The Russian Catholic Church

[Hesychios]

This is most ironical …

Not only ironic, but comic.

 

[Madaglan]

The Russian Orthodox Church, for almost a century, has been under the thumb of whomever was in charge in Moscow. The Sacrament of Reconciliation in the ROC has died out except for old women.

What is the basis for this assertion? I personally know a Russian Orthodox person who is not old and who, along with her children, has gone to confession in Russia. In Russia, one does not receive communion unless one first goes to confession. The two almost always go together, as a rule.

The rumors were that the KGB tried to actively recruit seminarians (or even sent their own agents to become priests) and that what was said in the confessional would wind up in a report on some KGB officer’s desk. There was enough truth to these rumors that my second wife (May G_D keep her close) who was Russian, was in America three years before she went to confession.

Rumors. Simply that. There is a book that argues the same, along Catholic lines, arguing that the KGB sent atheistic men into the Vatican to become seminarians and then high-ranking priests!

Check it out: tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/217/

The present administration of the Moscow Patriarchy is at the very least collaborationist with the KGB and quite possibly in league with the KGB.

And the Vatican is in cahoots with the Freemasons and the Illuminati.

There are reports, some of which cannot be disputed, that indicate the present Patriarch (Alexei II) is now or at one time was a KGB officer.

Pope Benedict XVI was at one time a Nazi.

Pope John XXIII was a Freemason.

 

[mark_a]

Some Russian Catholics wonder that as well.

Pragmatically speaking, the existence of even these small Russian Orthodox communities in communion with Rome is a major sticking point in ecumenical relations with Moscow. The hey he raises about the presence of a Latin hierarchy to serve 600K Latins is appreciable. Never mind that before 1917 there were 3,000,000 Latin Catholics in Russia of Polish, German, and other ancestory… With a small percentage of converts to the Latin Catholic Church out of the intelligentsia and the ruling class.

All the blustory Mouscovite talk of “invasion” of sorts is doubly ironic to me - How can we be said to invade a country that has ruins of our churches and faithful who self-identify as Catholic? Secondly, if we WERE invading, we are doing a rather poor job of it!

If anyone thinks that JP2 could not have sent in busloads and busloads of apple-cheeked freshly ordained Polish and Ukrainian clergy, erected an eparchy for Russian Greek Catholics, and called on the top 15 largest religous communities in the Catholic Church to muster up 5-10 men each for a Russian Mission… Or called upon armies of Italian, African and Fillipino religious women to start making rosaries and scapulars to flood Mother Russia…

Well he could have. He didn’t. The blustering talk of “invasion” is odd, when Rome has shown great restraint - even resistence - to taking in Russian Orthodox. Rumors of questionable veracity that I have heard from multiple well connected sources all say the same thing - laity and clergy (perhaps even a bishop or 3) who have quietly worked through various and sundry different channels approaching Rome for full communion have been quietly told to “stay where you are”. To this day no bishop has been appointed to shephard these folks and all of them that have managed to become Catholic are under the jurisdiction of the Latin ordinaries.

Why aren’t there more Russian Orthodox in full communion with the Holy See? For my money, it is because some highly placed Catholic hierarchs have done a good job or not encouraging it and turning them away.

I heard on “Light of the East” that the Catholic Church is footing the bill for some Orthodox to go into Russia and re-evangelize folks.

 

[JackQ]

Rome knows what it needs to do to come into communion with the Orthodox Church. It can do what is necessary or not, we will continue as we always have either way; although who would not hope for the reconciliation of Rome to the Orthodox faith?

This is why the approach of seeking to have the Orthodox churches reunite with the Catholic Church in a corporate sense, while well-intentioned, is misconceived. The Russian Orthodox Church, in any event, will never do it. They will never acknowledge the authority of the Pope in any sense, no matter how it is phrased. They will never tolerate the filioque clause. They will insist on acceptance of the Palamite doctrine of the essence and energies of God. They will insist on renunciation of Vatican I. We have no better prospects of success in uniting with the Russian Orthodox Church than we do with the Southern Baptists.

The Russian Orthodox Church’s insistence that we respect their territory would only make sense if they considered the Catholic faith valid. They don’t. What they are trying to do by their insistence is avoid free dialogue regarding religion in Russia. If the Catholic Church began to evangelize Russia in earnest, the result would be that the Russian Orthodox Church would seek assistance from the arms of the state to make it stop, much as they used the communist regime to take churches away from the Cahtolics and give them to the Orthodox. We should do it anyway.

