The RSV-CE vs. the Douay Rheims

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Mannyfit75 said:
I think DR Onylism is very borderline Sola Scripturist.
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Suggesting that the liturgy in English, and private Catholic study, would benefit by using the Douay-Rheims, is hardly akin to a belief in Sola Scriptura.
 
Joel_Tunnah said:
Suggesting that the liturgy in English, and private Catholic study, would benefit by using the Douay-Rheims, is hardly akin to a belief in Sola Scriptura.
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I agree. I’m one who would prefer the DRV be used in the Liturgy and official documents. However, for my private reading, my bookshelf also contains the NAB, RSV-CE, KJV, and Good News translations.
 
Jerry-Jet said:
Why is it that high school kids can read Shakespeare and get an “A” in English but the Bible which is vital for our very souls is impossible to read?
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Heh heh heh! They’re not reading “MacBeth” on their own. They are getting a whole lot of help from their teachers and Cliff Notes! 😃

Hey, there’s an idea – require people to study every book of the Bible to the same degree that they study “MacBeth.”
The fact is that Catholics deserve a decent bible and they never get one.

Why is that?

Why is it beyond the capability of the Catholic Church to translate the bible better than any group of Protestants can?

I don’t understand that?

Can anyone explain that to me?
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I think it’s because the leaders don’t want to.
And that’s a shame. 😦
 
TIME said:
So what is the problem with Douay-Rheims?
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I can’t understand that old english. I found shakespear hard too, although I managed to get through the class with a decent grade. But I had to read each sentence a few times just to figure out what it actually meant at a literal level, let alone analyzing it.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
I can’t understand that old english. I found shakespear hard too, although I managed to get through the class with a decent grade. But I had to read each sentence a few times just to figure out what it actually meant at a literal level, let alone analyzing it.
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Same here. Those Catholics who can’t understand the old English style writing difficult to grasp. I think the RSV is pretty good as far as modern Bible translation goes.

If you are unhappy with the RSV-CE, you can by the DR from your local Catholic book store.

I think the only way to keep both DR readers and RSV-CE readers, is to make a new translation of the Latin Vulgate in English.
 
I don’t advocate Douay Rheims onlyism.

I do however advocate No translation that is not doctrinally superior to the Vulgate is worth reading ism!
 
Jerry-Jet said:
I don’t advocate Douay Rheims onlyism.

I do however advocate No translation that is not doctrinally superior to the Vulgate is worth reading ism!
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Does that include certain translations that are approved for use by Catholics, including the RSV-CE, RSV-2CE and NAB?
 
Mannyfit75 said:
I wonder that also.
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If we’re not sola scripturists, we ought not be too bothered by the fact that certain English-language translations of the Bible contain passages that are rendered in ways that don’t line up 100% with what the Church teaches. It is what the Church teaches, and how it interprets these passages, that really matters.

Thus, if a passage says that a person is forgiven in the person of Christ, fine. If it says that the person is forgiven in the presence of Christ, that’s fine too. I know that the Church teaches that the priest in the confessional acts in the person of Christ, and I don’t have to rely solely upon an interpretation of scripture to arrive at that point. I have the Church’s constant teaching on the matter, and I’m under an obligation to submit my reading of scripture to what the Church teaches, not the other way around.
 
Joel_Tunnah said:
Since when are a “theologically accurate”, and stylistically rich translation mutually exclusive? You just need the right people to pull them off.

Remember, the Psalms were written as poetry. Here’s what happens when you eviscerate style for the sake of producing a bible aimed at those with a 4th grade reading level:

1 The LORD is my shepherd; there is nothing I lack.
2 In green pastures you let me graze; to safe waters you lead me; 3 you restore my strength. You guide me along the right path for the sake of your name.
4 Even when I walk through a dark valley, I fear no harm for you are at my side; your rod and staff give me courage.
5 You set a table before me as my enemies watch; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
6 Only goodness and love will pursue me all the days of my life; I will dwell in the house of the LORD for years to come.

That’s the NAB. The same text is used in the four volume Liturgy of the Hours. It’s great for insomnia. As for being more “immediate”, direct, and understandable - the English is so unmemorable, I can’t even recall what verse 2 said by the time I get to verse 4.
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Actually, the LOTH uses the Grail Psalms, not the NAB Psalms. It’s listed in the copyright.
 
