The Russian Catholic Church

[Semper_Fi_1]

Yes, it is. However, Archbishop Chaput has invited Vladyka John (Botean) of the Romanians to provide episcopal care - such as subdiaconal ordination and similar services - for the community. Vladyka has done so on, I believe, 2 occasions.

Many years,

Neil

Vladyka John is an Orthodox Christian, correct?

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Vladyka John is an Orthodox Christian, correct?

Vladyka John Michael Botean is the Eparch of Saint George’s in Canton of the Romanian Greek-Catholics in the US. He is perhaps best known for his public declaration that Catholics of his jurisdiction should not participate in the war in Iraq

Many years,

Neil

 

[Ridgerunner]

Irish:

Is there some reason why the two exarchs have not been replaced? Seems reasonable to me to do it. Is this possibly another “in camera” thing due to the hostility of both China and Russia to Catholicism? If I recall correctly, the Russian government got very hostile when the Church appointed what I think was a LATIN bishop in Russia, to serve the Poles and other Latin Eastern Europeans that had been “Gulagized” long ago. Perhaps they would go even more ballistic if an Eastern bishop was appointed.

???

 

[Edmac]

Having been off-line for the last seven hours or so, I find
myself rather overwhelmed by the number of posts I find here.
I see that our brother Irish-Melkite has answered many of
the questions asked therein with great accuracy.

I don’t know where anyone got the idea that any Russian
Catholic eparchies (bishoprics) have been created. We
have no bishops at all. In Russia the few Russian-Catholic
communities are under the jurisdiction of Bishop Joseph
Werth SJ of Novisibirsk, a man known to be sympathetic
to Eastern Catholics, and a Russian citizen of German
descent (which is important).

Elsewhere Russian-Catholic communities are generally
under the jurisdiction of the local Latin ordinary, as we are
in NYC.

To claim a Patriarchate for so small a Church wouldn’t make much
sense. At the moment, I think we’d settle for an Protopresbyter.
What we need is a eparch in Russia and an exarch for the
rest of the world.

The Russian dioceses referred to are Latin; there are four of them.
Patriarch Alexei II has recently complained about their existence.
He is very fond of complaining. The the Moscow Patriarchate
has dioceses in Europe and the Americas. He rejoins that these
are in some unexplained sense not really dioceses.

It is my perception ( I speak for no one but myself) that Rome
wants so badly to improve relations with the RO Church that
they do not wish to be seen giving support or encouragement
to us or to the desire of the Ukrainian Catholic Church for the
recognition of H.H. Lybomir as a Patriarch. I think this policy
is misguided, but am not about to rant and rave about it. We
are loyal to Rome. If Rome isn’t quite so loyal to us, it is their
and God’s business, not mine. Patience.

I’m not sure that the point that Vladyka John Botean is
eparch of the Romanian Catholic Church in America was made.

If Irish Melkite or anyone else is aware of an Old Believer
Russian-Catholic congregation in existance I would very much
like to hear about it. Rome’s madate to us allows us to
follow either the Nikonian or pre-Nikonian use. I know from
reading the history of our Church that we had Old Believer
adherents in Russia before the Revolution. It would be a wonderful
thing if we did again.

I appreciate the interest shown by the posters in our Church.
Come visit us if you get a chance. You will be welcome.

In Christ,

Edmac

 

[Ridgerunner]

It is my perception ( I speak for no one but myself) that Rome
wants so badly to improve relations with the RO Church that
they do not wish to be seen giving support or encouragement
to us or to the desire of the Ukrainian Catholic Church for the
recognition of H.H. Lybomir as a Patriarch. I think this policy
is misguided, but am not about to rant and rave about it. We
are loyal to Rome. If Rome isn’t quite so loyal to us, it is their
and God’s business, not mine. Patience.

I know from
reading the history of our Church that we had Old Believer
adherents in Russia before the Revolution. It would be a wonderful
thing if we did again.

I appreciate the interest shown by the posters in our Church.
Come visit us if you get a chance. You will be welcome.

In Christ,

Edmac

I thank both you and Irish Melkite for the information. This really is amazing! I do know that there were still Old Believers at least shortly after WWII, because Solzhenitzyn speaks of them in “Gulag Archipelago”. They were very secretive because, for some reason, the Bolsheviks hated them with a particularly fierce hatred. That was what was behind that one group hiding in the taiga. It would be wonderful to think that perhaps a Russian Catholic adhering settlement of Old Believers or more were still out there in the taiga somewhere. Then too, Stalin hurled a lot of them into the Gulags. But not everybody died in the Gulags, and out in the remote places of the former archipelago there are little groups of, e.g., Poles, Volgadeutsch, Balts, etc. that were exiled and never left their places of exile. I’m betting there are little groups of Old Believers in those places.