 

[Peter_J]

This is why the approach of seeking to have the Orthodox churches reunite with the Catholic Church in a corporate sense, while well-intentioned, is misconceived. The Russian Orthodox Church, in any event, will never do it. They will never acknowledge the authority of the Pope in any sense, no matter how it is phrased. They will never tolerate the filioque clause. They will insist on acceptance of the Palamite doctrine of the essence and energies of God. They will insist on renunciation of Vatican I. We have no better prospects of success in uniting with the Russian Orthodox Church than we do with the Southern Baptists.

The Russian Orthodox Church’s insistence that we respect their territory would only make sense if they considered the Catholic faith valid. They don’t. What they are trying to do by their insistence is avoid free dialogue regarding religion in Russia. If the Catholic Church began to evangelize Russia in earnest, the result would be that the Russian Orthodox Church would seek assistance from the arms of the state to make it stop, much as they used the communist regime to take churches away from the Cahtolics and give them to the Orthodox. We should do it anyway.

No comment.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I heard on “Light of the East” that the Catholic Church is footing the bill for some Orthodox to go into Russia and re-evangelize folks.

If you go to the Catholic Near East Welfare Association’s website you will also find that this papal charity is hard at work supporting many, many projects in the Near East. More than a few of them are for the rebuilding or support of Greek Orthodox parishes in the Middle East.

Rumors of “uniatizing Jesuits with horns” are greatly exaggerated.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

This is why the approach of seeking to have the Orthodox churches reunite with the Catholic Church in a corporate sense, while well-intentioned, is misconceived. The Russian Orthodox Church, in any event, will never do it. They will never acknowledge the authority of the Pope in any sense, no matter how it is phrased. They will never tolerate the filioque clause. They will insist on acceptance of the Palamite doctrine of the essence and energies of God. They will insist on renunciation of Vatican I. We have no better prospects of success in uniting with the Russian Orthodox Church than we do with the Southern Baptists.

The Russian Orthodox Church’s insistence that we respect their territory would only make sense if they considered the Catholic faith valid. They don’t. What they are trying to do by their insistence is avoid free dialogue regarding religion in Russia. If the Catholic Church began to evangelize Russia in earnest, the result would be that the Russian Orthodox Church would seek assistance from the arms of the state to make it stop, much as they used the communist regime to take churches away from the Cahtolics and give them to the Orthodox. We should do it anyway.

Mostly what is regretable is that the general tone coming out of Moscow in its decrying of our presence in Russia like some sort of invasion (neverminding that the Catholic Church was utterly decimated in the last 90 years - we were 3,000,0000 strong in 1917, we are 600,000 today).

From there, it is understandable some have come to the above conclusion.

 

[Peter_J]

Actually the Catholic Church numbers somewhere around 1 billion.

 

[Amadeus]

Actually the Catholic Church numbers somewhere around 1 billion.

ASimpleSinner is talking about the approximate number of Catholics in Russia (or in the Russian Federation) today.

He comes close. The statistics as of the end of 2004 (2005 Annuario Pontificio) counted Catholics (East and West) in Russia at around 780,000.

The Statistical Yearbook covering 2000 up to the end of 2006 just published by the Vatican put the number of Catholics worldwide at a steady 17.3% of the world’s total population of 6.7 billion, or roughly at 1.15 billion Catholics.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Rumors. Simply that. There is a book that argues the same, along Catholic lines, arguing that the KGB sent atheistic men into the Vatican to become seminarians and then high-ranking priests!

Check it out: tanbooks.com/index.php/p…roduct_id/217/

The present administration of the Moscow Patriarchy is at the very least collaborationist with the KGB and quite possibly in league with the KGB.

This is some type of sick joke on your part, right?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

This is most ironical - the sait that you provide is in Russian language - but it is a Polish sait - Zagloba - is well known Polish landed family from The Polish Litvian Commonwelath. Most famous Zagloba is a character in Henryk Senkiewicz’s books With Fire and Sword (Ogniem i Mieczem) and** Flood** (Potop). . It is the comic character Jan Onufrey Zagloba who is “Polish” anti-Orthodox patriot. The person maintaining this sait has picture of this comic Polish character and his Polish appelation - Pan Zagloba -for e-mails.

And from that forum (regardless of who administors it) You can find no Russians who are Catholic? Certainly Karl Keating could be “accused” of a lot of things, the voices here don’t echo all of his sentiments. The founder’s views don’t preclude finding resources to help you find evidence of the fact that there in fact are some Russians who have become Catholics.

