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Ridgerunner
Guest
I would very much like to hear more about Russian Catholics. Might Edmac or a Moderator care to open a thread in the Eastern Christianity forum section? I never could figure out how to open one.
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Pani_Rose
Guest
When you come into a forum there is a tab at the top that says ‘New Thread’ click on it. Then you can start a new thread.
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Edmac
Guest
First, my thanks to Mardukm for his kind remarks. Understand
that it is hard to talk about the Russian Catholic Church because
we are so few and so scattered. We also don’t communicate with
each other very well (hardly at all, to be forthright). News from
Russia is non-existant, for whatever reasons. The rest of us
are inheritors of emigre communities, the emigres themselves
being long dead. However,we are still around, and, as I have said
on another Forum, that in itself is remarkable, as we have so
few friends. Not only do the emigre communities continue to
exist (improbably) but we again are present in Russia. That we
are here by the will of God I have no doubt.
We are unique among the Churches of the Unia in that the
people who first formed our Church were motivated by nothing
other than the belief that to be in accordance with the will of
God they ought to be in communion with the See of Peter.
I submit that the fact that the Holy See accepted us as a
[sui juris] Church within the Catholic Church was little less
than miraculous. Improbable at least.Yet it did, and, moreover
commissioned us to continue to celebrate as we had as
Russian Orthodox, “neither more, nor less, nor differently”.
That was in 1905. Twelve years later came the Revolution. Our people were killed, imprisoned or scattered. How could we
expect such a tiny community to survive that? Yet it did
and does, in spite of what I am forced to call the shuddering
reluctance of Rome to recognize or encourage our existance,
the hostility of both the Roman Church in Russia and the
Orthodox Patriarchate. As far as the Roman Church in Russia
goes, our worst enemy has been sent off to his homeland of
Belarus, still a Stalinst state, and good luck to him. He will have
a lot to cope with. The Holy See, no doubt against the will of
some of its bureaucrats, has at least recognized our existance
in Russian lands, if only minimally. What happens next is in
God’s hands.
I myself am no one in all this. I have no office and speak only
for myself. But, since I am here and others who might speak
better are not, I call them like I see them.
Edmac
that it is hard to talk about the Russian Catholic Church because
we are so few and so scattered. We also don’t communicate with
each other very well (hardly at all, to be forthright). News from
Russia is non-existant, for whatever reasons. The rest of us
are inheritors of emigre communities, the emigres themselves
being long dead. However,we are still around, and, as I have said
on another Forum, that in itself is remarkable, as we have so
few friends. Not only do the emigre communities continue to
exist (improbably) but we again are present in Russia. That we
are here by the will of God I have no doubt.
We are unique among the Churches of the Unia in that the
people who first formed our Church were motivated by nothing
other than the belief that to be in accordance with the will of
God they ought to be in communion with the See of Peter.
I submit that the fact that the Holy See accepted us as a
[sui juris] Church within the Catholic Church was little less
than miraculous. Improbable at least.Yet it did, and, moreover
commissioned us to continue to celebrate as we had as
Russian Orthodox, “neither more, nor less, nor differently”.
That was in 1905. Twelve years later came the Revolution. Our people were killed, imprisoned or scattered. How could we
expect such a tiny community to survive that? Yet it did
and does, in spite of what I am forced to call the shuddering
reluctance of Rome to recognize or encourage our existance,
the hostility of both the Roman Church in Russia and the
Orthodox Patriarchate. As far as the Roman Church in Russia
goes, our worst enemy has been sent off to his homeland of
Belarus, still a Stalinst state, and good luck to him. He will have
a lot to cope with. The Holy See, no doubt against the will of
some of its bureaucrats, has at least recognized our existance
in Russian lands, if only minimally. What happens next is in
God’s hands.
I myself am no one in all this. I have no office and speak only
for myself. But, since I am here and others who might speak
better are not, I call them like I see them.
Edmac
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Catherine_Grant
Guest
The moderator favors Pani Rose’s method because it isn’t as easy to split posts out of one thread into another as I’ve done here. 
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dessert
Guest
This is for anyone who wants to answer then;The moderator favors Pani Rose’s method because it isn’t as easy to split posts out of one thread into another as I’ve done here.
I know this might be a bit off topic but I have seen recently (an old movie) like to watch it once inawhile, the movie Dr. Zhivago, of course it is a novel movie after a russian doctor poet- but the priests at the beginning of the movie attending his parents funeral are they russian orthodox? They do quite a ceremony at the grave. Ever since I have rewatched it I have wanted to know.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
There are to my knowledge only two Russian Catholic chapels in the USA, both of which are under the local Latin Ordinary.
