The Russian Catholic Church

[ASimpleSinner]

I wonder why the Russian Catholic Church is so small…

Some Russian Catholics wonder that as well.

Pragmatically speaking, the existence of even these small Russian Orthodox communities in communion with Rome is a major sticking point in ecumenical relations with Moscow. The hey he raises about the presence of a Latin hierarchy to serve 600K Latins is appreciable. Never mind that before 1917 there were 3,000,000 Latin Catholics in Russia of Polish, German, and other ancestory… With a small percentage of converts to the Latin Catholic Church out of the intelligentsia and the ruling class.

All the blustory Mouscovite talk of “invasion” of sorts is doubly ironic to me - How can we be said to invade a country that has ruins of our churches and faithful who self-identify as Catholic? Secondly, if we WERE invading, we are doing a rather poor job of it!

If anyone thinks that JP2 could not have sent in busloads and busloads of apple-cheeked freshly ordained Polish and Ukrainian clergy, erected an eparchy for Russian Greek Catholics, and called on the top 15 largest religous communities in the Catholic Church to muster up 5-10 men each for a Russian Mission… Or called upon armies of Italian, African and Fillipino religious women to start making rosaries and scapulars to flood Mother Russia…

Well he could have. He didn’t. The blustering talk of “invasion” is odd, when Rome has shown great restraint - even resistence - to taking in Russian Orthodox. Rumors of questionable veracity that I have heard from multiple well connected sources all say the same thing - laity and clergy (perhaps even a bishop or 3) who have quietly worked through various and sundry different channels approaching Rome for full communion have been quietly told to “stay where you are”. To this day no bishop has been appointed to shephard these folks and all of them that have managed to become Catholic are under the jurisdiction of the Latin ordinaries.

Why aren’t there more Russian Orthodox in full communion with the Holy See? For my money, it is because some highly placed Catholic hierarchs have done a good job or not encouraging it and turning them away.

 

[invocation]

Why aren’t there more Russian Orthodox in full communion with the Holy See? For my money, it is because some highly placed Catholic hierarchs have done a good job or not encouraging it and turning them away.

Rome is looking for full communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, not individuals or even small groups of Orthodox converts. JP2 worked very hard towards that end during his tenure as Pope.

 

[Nicholas82]

Rome is looking for full communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, not individuals or even small groups of Orthodox converts. JP2 worked very hard towards that end during his tenure as Pope.

Rome knows what it needs to do to come into communion with the Orthodox Church. It can do what is necessary or not, we will continue as we always have either way; although who would not hope for the reconciliation of Rome to the Orthodox faith?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Rome knows what it needs to do to come into communion with the Orthodox Church. It can do what is necessary or not, we will continue as we always have either way; although who would not hope for the reconciliation of Rome to the Orthodox faith?

And venerable Nicholas what is it exactly that Rome must do to return to Orthodoxy?

If the Patriarchs of Moscow Jerusalem and Constantinople were gathered together on a nice sunny day for a fraternal visit - the biggest, the oldest and the canonical “first among equals” and B16 hopped in the papal jet, flew to where they were, and threw off his papal ring and lay prostate before the venerable Patriarchs begging, entreating, imploring and demanding forgiveness for his and the “Roman Church’s heterodox ways” and earnestly seeking to be brought back into “All Holy Orthodoxy” how exactly do you think that would go down?

Who or what body would be in a position to effect a reconciliation and accept us “back into Orthodoxy?” Who would approbate what acceptable western Orthodoxy would be? Who would approbate what allowances could be made for legitimate non-Byzantine theology and praxis?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Rome is looking for full communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, not individuals or even small groups of Orthodox converts. JP2 worked very hard towards that end during his tenure as Pope.

I understand Rome’s goal, I don’t always agree with the direction taken. When folks start knocking on the door and we quietly shoo them away… That never sits well with me, even if it is “for the greater possible good.”

 

[Nicholas82]

certainly nothing venerable about me I’m sure it would take no small amount of time to iron all things out, although I would like to see the situation you described. Wouldn’t that be a spectacle!

And venerable Nicholas what is it exactly that Rome must do to return to Orthodoxy?

If the Patriarchs of Moscow Jerusalem and Constantinople were gathered together on a nice sunny day for a fraternal visit - the biggest, the oldest and the canonical “first among equals” and B16 hopped in the papal jet, flew to where they were, and threw off his papal ring and lay prostate before the venerable Patriarchs begging, entreating, imploring and demanding forgiveness for his and the “Roman Church’s heterodox ways” and earnestly seeking to be brought back into “All Holy Orthodoxy” how exactly do you think that would go down?