The Vatican diplomats do what they do, and one hopes their decisions are wise. Still, I see so little hope of reunion with the ROC, one could doubt. The other possibility is this: There can be little question that Russia is reverting to something like a KGB state, except that this time it seems to be allied to the ROC. Possibly the Pope perceives danger to Russian Catholics in Russia from that direction. As I said, both the ROC and the Putin government retaliated when the issue of a Latin bishop in Russia came up. How much more might they retaliate against a Russian Catholic Church? If Patriarch Alexei’s delegate walked out of the Ravenna conference because Constantinople allowed Greek Orthodox in Ukraine to attend, it tells you a lot.

 

[Alexius]

Which, of course, is what made them catholic.

Was it with filioque?

Very funny…

Are the Russian Catholics concentrated in any particular part of Russia?

As far as I’m aware, they are mostly spread around in the Western part of Russia between St. Petersburg (Leningrad for those of you who are unaware of the fall of the USSR) and Moscow…oh, and they are very few, of course.

 

[Edmac]

Very few is right. We’ve never been anything else.

But still, the Lord isn’t interested in head counts.

Praised, blessed and glorified be His name, now, and ever,
and unto the ages of ages.

Edmac

 

[fin]

What rite does the Russian Catholic Church use? Is it Byzantine?

Is the liturgy said in Russian?

 

[Edmac]

We are of the Byzanrtine-Slav obvservance. We celebrate
the DL according to the Russian Orthodox Synodal use.
We do not use the filioque. We use a mixture of English
and Slavonic, except that we have the Gospel in English
and modern Russian. No Russian Orthodoox or Russian
Caholic Church uses Russian in its Liturgy as far as I know.

Edmac

 

[Alexius]

We are of the Byzanrtine-Slav obvservance. We celebrate
the DL according to the Russian Orthodox Synodal use.
We do not use the filioque. We use a mixture of English
and Slavonic, except that we have the Gospel in English
and modern Russian. No Russian Orthodoox or Russian
Caholic Church uses Russian in its Liturgy as far as I know.

Edmac

Aren’t there one or two Latin rite parishes in Russia? I think someone mentioned them earlier (?)

If a Russian Orthodox parish entered Catholicism, would they be considered a Russian Catholic Church? I see that one is under the Eparchy of Newton (Melkite) and most are under Latin jurisdiction…Do they automatically become “Russian” Catholic, or are they pulled into the other churches. How do they determine which epachy a parish would enter? Does this make sense?

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Irish_Melkite]

If Irish Melkite or anyone else is aware of an Old Believer Russian-Catholic congregation in existance I would very much like to hear about it. Rome’s madate to us allows us to follow either the Nikonian or pre-Nikonian use. I know from reading the history of our Church that we had Old Believer
adherents in Russia before the Revolution. It would be a wonderful
thing if we did again.

Ed,

There is presently a single parish in Russia of Byzantine Catholics who serve according to the Old Ritualist usage. I don’t know whether they are of more recent vintage or are direct descendents of one of the two such communities that existed at the time of Blessed Leonid.

There was, briefly, a small community of Catholic Old Ritualists among the larger Old Ritualist (Orthodox) community in Oregon. Hieromonk Feodor (Palczynski), of blessed memory, whose family was of Old Ritualist origins, was assigned there in 1965 to serve them at the request of Abbott Damien, also of blessed memory. Brother Ambrose (Moorman) learned Church-Slavonic so as to be able to chant and assist at Liturgy. They established the Chapel of Our Lady of Tikhvin, as well as a center that served the entire Old Ritualist community (Catholic and Orthodox) in a variety of ways. After Father Feodor’s repose, the community eventually was reabsorbed into that of its Orthodox brethren when no Catholic presbyter was any longer available to them. Brother Ambrose is now of very advanced age.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Aren’t there one or two Latin rite parishes in Russia? I think someone mentioned them earlier (?)

There are 4 Latin Rite dioceses in Russia and an Apostolic Prefecture.

If a Russian Orthodox parish entered Catholicism, would they be considered a Russian Catholic Church?

The acceptance of an entire parish into union with Rome would not likely happen, as such “corporate unions” are generally discouraged by both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which see it as harmful to dialogue.

I see that one is under the Eparchy of Newton (Melkite) and most are under Latin jurisdiction…

St Andrew’s is not “under” the Eparchy. It is a parish canonically subject to the Latin Ordinary of LA. By request of the Latin Archbishop, it is under the spiritual omophor of the Melkite Eparch.

Do they automatically become “Russian” Catholic, or are they pulled into the other churches. How do they determine which epachy a parish would enter? Does this make sense?