Neither translation is ideal. The RSV-CE suffers because it’s a compromise between the King James Version and more recent scholarship. As a result, the translators eschew a more vigorous translation of the text (e.g., “the Spirit of God hovered over the waters,” “Prince of the Magi,” and “the Word was made flesh and pitched his tent among us”), but they don’t maintain the doctrinal integrity of the King James Bible (which relied heavily on the Latin Vulgate as its base test). For example, they drop the traditional translation of “almah” as “virgin” in Isaiah.

The Douay Rheims suffers from two defects – the Challoner version relies too heavily on the King James text and the Douay Rheims uses the Latin Vulgate as the base text even in areas where St. Jerome did little or no work on the translation.
 
scottm said:
If you say that there is no modern translation of equivalent doctrinal purity, then I’ll say that your church leaders have failed in their duty of evangelism. That’s that. Put the burden on their back. It’s their job direct from God Himself to give me a Bible in my language, in addition to the beautiful language of Shakespeare.
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And some of us have done just that in these Forums; namely, calling out beloved shepherds to task for (1) giving us the NAB/RNAB, (2) not being concerned ENOUGH - if at all - with doctrinal precision in either the Scriptures or the Liturgy. But most of us figure they don’t read these Forums, or, if they do, don’t see themselves as at fault.

And, to boot, we even get a few posters who actually defend the bishops, reminding us that (1) the bishops would not lead us into error, and (2) we must be obedient. But you won’t find me among these.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
The Catholic version of Sola Scriptura is Sola Douay Rheims Onlyism.
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This is incorrect. With respect, there is no such thing as Sola Douay-Rheims Onlyism.

Sola Scriptura is the Protestant belief that Scripture interprets itself and alone is the source of all doctrine necessary for faith, thereby excluding Tradition.

A person (most likely Catholic) who subscribes to Douay-Rheims “onlyism” merely believes this bible to be accurate to the exclusion of all other English versions. Presumably, this Catholic otherwise adheres to the teachings of the Church, including that Sacred Tradition is a mode of transmission of divine revelation as is Scripture; and that the Catholic Church is the authentic and authoritative interpreter of Scripture.

Douay-Rheims onlyism is best compared with King James Version onlyism.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
Tell me why the Vatican itself uses the RSV-CE for their liturgy? I heard that they do. Correct me if I’m wrong.
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When there is Pontifical Mass, if a reading is in English it is either using the JB Lectionary or the NAB Lectionary. I have yet to hear the RSV-CE ever being used.

Further the Holy See does not use the RSV-CE or the RSV-2CE. It uses the 1971 RSV in the CCC. Yet with the silly issues of Protestants holding the copyright for this translation, it makes no sense widely implementing it when on their side they have put restrictions on the use of the RSV and have rejected more Catholic renderings.

The NAB is found on the Vatican website, but that also still doesn’t mean that it has Papal approval. Neither is the use of the JB, NAB or Grail Psalms in the Lectionary, Liturgy of the Hours / Divine Office, etc a signal that these translations are without problems.

Besides whenever one recites the Hail Mary, like it or not its the DRV that one uses. “Rejoice, so highly favoured Mary, the Lord is with you, happy are you amongst women, and happy is the fruit of your womb Jesus” anyone? 😉
 
So, this may be a tangent, but, what’s wrong with the NRSV? (the New Revised Standard Version as opposed to the Revised Standard Version) Why is it not an approved Catholic Bible?
 
Joel_Tunnah said:
1 The LORD is my shepherd; there is nothing I lack.
2 In green pastures you let me graze; to safe waters you lead me; 3 you restore my strength. You guide me along the right path for the sake of your name.
4 Even when I walk through a dark valley, I fear no harm for you are at my side; your rod and staff give me courage.
5 You set a table before me as my enemies watch; You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
6 Only goodness and love will pursue me all the days of my life; I will dwell in the house of the LORD for years to come.

That’s the NAB. The same text is used in the four volume Liturgy of the Hours.
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Actually, the NAB psalms are not used in the 4-volume LOTH. The Grail Psalms from 1963 are used.
For Psalm 23 in Vol. 1, see pp. 808 & 1057.

1 The Lord is my shepherd;
there is nothing I shall want.
2 Fresh and green are the pastures
where he gives me repose.
Near restful waters he leads me,
3 to revive my drooping spirit.
Code: 
He guides me along the right path;
he is true to his name.
4 If I should walk in the valley of darkness
no evil would I fear.
You are there with your crook and your staff;
with these you give me comfort.

5 You have prepared a banquet for me
in the sight of my foes.
My head you have anointed with oil;
my cup is overflowing.

6 Surely goodness and kindness shall follow me
all the days of my life.
In the Lord’s own house shall I dwell
for ever and ever.
 
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