One of my friends was ordained deacon at Abp. Levada’s request for the RC chapel in San Francisco by a Ruthenian bishop, and later at his request granted the right to wear a purple skouphia.
His twin brother, btw, is an Orthodox Archpriest.
One of my friends was ordained deacon at Abp. Levada’s request for the RC chapel in San Francisco by a Ruthenian bishop, and later at his request granted the right to wear a purple skouphia.
His twin brother, btw, is an Orthodox Archpriest.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Edmac:
I’m fascinated by this, but am not sure what, even, to ask. I am, of course, impeded by my very sketchy knowledge of Eastern Catholics generally. So, please forgive my ignorance, which I am sure I will continue to exhibit.
I have been aware for a long time that the Bolsheviks treated all religions badly, but that they treated Catholicism the worst of all. I always assumed, without really knowing, that those who wrote about it were talking about Ukrainian Catholics or Latin Catholics from the territories taken from Poland or from Lithuania or exiled from some other Eastern European place. I see I missed an entire dimension of this.
I read what Wikipedia had to say, but I’m not sure how complete that is. Are there now any Russian Catholic bishops?
What is the relationship of Russian Catholic bishops, for that matter, with the Latin exiles, like the Poles and Lithuanians who got tossed into Siberia, and many of whom are still there?
I see the Mass (liturgy) is traditionally said in Old Slavonic. Is that true in the US as well?
Even after reading Wikipedia, I am unclear about the relationship between at least some of the Old Believers and the Russian Catholic Church. But clearly the Russian Catholic Church did include some Old Believers. I am just floored by that. I recall A. Solzhenitzyn talking about the Old Believers, and how they were quite a pious group. I recall his telling how a group of them escaped de-kulakization by moving way down some river; the Irtysh perhaps, into the taiga, and were only discovered shortly after WWII when an aviator found a village that was not on the maps. The communists, of course, couldn’t tolerate that and hauled them all away.
I also see that the Exarch Leonid Feodorov was sent to Solovki! Absolutely fascinating!
Are the Russian Catholics concentrated in any particular part of Russia?
I’m fascinated by this, but am not sure what, even, to ask. I am, of course, impeded by my very sketchy knowledge of Eastern Catholics generally. So, please forgive my ignorance, which I am sure I will continue to exhibit.
I have been aware for a long time that the Bolsheviks treated all religions badly, but that they treated Catholicism the worst of all. I always assumed, without really knowing, that those who wrote about it were talking about Ukrainian Catholics or Latin Catholics from the territories taken from Poland or from Lithuania or exiled from some other Eastern European place. I see I missed an entire dimension of this.
I read what Wikipedia had to say, but I’m not sure how complete that is. Are there now any Russian Catholic bishops?
What is the relationship of Russian Catholic bishops, for that matter, with the Latin exiles, like the Poles and Lithuanians who got tossed into Siberia, and many of whom are still there?
I see the Mass (liturgy) is traditionally said in Old Slavonic. Is that true in the US as well?
Even after reading Wikipedia, I am unclear about the relationship between at least some of the Old Believers and the Russian Catholic Church. But clearly the Russian Catholic Church did include some Old Believers. I am just floored by that. I recall A. Solzhenitzyn talking about the Old Believers, and how they were quite a pious group. I recall his telling how a group of them escaped de-kulakization by moving way down some river; the Irtysh perhaps, into the taiga, and were only discovered shortly after WWII when an aviator found a village that was not on the maps. The communists, of course, couldn’t tolerate that and hauled them all away.
I also see that the Exarch Leonid Feodorov was sent to Solovki! Absolutely fascinating!
Are the Russian Catholics concentrated in any particular part of Russia?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I don’t understand. Is the purple skouphia peculiar to the Russian Catholic Church?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Grazie, Pani Rose!When you come into a forum there is a tab at the top that says ‘New Thread’ click on it. Then you can start a new thread.
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mardukm
Guest
Dear brother Edmac,
I was wondering about this part of your comment:
Long ago, I read an article in the Los Angeles times, more than a two-page spread, of the experiences of the Catholic Church in Russia - it was a personal interview with a Russian Catholic immigrant. I feel so close to my Russian Catholic brothers and sisters because of your suffering, continued even after the fall of communism. The Russian Catholic Church’s devotion to the Holy Father is truly inspiring.to me. I recall reading a few years ago regarding an event (I think it was the millenial celebrations) when the Russian Catholics recited the Creed in Latin for the Holy Father. I’m probably jumbling up my events and dates, but if I do remember one thing, it was the recitiation in Latin of something by my Russian Catholic brethren.