Persons entering into union with the Catholic Church from an EO Church should be ascribed to the corresponding EC Church, but may request to be received otherwise, should they choose to do so.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Just as a side note, the Russian GC community in Australia is also spiritually served for episcopal purposes by the Melkite Eparchy there.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Irish_Melkite]

I do know that there were still Old Believers at least shortly after WWII, because Solzhenitzyn speaks of them in “Gulag Archipelago”. They were very secretive because, for some reason, the Bolsheviks hated them with a particularly fierce hatred. That was what was behind that one group hiding in the taiga. … I’m betting there are little groups of Old Believers in those places.

If you are speaking of Orthodox Old Believers, there are still significant numbers of those. There was a detailed thread regarding the various Old Ritualist communities and the myriad groups that existed parallel to them in the former EC forum. Perhaps it will, at some future time, reappear from the archives - or, I may pull the material out and repost it.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Alexius]

There are 4 Latin Rite dioceses in Russia and an Apostolic Prefecture.

The acceptance of an entire parish into union with Rome would not likely happen, as such “corporate unions” are generally discouraged by both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, which see it as harmful to dialogue.

St Andrew’s is not “under” the Eparchy. It is a parish canonically subject to the Latin Ordinary of LA. By request of the Latin Archbishop, it is under the spiritual omophor of the Melkite Eparch.

Persons entering into union with the Catholic Church from an EO Church should be ascribed to the corresponding EC Church, but may request to be received otherwise, should they choose to do so.

Many years,

Neil

OK, thank you for the clarification . I’m very close with someone who lives in Russia. Maybe I’ll ask her if she’s familiar with the Russian Catholic Churches…Thanks again!

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Edmac]

My thanks to Neil who has answered the questions asked
better than I could. He knows more about us than I do, me
being a relative newcomer (twelve years) to Russian
Catholicism. Being the only one of us (apparently) involved
in this or the ByzCath forum, I have had to take it upon
myself to talk about us, despite my limitations. I am very
glad to he is here to help.

He is the only person to date to speak of an Catholic Old Believer community in Russia. Do we know where they are and who
serves them?

Anyone interested may visit St. Michael’s website at
stmichaelruscath.org. The site needs to be updated
but is worth visiting. We will (before too long, I hope)
be changing to a new webhost and a new address.
I will advise when it happens.

O.L. of Fatima Russian Catholic church in San Francisco
also has a site: byzantinecatholic.org

Edmac

 

[Irish_Melkite]

me being a relative newcomer (twelve years) to Russian Catholicism. Being the only one of us (apparently) involved in this or the ByzCath forum, I have had to take it upon myself to talk about us, despite my limitations. I am very glad to he is here to help.

Ed,

Actually, my good friend, Deacon Randy Brown, who posts at ByzCath as Diak is very knowledgeable of the Russian GC Church and, I believe, considers himself to be Russian Catholic, altho he isn’t geographically near any of the parishes and serves a UGCC parish. Edward Yong, a young postgrad student living in Singapore, who posts under his own name at ByzCath, is also a Russian Greek-Catholic; Father Serge Keleher is also extremely knowledgeable of the Russian GCC.

He is the only person to date to speak of an Catholic Old Believer community in Russia. Do we know where they are and who serves them?

I don’t recollect the priest’s name or the precise locale in which they’re situated. But, there is info in an old post at ByzCath with some specifics. If I can locate it, I’ll PM a link to you there. If I can’t find it, I believe Deacon Randy knows the particulars.

Many years,

Neil

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

There is a Saints Cyril and Methodius Byzantine Catholic Church in the diocese of Spokane, Washington. Judging by the “Cyril and Methodius” name, would this possibly be a Russian Catholic Church? Or, would it be more accurate to say it is a Byzantine Catholic Church with a fair amount of Russian members? I noticed that the priest’s last name is O’Brien…

 

[Irish_Melkite]

There is a Saints Cyril and Methodius Byzantine Catholic Church in the diocese of Spokane, Washington. Judging by the “Cyril and Methodius” name, would this possibly be a Russian Catholic Church? Or, would it be more accurate to say it is a Byzantine Catholic Church with a fair amount of Russian members?

Iambic Pen,

Ss Cyril & Methodius is a parish of the Eparchy of Van Nuys of the Ruthenians. The Holy Brothers, Equal-to-the-Apostles, and Apostles to the Slavs, are highly honored in all the Byzantine Churches, particularly those of the Slav Tradition.

As noted above, there are only 4 extant Russian Greek-Catholic parishes/communities in the US - in NA, as a matter of fact.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Edmac]

Iambic:

You will find a remarkable number of Irish names among Eastern
Christians in this country.

I have Irish blood on both sides, myself.

Edmac