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PRmerger
Guest
Thanks for this beautiful testimony.
And welcome to the Forums!
And welcome to the Forums!
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wmscott
Guest
This is a 100% correct assessment of Kliska. In reading through this thread and in the Scriptural and Church teachings that has been providing to dispel a blatant falsehood or complete error presented by this individual, he /she avoids the truths with answers like ābut this is your interpretation, or that is what some believe, or we agree to disagreeā and several other dismissals of the truth. the problem is he/she is applying his/her own fallible personal interpretation without the benefit of what Christ gave His Church which is the teaching authority of the Church, that is protected from error by the Holy Spirit.
Folks like Kliska really need our prayers so that they can over come 500 years of āProtestā and return home to the fullness of truth.
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lutheran_farmer
Guest
This thread has been helpful, thank you.
If you donāt mind, may I ask a technical question about transitioning from Protestant type prayers to Catholic ones?
I pray with our son every night and have been since he was old enough to understand. We used to pray for family members, military, etcā¦ (anything else that came to mind or whomever we were worried about) and then The Lordās Prayer (Protestant version).
Now, we do a sort of hybrid since our son is going to Catholic school and knows the Hail Mary (he taught it to me) and the Our Father. So, since we arenāt advanced enough yet to do the rosary, what is the best order of prayers here? And when are you supposed to cross yourself? Our son does it before and after the Hail Mary, but we arenāt done yet so then we do the regular prayers for family, etc. and then end with the Our Father and cross ourselves again.
If you donāt mind, may I ask a technical question about transitioning from Protestant type prayers to Catholic ones?
I pray with our son every night and have been since he was old enough to understand. We used to pray for family members, military, etcā¦ (anything else that came to mind or whomever we were worried about) and then The Lordās Prayer (Protestant version).
Now, we do a sort of hybrid since our son is going to Catholic school and knows the Hail Mary (he taught it to me) and the Our Father. So, since we arenāt advanced enough yet to do the rosary, what is the best order of prayers here? And when are you supposed to cross yourself? Our son does it before and after the Hail Mary, but we arenāt done yet so then we do the regular prayers for family, etc. and then end with the Our Father and cross ourselves again.
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PRmerger
Guest
Custom states that we cross ourselves at the beginning of our prayer, and at the end, after our final āamen!ā.
As far as the best order of prayersā¦there is no right or wrong answer to this. Pray to the Holy Spirit and ask for guidance here!
As far as the best order of prayersā¦there is no right or wrong answer to this. Pray to the Holy Spirit and ask for guidance here!
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Kliska
Guest
Of course you would say that, your perspective will allow no other way of looking at it,and I fully understand that.
What makes me believe? Studying the whole context, and taking him at his word that he is teaching a correspondence. It isnāt that hard to see. Obviously it does me no good to speak of the Spirit guiding me into seeing this truth, as it is just as easily rejected as I reject your stance.
Quite the contrary the important question was how and why Noah was spared. I want to know what the ark is, and how to get on it. (That would be Jesus, and by grace through faith) Then comes the water.
Of course youād say that.
Iām a sister in Christ, to be clear on my gender. You rely on interpretations that others hand you, instead of searching scripture with prayer and diligence to see if what others have told you are true; again, you start with the assumption that what someone else (the mageisterium) has told you is true and go from there. If you have searched scriptures then you personally have agreed to their interpretation, or else you wouldnāt belong to the RCC. You are in the same situation as I, it is just one removed, with your belief that only certain special people can be lead to truth instead of you being able to find it on you own with the help of the Spirit.
I covet every prayer I can get, however, I already have the fullness of truth. The fullness of Truth is a Person, and His name is Jesus. Christ and Him crucified is the truth of the faith that we share and the foundation that never changes. There was protest long before 500 years ago and can be seen in the protestations of Paul not to change the gospel, to fight against misrepresenting it in action, and to not return to the old way of doing things.