Abundant blessings,
Marduk
I was wondering about this part of your comment:
Did not the Holy See recently establish two or three epharchies in Russia for the Russian Catholic Church, even at the cost of relations with the ROC? That does not seem like a merely minimal recognition. Of course, you are certainly more aware of your Church’s situation than myself. In light of the establishment of the new eparchies, can you explain your comment that the recognition is only minimal? Are the Russian Catholics expecting patriarchal status?
Long ago, I read an article in the Los Angeles times, more than a two-page spread, of the experiences of the Catholic Church in Russia - it was a personal interview with a Russian Catholic immigrant. I feel so close to my Russian Catholic brothers and sisters because of your suffering, continued even after the fall of communism. The Russian Catholic Church’s devotion to the Holy Father is truly inspiring.to me. I recall reading a few years ago regarding an event (I think it was the millenial celebrations) when the Russian Catholics recited the Creed in Latin for the Holy Father. I’m probably jumbling up my events and dates, but if I do remember one thing, it was the recitiation in Latin of something by my Russian Catholic brethren.
Abundant blessings,
Marduk
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Ah! So there now are eparchs in Russia! Help me out here, please. They are equivalent to bishops in the Latin side of things? Something more than that, perhaps?
Is there some reason why the Russian Catholic Church should not have Patriarchal status? I’m not being a smart aleck in asking. I just want to know.
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Aramis
Guest
An Eparch IS a Bishop
A patriarchal church tends to be one that had a recognized patriarch pre-union, and said patriarch came into union with his whole church. In the case of the Russian Catholics, they are few, many are Roman, while many are Byzantine, at least by praxis, if the Russian equivalent of this forum is any indicator. Further, the Russo-Romans are just as divided between TLM and NO adherents.
Just because Moscow is a patriarchate does not imply nor suggest that the Russian Byzantines should likewise be patriarchal.
Now, the Ukrainians, they probably should be a patriarchal church, but are not (tho’ the differences are few between patriarchal and major archiepiscopal). The big one is that a patriarchal church gets almost no roman oversight on bishops, and elects their patriarch without Roman interference, while a major archbishop elect is chosen by the synod, and isn’t the major archbishop until the Pope approves, and has to consult with the Pope on all bishops/eparchs.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
Which, of course, is what made them catholic.Dear brother Edmac,
I was wondering about this part of your comment:
Did not the Holy See recently establish two or three epharchies in Russia for the Russian Catholic Church, even at the cost of relations with the ROC? That does not seem like a merely minimal recognition. Of course, you are certainly more aware of your Church’s situation than myself. In light of the establishment of the new eparchies, can you explain your comment that the recognition is only minimal? Are the Russian Catholics expecting patriarchal status?
Long ago, I read an article in the Los Angeles times, more than a two-page spread, of the experiences of the Catholic Church in Russia - it was a personal interview with a Russian Catholic immigrant. I feel so close to my Russian Catholic brothers and sisters because of your suffering, continued even after the fall of communism. The Russian Catholic Church’s devotion to the Holy Father is truly inspiring.to me. I recall reading a few years ago regarding an event (I think it was the millenial celebrations) when the Russian Catholics recited the Creed in Latin for the Holy Father. I’m probably jumbling up my events and dates, but if I do remember one thing, it was the recitiation in Latin of something by my Russian Catholic brethren.
Was it with filioque?
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marlo
Guest
wow, imagine what would happen during family dinner
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Mar_Isaac
Guest
What are the odds of that…
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Irish_Melkite
Guest
As my Russian brother, Edmac, isn’t here to answer, let me step in and disabuse folks of some of the misinformation regarding my Russian Byzantine brethren.
The Russian Greek-Catholic Church is the most recently formed of the Byzantine Rite Churches sui iuris and among the most recent of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches to have come into communion with Rome.
The seeds of the Church were planted in 1896 when Father Nicholas Tolstoy, a Russian Orthodox priest, presented himself at Rome and sought communion with the Catholic Church. It was granted and he was incardinated into the Melkite Church Why to the Melkites? Among the speculative theories:
(continued)
The Russian Greek-Catholic Church is the most recently formed of the Byzantine Rite Churches sui iuris and among the most recent of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches to have come into communion with Rome.
The seeds of the Church were planted in 1896 when Father Nicholas Tolstoy, a Russian Orthodox priest, presented himself at Rome and sought communion with the Catholic Church. It was granted and he was incardinated into the Melkite Church Why to the Melkites? Among the speculative theories:
- that the sole Byzantine hierarch in Rome at the time might have been a Melkite bishop
- that no one considered that there would ever be a distinct Russian ecclesia and, so, it was decided to ascribe him to the only Byzantine Church of patriarchal status
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Irish_Melkite
Guest
Bless Vladyka,
There are four Russian Greek-Catholic churches in the US:
St Michael the Archangel Russian Catholic Chapel, NYC
Ss Cyril & Methodius Russian Catholic Community, Denver, CO
Our Lady of Fatima Byzantine Russian Church, San Francisco, CA
St Andrew Russian Catholic Church, El Segundo, CA
All are, indeed, subject to the local Latin ordinary, as there is no canonical jurisdiction for the Russian Catholics in the US.