Who or what body would be in a position to effect a reconciliation and accept us “back into Orthodoxy?” Who would approbate what acceptable western Orthodoxy would be? Who would approbate what allowances could be made for legitimate non-Byzantine theology and praxis?

 

[Muzhik]

Rome knows what it needs to do to come into communion with the Orthodox Church. It can do what is necessary or not, we will continue as we always have either way; although who would not hope for the reconciliation of Rome to the Orthodox faith?

Shalom, all!

Frankly, the Moscow Patriarchy scares the devil out of me. The Patriarchy was established by the Patriarch of Constantinople as a “backup” – if the Muslims ever conquored Constantinople, then Moscow would guarantee that Orthodoxy would still continue. Moscow takes this role to heart, and wants nothing to do with those who would compromise the purity of Orthodoxy by mingling with those heterodox heretics, the Roman Church. At every meeting where there has been attempts at raproachement between the Orthodox world and the Latin Patriarchate, things went well until the Russians showed up.

The Russian Orthodox Church, for almost a century, has been under the thumb of whomever was in charge in Moscow. The Sacrament of Reconciliation in the ROC has died out except for old women. The rumors were that the KGB tried to actively recruit seminarians (or even sent their own agents to become priests) and that what was said in the confessional would wind up in a report on some KGB officer’s desk. There was enough truth to these rumors that my second wife (May G_D keep her close) who was Russian, was in America three years before she went to confession.

The present administration of the Moscow Patriarchy is at the very least collaborationist with the KGB and quite possibly in league with the KGB. There are reports, some of which cannot be disputed, that indicate the present Patriarch (Alexei II) is now or at one time was a KGB officer. Even if we just split the difference (and Alexei himself has confirmed that collaboration occured in order to save the Church), we have a former KGB officer running Russia who is trying to ally Russia with the Muslim world (Putin is trying to get Russia admitted to the Organization of the Islamic Conference) while you have a former KGB collaborationist trying to consolidate religious power within Russia and (through her missions) throughout the world. Yes, I’m scared; no, given past behavior I don’t think I’m paranoid.

What really gives me the willies is, What if the Protestants are right, but they’re wrong? For centuries some of them have been preaching that Rome will be the home of the Antichrist and the source of the apostate church. The thing is, Moscow, as a Patriarchy, is on equal footing with Rome as part of the Apostolic Succession. What if the Protestants are right, in that it’s an apostolic Church that is part of the Apostolic Succession; but wrong in that it’s not Rome?

<><

 

[Hesychios]

Shalom, all!

Frankly, the Moscow Patriarchy scares the devil out of me. The Patriarchy was established by the Patriarch of Constantinople as a “backup” – if the Muslims ever conquored Constantinople, then Moscow would guarantee that Orthodoxy would still continue. Moscow takes this role to heart, and wants nothing to do with those who would compromise the purity of Orthodoxy by mingling with those heterodox heretics, the Roman Church. At every meeting where there has been attempts at raproachement between the Orthodox world and the Latin Patriarchate, things went well until the Russians showed up.

The Russian Orthodox Church, for almost a century, has been under the thumb of whomever was in charge in Moscow. The Sacrament of Reconciliation in the ROC has died out except for old women. The rumors were that the KGB tried to actively recruit seminarians (or even sent their own agents to become priests) and that what was said in the confessional would wind up in a report on some KGB officer’s desk. There was enough truth to these rumors that my second wife (May G_D keep her close) who was Russian, was in America three years before she went to confession.

The present administration of the Moscow Patriarchy is at the very least collaborationist with the KGB and quite possibly in league with the KGB. There are reports, some of which cannot be disputed, that indicate the present Patriarch (Alexei II) is now or at one time was a KGB officer. Even if we just split the difference (and Alexei himself has confirmed that collaboration occured in order to save the Church), we have a former KGB officer running Russia who is trying to ally Russia with the Muslim world (Putin is trying to get Russia admitted to the Organization of the Islamic Conference) while you have a former KGB collaborationist trying to consolidate religious power within Russia and (through her missions) throughout the world. Yes, I’m scared; no, given past behavior I don’t think I’m paranoid.