Again, you are Roman Catholic for a reason, Iām a protestant for a reason, we obviously are not going to agree on everything.
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Peter_J
Guest
I know itās a little late to be saying this, but in retrospect perhaps this thread would have benefited from more inclusion of the Eastern Catholic perspective. Much of the trouble that protestants have been running into here is not with Catholicism but only with the Western branch of Catholicism.
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Kliska
Guest
Could you expand on that a bit? I really am curious as to what you mean, as I lack knowledge in that area. Or maybe a new thread?
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wmscott
Guest
At work now but will answer this tonight.
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lutheran_farmer
Guest
Thanks for the PMs! That was really helpful.
Iām going to back away slowly and run now because you guys are above my paygradeā¦
Iām going to back away slowly and run now because you guys are above my paygradeā¦
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Peter_J
Guest
Iāll try (depending on how much time I have later). Itās a little hard b/c to me this thread has been rather weird.
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Peter_J
Guest
Glad to hear that.I was really starting to wonder, after some of the things said here by you and other Catholics.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Apostle v. Bishop - Differences between Offices
Though modern bishops succeed the apostles as the highest shepherds of the Church, and though they belong to unbroken lines of ordination going back to the hands of the apostles themselves, the office of bishop is not identical to the office of apostle. If it were, Christ would not have allowed the apostles to disappear from the scene but would have continued to appear to and commission new apostles for the Church. There are differences between the offices of bishop and apostle:
- The Gift of Miracles. Each apostle was endowed with the gift of miracles to enable him to perform signs validating his ministry as an apostle (2 Cor. 12:12). These manifestations provided motives of credibility showing the divine authority of the apostles and, by extension, those they appointed as successors.
- Universal vs. particular jurisdiction. Apostles were not limited territorially in the way bishops are. The mission of an apostle was to cultivate and shepherd the Church of Christ wherever he might be, giving him a universal jurisdiction (cf. Matt. 28:19-20, Mark 16:14-15).
- Personal vs. collegial infallibility. Christ promised the apostles special assistance by the Holy Spirit in remembering and understanding the teachings of Christ (John 14:26). This allowed the individual apostles to exercise the infallible teaching authority of the Church, and any apostle who chose to do so could define an issue.
Except for the pope acting as the successor of Peter, bishops today do not have the ability individually to exercise the Churchās infallible teaching office. They can do so only as a body, either in their ordinary teaching or when gathered in an ecumenical council (Lumen Gentium 25, Catechism of the Catholic Church 891-892).
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wmscott
Guest
To be clear there is only ONE Truth!!! I do not rely on others to hand me the truth; I rely on the Holy Spirit and the Church. When I read Sacred Scripture after praying for guidance from the Holy Spirit and try to understand what is being conveyed, and if I come away with something other than what the Church teaches, I must accept the Churches interpretation because the Church and the magisterium is the final authority and there can only be one truth. This is because it was the Church that āChristā promised to guide in āALL TRUTHā Jn 16:13 - guided by Holy Spirit into all truth. And Jn 14:26 ā āHOLY SPIRIT TO TEACHā & remind them of everything. It is in 1Tim 3:15 ā that the CHURCH is called āpillar and foundation of truthā
You rely on what you think is the truth using a fallible human perspective and limited knowledge. To me this speaks of one proclaiming to know Gods mind in fullness of truth. It seems a bit arrogant, but an arrogance born out of naivety. 2 Peter 1:18-21, 18 We ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, 21 for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the Holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.
You state āYou are in the same situation as I, it is just one removed, with your belief that only certain special people can be lead to truth instead of you being able to find it on your own with the help of the Spiritā. So when I Pray āCome Holy Spirit, fill the hearts and minds of the faithful servants, and inflame them with the fire of Thy divine loveā. And Let us pray: āO God, who by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, didst instruct the hearts of thy faithful servants; grant us in the same Spirit, to discern what is right, and enjoy His comfort forever, through our Lord Jesus Christ, Who live and reign, one God, with Thee and the same Spirit, world without end. Amenā. Then I read a passage from Sacred Scripture and you read the same while evoking the Holy Spirit, how is it that we come away with different interpretations? There can only be four possible scenarios, either the Holy Spirit lied to one or both of us which we both know the Holy Spirit would ever lie, or that the Holy Spirit is with me and provided me the correct interpretation, or he was with you and provided you with the correct interpretation or finally the Holy Spirit was with neither of us which means that we are both wrong or one of us happened by chance to interpret correctly.