The parish in El Segundo is unique in that, while canonically subject to the Latin Archbishop of LA, it is under the spiritual omophor of the Eparch of Newton of the Melkites. This came about at the specific request of the Latin ordinary. Additionally, the pastor, Father Archimandrite Alexei Smith, a Russian Greek-Catholic, was educated in the Melkite seminary and ordained by the Melkite Eparch, for the service of the Russians. The temple serves both St Andrew’s Russian and St Paul’s Melkite parishes and Father Alexei pastors both.
The diaconal ordination that you reference in SF was performed by Bishop Nicholas (Samra), Auxiliary Emeritus of the Melkite Eparchy of Newton - not a Ruthenian hierarch. Although the SF parish is not formally under the spiritual omophor of the Melkites, our hierarchs have several times provided for its specific episcopal needs, at the request of the Latin ordinary.
At the invitation of the Latin ordinary, the community in Denver receives episcopal services and spiritual guidance from the Eparch of Saint George in Canton of the Romanians,
The present administrator of St Michael’s in NYC, Father Economos Romanos Russo, is a priest of the Melkite Eparchy of Newton.
A fifth Russian church - Our Lady of Kazan Chapel - was situated in South Boston, MA, and flourished under the loving care of His Eminence Richard Cardinal Cushing, of blessed memory, and the spiritual omophor of Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), also of blessed memory. Regretably, it was canonically suppressed in 1974, a few years after the Cardinal’s repose.
A chapel also formerly existed at Fordham University, staffed by Jesuits of the Byzantine Rite, and The Chapel of the Theotokos of Tikhvin - at Mt Angel Benedictine Abbey in Mt Angel, OR. The latter served according to the Pre-Nikonian (Old Rite) Usage of the Great Russian Rescension. Neither of those are presently active.
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Irish_Melkite
Guest
My Russian brothers and sisters are not expecting patriarchal status, but they would certainly appreciate a bishop, consistent with their status as a an eparchial Church sui iuris. And I doubt muchly that it was my Byzantine brethren who were happily reciting the Creed in Latin for the Pope - that would rather be their Latin cousins.
There are no hierarchs of the Russian Greek-Catholic Church. All of the bishops appointed by Rome for Russia in recent times have been Latin. Bishop Joseph Werth, SJ, was designated Ordinary for Faithful of the Oriental Rites in Russia. While apparently well thought-of, Bishop Wirth is a Latin and there has yet to even be a formal announcement as to canonical erection of the Ordinariate. The Russian Greek-Catholic Church is a sui iuris Church sine episcopi.
The Church has two canonical jurisdictions - both extant still, albeit sede vacante. One is the Exarchate of Moscow of the Russians, the other the Exarchate of Harbin (China) of the Russians. Those who held title to those Sees included Blessed Exarchs Leonid (Feodorov) and Kliment (Sheptitsky). A photo of Blessed Leonid in vesture, suggests that he may have received episcopal ordination. Both, as well as others who served as vice-Exarchs and Exarchial Administrators were martyred.
The last known hierarchs of the Church were Vladyka Alexander (Evreinov) and Vladyka Andrei (Katkoff), MIC, both of blessed memory. Vladyka Andrei reposed in 1996 IIRC. In their lifetimes, both were publicly known only as episcopi ordinans. However, some documents have been unearthed in Rome relatively recently which suggest that one or both may have been accorded the title of Exarch of Moscow in camera.
And, to answer a query someone made, there is a parish presently in Russia which serves according to the Old Ritual. It is, to my knowledge, the last surviving instance of the never large Katolicheskaja Stariobriodtsi.
Many years,
Neil
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Brother Neil,
I have attended Divine Liturgy at Ss Cyril and Methodius Russo Catholic Community here in Denver. It is held at St Elizabeth of Hungary Latin Rite Church and I believe is under the local Latin Ordinary, Abp. Chaput.
stelizofhungary.org/cm_page.html
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Irish_Melkite
Guest
Yes, it is. However, Archbishop Chaput has invited Vladyka John (Botean) of the Romanians to provide episcopal care - such as subdiaconal ordination and similar services - for the community. Vladyka has done so on, I believe, 2 occasions.
Many years,
Neil
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