What really gives me the willies is, What if the Protestants are right, but they’re wrong? For centuries some of them have been preaching that Rome will be the home of the Antichrist and the source of the apostate church. The thing is, Moscow, as a Patriarchy, is on equal footing with Rome as part of the Apostolic Succession. What if the Protestants are right, in that it’s an apostolic Church that is part of the Apostolic Succession; but wrong in that it’s not Rome?

<><

This posts amazes me.

Constantinople did not establish the Moscow patriarchate as a “backup”.

Your ideas about what the ROC is like sound like cold war era information (when the terror was at it’s height), have you been to Russia? It’s possible to go now, and you can watch the people line up for confession yourself. Confession in the Orthodox church is not private, everyone can see everyone else there with the priest. Russian Orthodox are serious about confession before communion, and if the priest does not remember seeing the person at confession the night before he may deny that one the Eucharist.

Considering the past histories of our two churches, neither is fit to throw stones. But keep this in mind, ROCOR, the church of Russian exiles who fled the communist terror have reconciled with the Moscow patriarchate. The times have really changed.

Are there differences between us?..of course! It will take a long time to resolve them all.

If you are scared, that’s surely a problem and perhaps you need to discuss this with your pastor. Your recent Popes have been working very hard to reconcile with the Moscow Patriarchate too and they have a very good idea about the state of the ROC. Russian studies are big in Rome.

As for the Russian catholic church (the main topic of this thread)… The Russian Catholics (of the Byzantine-Slavonic rite) have always insisted that they are Orthodox in communion with Rome. It is integral to their identity.

They did ask for a bishop, and nominated a good man. They were assigned instead to the Latin church for administration. More efficient perhaps, but not the best approach on any number of other levels. I too believe that they should have been given a hierachy at the same time as the Latin catholics. It sends the wrong message to deny the one. Plus that would make it easier to reintegrate them into the Moscow patriarchate after our churches are reconciled, by admitting their bishop into the Holy Synod.

Michael

 

[bpbasilphx]

**The Sacrament of Reconciliation in the ROC has died out except for old women. **

Not in my experience. In the churchyard of the Moscow Patriarchal Parish where my father is buried, you were expected to go to confession at least once a month.

 

[Volodymyr]

Where are these many future Russian Greko-Catolics? I have never met a single Orthodox person who sought to be such a Uniate. Most Russian believers have only to look to problems of Ukraina and realize that Greko-Catolicism is only a way for Polish influence to increase, to accept Roman novelties such as Purgatoire, Immaculate conception and Infallibity of Bishop of rome.

Dear friends, Orthodoxy is having a wonderful renaissance after end of Soviet union. In my church at Vechernja is a long line of people for going to Confession - mostly young people. This I think is much different than American Catolicism - where Holy Mystery of Confession is also dead except for few old woman, according to what I have read at this very site.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Where are these many future Russian Greko-Catolics? I have never met a single Orthodox person who sought to be such a Uniate. Most Russian believers have only to look to problems of Ukraina and realize that Greko-Catolicism is only a way for Polish influence to increase, to accept Roman novelties such as Purgatoire, Immaculate conception and Infallibity of Bishop of rome.

Dear friends, Orthodoxy is having a wonderful renaissance after end of Soviet union. In my church at Vechernja is a long line of people for going to Confession - mostly young people. This I think is much different than American Catolicism - where Holy Mystery of Confession is also dead except for few old woman, according to what I have read at this very site.

Volodomyr you have been posting here long enough to know that the use of the pejorative term “uniate” is a rules violation.

Having said that, what exactly are you asking for proof of against your anecdotal observation that no one you know wants to enter into unia? You read Russian I am sure, go to the Russian Language Catholic Forum - forum.catholiconline.ru/ - and see for yourself what you can see.

The talk of “well confession is always busy at my parish” is of little use to anyone. It is busy at mine - among the people who do show up, not busy elsewhere and not everyone shows up. If we are all reduced to having a contest about where things are busiest that would be pretty useless and pedantic.

 

[Hesychios]

Volodomyr you have been posting here long enough …

English is a second language for Volodymyr, and he is just sharing his observations. Why don’t you cut him some slack?

There have been some nasty insinuations about his church and he felt a need to respond. This is a discussion forum, so he discusses…are you looking for ways to thin the herd here?

Your righteous indignation saddens me. How about a little charity?

 

[Peter_J]

This posts amazes me.