How is this resolved??? Oh I forgot Jesus Christ established an āAUTHORITATIVE CHURCHā Mt 28:18-20 - Jesus delegates all power to Apostles. Jn 20:23 - power to forgive sin. 1Cor 11:23-24 - power to offer sacrifice (Eucharist). Lk 10:16 - power to speak with Christās voice. Mt 18:17 - power to discipline. Mt 18:18 - power to legislate.
Jesus Christ also established an INFALLIBLE CHURCH Jn 16:13 - guided by Holy Spirit into all truth. Jn 14:26 - Holy Spirit to teach & remind them of everything Lk 10:16 - speak with Christās own voice. 1Tim 3:15 - Church called āpillar and foundation of truthā 1Jn 2:27 - anointing of Holy Spirit remains in you. Acts 15:28 - Apostles speak with voice of Holy Spirit Mt 28:20 - I am with you.
The Deposit of Faith is the body of saving truth entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and handed on by them to be preserved and proclaimed. Jesus ordered them to teach the nations āeverything I have commanded youā and assured them āknow that I am with you always, until the end of the world.ā (Mt 28:18-20). The metaphor of a ādepositā suggests that this teaching is an inexhaustible treasure that rewards reflection and study with new insights and deeper penetration into the mystery of the divine economy of salvation [Godās plan for saving mankind]. Although the Churchās understanding of this teaching can and does develop, it can never be augmented in substance. The Catechism of the Catholic Church notes:
āThe apostles entrusted the sacred deposit of the faith [the depositum fidei; see 1 Tim 6:20; 2 Tim 1:12-14] contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. āBy adhering to (this heritage) the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread [the Eucharist] and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful.āā
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gmanlq
Guest
Hi Reuben,
You ask a very important question. How the Rosary could be a contemplative prayer? The answer is what many non-Catholics and even some Catholics miss. I have been Catholic my entire life and have had 12 years of Catholic education. I have prayed the Rosary many times in my life and for the past few years I have prayed it daily about 90% of the time. When I pray the Rosary I say the words of the prayers but my mind actually imagines the scene of each mystery. For example, the first Joyful mystery is the Annunciation so I see Mary and the angel Gabriel having the conversation. I try to imagine as if I am a witness to this mystery. What is felt? What is said? What are the facial expressions? Doing this takes me deeper into the details and helps me grow in my faith. It helps me to focus on spiritual things rather than the distractions of this world. Further, with each decade I have a prayer intention or intentions that I present to Jesus through his motherās helping hand. In addition, I believe it was St. Louis de Montfert that said each Hail Mary is like presenting a red rose to Our Lady and each Our Father is a white rose. The word Rosary in Latin means a garland of roses so I imagine my prayers floating to heaven as roses to the Virgin Mary. I also focus on the words at times as they are powerful. All these things make the rosary a beautiful discipline of the soul and help in my spiritual journey. I also know that the Virgin Mary likes the Rosary as she encouraged many people to do so in Fatima, Portugal back in 1917. Many saints and popes have mentioned and encouraged millions to pray this powerful pray. Saint Padre Pio in particular called it, The Weapon against Satan. In my experience it really does work. For those that do not understand or mock it or consider it useless they are missing out on a very powerful tool against Satan. Hope this helps.
