of the many Pagan converts to come wanted to nip it in the bud that this pagan practice would not creep in. I think a much better case can be made that what some consider to be the false practice of speaking in tongues is a carry over of this Pagan practice then to say the rosary is.

The Rosary is not nonesense or jibberish, or even a long prayer it is several understood bible based prayers with meditaion.on the life of Jesus.

I think if someone is going to hang their hat on this verse then they better not say any prayer other then the Lords prayer. Thats the only prayer this particular verse says is ok.

I think Jesus explains fully what He means by not doing what the Pagans do and their reasons for doing what they do:

Matt 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans,** for they think they will be heard because of their many words.**

Jesus then gives us how to pray.

 

[pocohombre]

To discern what Jesus is saying we can look at how the pagans practiced prayer…Quite frankly the pagans were practicing glossolalia,

It is possible but I have not read that. I have read other explanations but not that one.The closest pagans amidst the Jews were the occupying Romans, who did not do that (glossolalia), but definitely were long winded with repetition and many gods and many names for them hence were striving for a connection thru many words.

The Rosary is not nonesense or jibberish,

Not to us but we aren’t everybody. Same with the pagans, it was not nonsense to them-it was a serious business.

or even a long prayer.

No it is not a long prayer. It is 2-3 prayers said repetitively for a long period of time.I know “long” is relative but definitely very repetitive.

it is several understood bible based prayers with meditaion.on the life of Jesus.

Yes the our father is bible based and universal . The first part of Hail Mary is bible based and still universal. The second part is a CC interpretation of the bible and not universal to all Christians due to it’s supplication to Mary ( a departed saint), and theology of salvation assurance or lack of it .

I think if someone is going to hang their hat on this verse then they better not say any prayer other then the Lords prayer. Thats the only prayer this particular verse says is ok

Hyperbole. It is not the only prayer that is safe for any legalist. That is the whole point that Jesus is trying to make. Your prayers are private conversation with a knowing God, and the conversation has guidelines with the our father .The our father can be a prayer in itself but it is also a model, containing many elements of how to talk to God.

 

[PRmerger]

Not usually.

So then we are agreed. There is nothing wrong with repetitive prayer. There is nothing wrong with reciting Scripture over and over.

So there’s nothing wrong with praying the Rosary.

And we are agreed that any kind of vain, rote prayer is wrong.

 

[Steveabrous]

I think Jesus explains fully what He means by not doing what the Pagans do and their reasons for doing what they do:

Matt 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans,** for they think they will be heard because of their many words.**

Jesus then gives us how to pray.

When I was a Protestant I used to go to various churches in my area when friends invited me, Protestants do that. In some of the churches the Pastor, or minister, would lead the congregation in a prayer starting out with “heavenly father…” I would get faint and have to sit down from the length of the prayer. Sometimes over 20 minutes. 1 prayer 20 minutes or more. When I think of what Jesus meant by:

Matt 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans,*** for they think they will be heard because of their many words***

It is this scenario that always comes to mind.

Then I was introduced to “speaking in tongues” And, as I pointed out earlier, that seems to fit the bill as well.

Yet the Protestants point their fingers at us.

 

[pocohombre]

So then we are agreed. There is nothing wrong with repetitive prayer.

“Not usually” did not apply to repetitive prayer. Christ did it once-prayed 3 times using same words. I would OK repetitive prayer once every three years.

There is nothing wrong with reciting Scripture over and over.

“Not usually” applied to this. Young Jewish children would memorize entire OT books, so I imagine repetition was a tool to that end. Praise to God can also be repetitive. Not sure scripture repetition is best for supplication however. Don’t see it in OT or NT, to the tune of saying it 53 times and counting with beads. Before Catholicism prayer beads were for other religions(false).

So there’s nothing wrong with praying the Rosary.

Post #124 and #126 explain my position on the Rosary.

And we are agreed that any kind of vain, rote prayer is wrong.

Agreed. To many the Rosary has the appearance of wrongness. To many, it is their hearthrob.

 

[dronald]

When I was a Protestant I used to go to various churches in my area when friends invited me, Protestants do that. In some of the churches the Pastor, or minister, would lead the congregation in a prayer starting out with “heavenly father…” I would get faint and have to sit down from the length of the prayer. Sometimes over 20 minutes. 1 prayer 20 minutes or more. When I think of what Jesus meant by:

Matt 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans,*** for they think they will be heard because of their many words***

It is this scenario that always comes to mind.

Then I was introduced to “speaking in tongues” And, as I pointed out earlier, that seems to fit the bill as well.

Yet the Protestants point their fingers at us.

Yeah, that’s bad too.

 

[pocohombre]

When I was a Protestant I used to go to various churches in my area when friends invited me, Protestants do that. In some of the churches the Pastor, or minister, would lead the congregation in a prayer starting out with “heavenly father…” I would get faint and have to sit down from the length of the prayer. Sometimes over 20 minutes. 1 prayer 20 minutes or more. When I think of what Jesus meant by:

Matt 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans,*** for they think they will be heard because of their many words***

It is this scenario that always comes to mind.

Then I was introduced to “speaking in tongues” And, as I pointed out earlier, that seems to fit the bill as well.

Yet the Protestants point their fingers at us.

Don’t some Catholics speak in tongues ?

 

[PRmerger]

“Not usually” did not apply to repetitive prayer.

You are aware that there are numerous Psalms that are repetitive prayers, right?

We are to minimize the amount of times we recite these because…why, again?

 

[Steveabrous]

Don’t some Catholics speak in tongues ?