I wasn’t too favorably impressed by Muzhik’s post either. Nor by Volodymyr’s claim that “Most Russian believers have only to look to problems of Ukraina and realize that Greko-Catolicism is only a way for Polish influence to increase”.

 

[Peter_J]

I have never met a single Orthodox person who sought to be such a Uniate.

The preferred term is “Eastern Catholic” or “Greek Catholic”.

This I think is much different than American Catolicism - where Holy Mystery of Confession is also dead except for few old woman, according to what I have read at this very site.

You shouldn’t believe everything you read.

God bless,
Peter.

 

[Peter_J]

What really gives me the willies is, What if the Protestants are right, but they’re wrong? For centuries some of them have been preaching that Rome will be the home of the Antichrist and the source of the apostate church. The thing is, Moscow, as a Patriarchy, is on equal footing with Rome as part of the Apostolic Succession. What if the Protestants are right, in that it’s an apostolic Church that is part of the Apostolic Succession; but wrong in that it’s not Rome?

This is, to my mind, one of the most interesting styles of argument that a Catholic can use against Orthodoxy: “Protestants say such-and-such about us Catholics, which is ridiculous. But if they said it about the Orthodox, then they’d really be onto something.”

P.S. Protestants are a pretty diverse group. I don’t doubt that there are some Protestants who apply the term “antichrist” to the MP.

 

[Hesychios]

… Nor by Volodymyr’s claim that “Most Russian believers have only to look to problems of Ukraina and realize that Greko-Catolicism is only a way for Polish influence to increase”.

It is a common perception. But it comes from a difficult past.

Right or wrong people believe it. I think Polish politics included a lot of manipulation, they dominated a huge swath of territory for generations and placed two pretenders on the throne in Moscow. Religion was used as a means of control by both sides, the Russians playing the same game when possible.

The people of Ukraine were often right in the middle, victims of both sides.

It’s no secret that anti-Russian sentiment played a large part in the resurrection of the Greek Catholic church, anti-Polish sentiment among the rest in Ukraine plays a large part too…

It’s what people think…that will certainly be a factor in the future ecumenical developments whether we like it or not.

Michael

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Your righteous indignation saddens me. How about a little charity?

The feeling is mutual.

There is no shortage of righteous indignation and playing the “is outrage!” card in this forum.

Do you have any words of advice - in English or otherwise - for a man who writes: *

“Most Russian believers have only to look to problems of Ukraina and realize that Greko-Catolicism is only a way for Polish influence to increase, to accept Roman novelties such as Purgatoire, Immaculate conception and Infallibity of Bishop of rome.”

I gave Volodomyr a link to a Russian language forum where he can pursue these questions. (forum.catholiconline.ru/) He can find some of these Russians he isn’t sure exists there.

 

[Peter_J]

Do you have any words of advice - in English or otherwise - for a man who writes:

“Most Russian believers have only to look to problems of Ukraina and realize that Greko-Catolicism is only a way for Polish influence to increase, to accept Roman novelties such as Purgatoire, Immaculate conception and Infallibity of Bishop of rome.”

I complained about that too. But, to be fair, Hesychios has commented on that already (#16).

playing the “is outrage!” card

Hmm … Is there something else we could call that?

 

[Volodymyr]

T

I gave Volodomyr a link to a Russian language forum where he can pursue these questions. (forum.catholiconline.ru/) where are Russians who want to be Catolics.

This is most ironical - the sait that you provide is in Russian language - but it is a Polish sait - Zagloba - is well known Polish landed family from The Polish Litvian Commonwelath. Most famous Zagloba is a character in Henryk Senkiewicz’s books With Fire and Sword (Ogniem i Mieczem) and** Flood** (Potop). . It is the comic character Jan Onufrey Zagloba who is “Polish” anti-Orthodox patriot. The person maintaining this sait has picture of this comic Polish character and his Polish appelation - Pan Zagloba -for e-mails.

Americans I think will not understand easily but perhaps this example will help: To offer such a Polish-run sait as evidence of “Russians” wanting to be Catolic is like showing you that there is an English-language sait (perhaps run by Saoodis) who write about “many” Americans who become Islamists. Just as the Saoodi source would make one question the information - the Polish source here is also very making uncertain.

Sorry to have used a common word to describe Greko Catolics which is widely used here, only to mean that they chose Unia of Berest. My apologizes if means something terrible.

 

[Volodymyr]

Mistake