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gmanlq
Guest
Kliska,
I think I can add some clarification here. Praying the Rosary is optional and not required in Catholic belief. Praying the Rosary is a discipline which can be changed and developed. For example, around the year 1917 Our Lady of Fatima asked that the following prayer be said after each Glory Be after at the end of each decade, āO My Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven especially those in most need of thy mercy.ā The mysteries will not change but can be developed over time as they are rooted in scripture and in Sacred Tradition which never contradicts scripture. I say this as Pope John Paul II added the luminous mysteries before he died. The mysteries do not contradict Sacred Scripture. For example, The Assumption of Mary while not found in scripture does not contradict scripture as there were Old Testament references to a person being assumed body and soul into heaven. We see in Revelation the womand clothed with the sun is the Virgin Mary so her body is in heaven. No contradiction just not explicitly stated but many things Christians believe are not explicitly stated in the bible. The body assuming into heaven happened to Elija in 2 Kings 2. Thus, there is your precedent and Jesus did take her body and soul into heaven. This was taught by the early church though not formally defined until centuries later. Often the Catholic Church does not define a dogma until that teaching is twisted or challenged by some heresy.
One cannot discount the Rosary just because it repeats prayers numerous times. Jesus himself prayed the same pray while his apostles were sleeping in the Garden of Gethsemane. Thereās the biblical precedent. Further, Jesus taught and thus wanted us to pray the Our Father so this shows value in it as are meditating on the mysteries of Jesus life and the two special things he did for his mother.
Hope this helps.
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Amo_a_Jesus
Guest
Is this topic going anywhere? Why so many people focus on the Rosary to criticized or defend the teachings of the Catholic Church? If we Praying the rosary with all the loved and respect, an with a beautiful intention we are not Offending God, or Jesus, also i donāt think protestants brothers are going to hell for not pray the rosary, the Rosary is not mandatory, is more a personal way to pray, why we end discussing Catholicism based on the Rosary? The rosary is a beautiful way to pray together as a family, always remembering that Mother Mary will be mad if in any moment we donāt obey and Glorify Her son as our number One, unfortunately many Catholics donāt understand that, that is why many protestant focus on those āerrorsā to criticized, although I Love Mother Mary , we have to be careful not to cross the line where we can end on Idolatry by mistake, and I think this is so well explained many times we donāt Idolize Mary, all the Glory and Adoration is for God Father and God Son Jesus Christ the King of the Universe. The Rosary is not in the Bible many people say, but computers are not in the Bible, mega churches with Big screens are not in the Bible, beach baptism is not in the Bible, and i can go on and onā¦ I will told a friend the other day, if you think Iām wrong pray for me, but donāt think you are better then my, because your church rent a big arena, for make services, the same way i will do with you, pray the rosary donāt make me better then you, Is the way that i feel close to Jesus, also to express my love and respect for our Mother.
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Kliska
Guest
And that is why there can be no meaningful exchanging of ideas on such things; if a person believes this, that is great for them. The problem is that it is an endless loop. Thank you for taking the time to answer.
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dronald
Guest
Because itās an interesting and often misunderstood topic. To be fair, this discussion and its many pages has been one of the most calm. No shouting at one another, no debates, just discussion and personal feelings towards the Rosary by two groups.
Perhaps the reason no one has been as āin your faceā with this topic compared to other topics is because the Rosary is considered valuable but not necessary. Infant Baptism and the Eucharist are in a way different ball park though.
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pocohombre
Guest
Come on PR .There is nothing in OT or NT that resembles the Rosary with itās repetitiveness.
Your exaple showed every sentence(vs) to be different.Yes each sentence had a phrase, a refrain, in it ,kind of artistic poetry , which is what some Psalms were. yet every verse is different.
OK Thank you. A tradition not found in OT or beginning of new.Just a tradition.
Originally it started as a way to pray the 150 Psalms. Pebbles were kept in oneās pockets to keep track of how many Psalms one had prayed. It eventually morphed into stringed beads
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stewstew03
Guest
I see nothing in the bible that resembles the Southern Baptist Convention ā is it your contention that Southern baptists are un-biblical?
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