 

[JackQ]

No comment.

No response.

 

[Diak]

XB!

Dear friends, Orthodoxy is having a wonderful renaissance after end of Soviet union. In my church at Vechernja is a long line of people for going to Confession - mostly young people. This I think is much different than American Catolicism - where Holy Mystery of Confession is also dead except for few old woman, according to what I have read at this very site.

That is true, and thankfully much of the renaissance is to churches of the Kyivan tradition (UGCC, UAOC, UOC-KP) that are not subject to a foreign church in Moscow who has repeatedly denied the historic church of Kyivan Rus’ autocephaly, even when the Church of Moscow owes its ecclesiastical patrimony to Kyivan Rus’.

I was elated to hear President Yushchenko’s recent meetings with the various Orthodox jurisdictions and representatives of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
FDRLB

 

[Madaglan]

This is some type of sick joke on your part, right?

I wasn’t advocating those propositions, simply showing how absurd are muzhin’s claims concerning the Russian Church.

 

[Volodymyr]

The churches UGCC, UAOC, UOC-KP that are not subject to a foreign church

The only Orthodox church in Ukraina is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. So called Filaret Church or “Kyiv Patriarch” is creation in 1992 by Civil Officials. Avtokefalna Church is creation of emigated Ukrainians under Polish influence from Canada. Greko Catolic church is a Catolic church not Orthodox.

Ukrainian Orthodox church is not under control of “foreign” church in Moskva - this is where Patriarch of our church is. Ukrainian Greko Catolics and American Catolics seem to be completely under control of foreign church with which they do not speak same language, have same history.

Ukraina and Russia are not so easy to separate as you would believe. They are identical solidly from 800-s to Mongol Invasion. In 1300 Metropoit Petro of Kyiv because Mitropolit Petr of Moskva because of Mongol invasion. He is now St Peter, Saint-bishop of Moskva. Therefore true successor of Mitropolits of Ancient Kyiv is Patriarch of Moskva. But you know this difference.

Many of us in Ukraina have most of family living in Russia - for me in Belgorod and in Rostov-na-Donu. To find out what Western Ukrainians think must ask Atenazij - he is from there and his relatives live in Poland. We are a country with perhaps too many outside infuences - but such is history

 

[Peter_J]

You make an interesting point, Volodymyr: is it fair to say the UOC (or UOC-MP as it is also called) is more “subject to a foreign church” than is the UGCC? (Not forgetting, of course, that this thread is really about the Russian Catholic Church.)

 

[Volodymyr]

quote]
Is it fair to say the UOC is more “subject to a foreign church” than is the UGCC?

You are obvious joking or unaware of the role of Bishop of Rome in Catolic Church. He is the supreme director of all - appointing all bishops, approving all decisions. Patriarch of Moskow has no authority in Metropoija of Kyiv - we pray for him. He does not appoint bishops, make decisions.

No UGCC is controlled by foreign bishop living in Italy who speaks German. We pray for Estonian national who is now Patriarch of Moskow but who does not “rule” our church.

 

[Ghosty]

You are obvious joking or unaware of the role of Bishop of Rome in Catolic Church. He is the supreme director of all - appointing all bishops, approving all decisions.

Perhaps you should learn how the Catholic Church operates before discussing such things. The Pope certainly doesn’t appoint all Bishops, or approve all decisions, of the UGCC.

The UGCC, within its home territory, appoints its own Bishops, writes its own encyclicals, makes its own decisions with regards to the exercise of its Liturgy and ecclesial life.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Peter_J]

Is it fair to say the UOC is more “subject to a foreign church” than is the UGCC?

Neither. I was suggesting that perhaps it really isn’t fair to say that the UOC (UOC-MP) is more “subject to a foreign church” than is the UGCC.

 

[Volodymyr]

The UGCC, within its home territory, appoints its own Bishops, writes its own encyclicals, makes its own decisions with regards to the exercise of its Liturgy and ecclesial life.

But this is exact example of Roman bishop control - why should bishop of Italian city decide where Ukrainian church can appoint bishops. If Ukrainians now live in Germany - should in Germany have Bishops appointed not by Bishop of Rome but by Ukrainian Church. No, my friend, the entire system is demonstration of centralized authority in Rome - but willing to give Ukrainians Catolics some local authority but only if they live in current 1991 sized Ukraina - those living in what is Ukraina historically but now in Poland are not under authority of Greko Catolic Chuirch of Ukraine, but control of Bishop of Rome. This is foreign Roman control of the Greko Catolic church.