Yes, some do. I have my self. I’m not saying it’s bad. I’m saying that one could, and some do, say it violates said scripture. I’m more playing devil’s advocate then anything when it comes to speaking in tongues. And I do feel it fits the bill better then the Rosary when it comes to said verse from the outside looking in. I believe different people are lead to pray in different ways. I have been lead to the rosary. Which isn’t for everyone. I personally don’t judge any ones prayer style.

But if I had to say, I Honestly feel that the first example I gave :
steveabrous; 11477602:

When I was a Protestant I used to go to various churches in my area when friends invited me, Protestants do that. In some of the churches the Pastor, or minister, would lead the congregation in a prayer starting out with “heavenly father…” I would get faint and have to sit down from the length of the prayer. Sometimes over 20 minutes. 1 prayer 20 minutes or more.

is what is meant by:

Matt 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words

 

[SecretGarden]

I think we also forget that Catholicism is a very hands on, sensory driven form of Christianity because we actively use holy water, prayer cards, different types of rosary beads, different metals etc that the rosary for most Protestants isn’t understood because it isn’t used. They don’t carry prayer beads with them therefore it becomes something they don’t understand. Furthermore, any prayer that has someone other than God or Jesus, they will automatically reject because of the theology they are taught. If someone gave them a rosary prayer that only had God or Jesus or a combination of both of them, then it is something over time they would accept.

We also have to be careful how we speak about the Protestant churches because it has two basic divisions mainline and Evangelical both are similar and very different. We have to be careful how we interpret certain things because every denomination has it’s way of doing certain things and most people are not willing to try something new.

 

[pocohombre]

You are aware that there are numerous Psalms that are repetitive prayers, right?

 

[PRmerger]

Apples to oranges, both in whom the prayer is directed and the amount of repetition.

I’m just trying to establish that your objection to the Rosary is not that it’s repetitive. For there are example after example of repetition in the Bible.

So, just to be clear: repetition is not the problem with the Rosary, as far as you are concerned.

 

[PRmerger]

Apples to oranges, both in whom the prayer is directed and the amount of repetition.

The “amount of repetition”??

How much repetition is valid, and how much is too much? And what Bible verses tell you this?

Is 25 repetitions ok?

Cause some might consider it vain, or unnecessary.

You’ll have to be consistent, then, and say that the inspired author of Psalm 136 was vain and making some unnecessary ejaculations.

Are you willing to say that?

But I’m partially ignorant .Why do you recite hail Mary 53 times per Rosary ? Why groups of ten ?

Just a tradition.

Originally it started as a way to pray the 150 Psalms. Pebbles were kept in one’s pockets to keep track of how many Psalms one had prayed. It eventually morphed into stringed beads.

 

[Nicea325]

Umm, sorry, but that isn’t the correct interpretation, as we are told specifically to look to the previous statement in a corresponding manner.

Yes, and His commandments were twofold; love the Lord, and love thy neighbor. How do we do the work of God is to have faith on Jesus; on His very Person, life, death, resurrection, according to Jesus Himself.

How were they brought through the water? By the ark. How did they have the ark? Noah built it. Why did he build it? He had faith in God. Everything flows from faith which is the key and always has been.

Why are you baptized (looking at non-infant baptism)? Because you first faithed. Again, it was most assuredly not the water that saved Noah. You aren’t interpreting the verse in its surrounding context nor the entirety of scripture.

Nope! Your interpretation is seriously flawed. Again, you adhere to novel belief. Not one early Church father would agree with your position. Second, what makes you believe your interpretation is correct?

As for Noah? It is not what he did or was asked to built ,it is HOW God changed their lives…by means of WATER! What did water remove? How did Jews escape Egypt? God opened the Red Sea and used what to save them? WATER! God used water to get rid of who? The Egyptians.

No offense,but your biblical exegesis is seriously lacking.

 

[Bayou_Catholic]

My beautiful wife (devout, Southern Baptist) was initially very reluctant to consider the rosary a valid form of prayer, especially since it involves prayer to the Blessed Mother. Her main concern was that it is unbiblical… prayer to saints (v/s straight to Jesus), vain repetition, using beads, and so forth. After several discussions, my wife eventually accepted much of the rosary as rooted in scripture both prayers and mysteries. She also agreed that the beads were a practical tool to be utilized as one reflected on the mysteries of Christ. It was difficult for her to accept the practice as “ok” to be performed because of the prayer to anyone other than God – on this she would not budge. No argument or scripture I could produce would change her mind. Long story short, she now prays the rosary regularly (though, she is not prepared to swim the Tiber). I attribute her conversion of mind to the Holy Spirit. As I mentioned, she would not budge based on my arguments. I was persistent in inviting her to pray with me when she eventually “gave it a shot”. We prayed together regularly, so it was not foreign for me to invite her to pray… it was inviting her to pray the rosary that she found odd. My wife noted that she hadn’t experienced a contemplative prayer such as the rosary before.

Every time my wife and I discuss religious truth, we find ourselves making the case for authority. I find this has been the case throughout this particular thread and in many that I read in this forum. My wife’s problem with the rosary was that her authority (scripture alone and her/her church’s interpretation/tradition) did not accept it as divinely revealed. I know many will say God is their personal authority as well, but many who disagree with each other claim this. God does not contradict Himself, nor does Sacred Scripture contradict itself. I’m finding that those who reject the rosary as unbiblical are viewing the subject thru a monofocal lens (maybe bifocal – me and my bible); rather than thru the multifocal lens Christ has revealed to us… the authority of His Church, Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition.

I am certainly no authority on the matter and this is only my personal experience on the subject of the OP. I have found it very informative to review the exchanges of this thread. I have a greater appreciation for the various perspectives I’ve encountered here.