The Ruthenian Liturgy Revisions

  • Thread starter Thread starter dbacks5439
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

dbacks5439

Guest
[Moderator Note: The comment on the liturgy revisions generated enough off-topic posts to create this new thread from them. Please http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=200902”]see here for the original discussion.]
Edwin1961 said:
In the Eparchy of Parma, we have just received new Divine Liturgy books. This is the new translation of the Divine Liturgy that was ok’ed by Rome eariler this year. From what I gather, all Byzantine Catholic Churches will have the same books in our Eparchy. (I could be wrong, but that was my understanding as it was explained to me.)

But to answer your question, I believe if you wrote to the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, that they would let you know more about how to obtain a book.
Click to expand...
Edwin, I do recall there being new books ordered at my local Byzantine Church back in April. It is in Homer Glen, Illinois, so I’m guessing that is also under the jurisdiction of the Eparchy of Parma? The changes that were made were very minor. A word change here, a pitch change there. Is this correct?
 
dbacks5439 said:
Edwin, I do recall there being new books ordered at my local Byzantine Church back in April. It is in Homer Glen, Illinois, so I’m guessing that is also under the jurisdiction of the Eparchy of Parma? The changes that were made were very minor. A word change here, a pitch change there. Is this correct?
Click to expand...
I just did some research and found that my local Byzantine church is under the jurisdiction of Parma. Also, I found the reason for the changes in the Missal is in response to Vat. II to remove the Latinizations that are found in the DL’s of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great.
 
dbacks5439 said:
The changes that were made were very minor. A word change here, a pitch change there. Is this correct?
Click to expand...
Well, the music was TOTALLY re-written, all reference to gender was removed- “for us and our salvation, He came down from Heaven” replaces “for men and our salvation”, there are new translations for prayers - S’OM DUCHOM TVOJIM - “With your spirit” is now “To your spirit”; “Glory be to Father…” is now “Glory to the Father…” just to name a few…

Some people see these as minor, some do not…
 
Well, the music was TOTALLY re-written, all reference to gender was removed- “for us and our salvation, He came down from Heaven” replaces “for men and our salvation”,

"For us and for our salvation" is actually more accurate. Greek and Slavonic use the word for generic human being ANTHROPOS/CHELLOVEK and not the word for gender specific male. The same words is used in the phrase “and was made ___”. The Greek word is “enanthropoizanta”–was humanified or enhumaned. It’s a comparable word in Slavonic.
**
there are new translations for prayers - S’OM DUCHOM TVOJIM - “With your spirit” is now “To your spirit”;

The Greek and Slavonic both distinguish between “and to your spirit” (kai to pnevmati sou) and “and with your spirit” (kai meta tous pnevmatis sou). Why should not the English? Both phrases are used in the Liturgy. Though I will admit there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between the two phrases in English.
 
dbacks5439 said:
Edwin, I do recall there being new books ordered at my local Byzantine Church back in April. It is in Homer Glen, Illinois, so I’m guessing that is also under the jurisdiction of the Eparchy of Parma? The changes that were made were very minor. A word change here, a pitch change there. Is this correct?
Click to expand...
dbacks5439 said:
I just did some research and found that my local Byzantine church is under the jurisdiction of Parma. Also, I found the reason for the changes in the Missal is in response to Vat. II to remove the Latinizations that are found in the DL’s of St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great.
Click to expand...
You are correct that the words that are changed are to bring a more precise meaning to the Divine Liturgy. From my understanding, this will also be done to Vespers, Matins, and all the other servces of the Byzantine Catholic Church. Anything to restore our traditions and practices back to the original, I’m all for it!
 
Edwin1961 said:
You are correct that the words that are changed are to bring a more precise meaning to the Divine Liturgy. From my understanding, this will also be done to Vespers, Matins, and all the other servces of the Byzantine Catholic Church. Anything to restore our traditions and practices back to the original, I’m all for it!
Click to expand...
Well, the missed the boat with this BIG TIME!!!

When the head of the Slavic Languages Department at the University of Pittsburgh questions who did the translations from the Old Church Slavonic into English and then wants to know what kind medication they were taking at the time of the translation, that kinda speaks volumes to most of us:eek:
 
bpbasilphx said:
there are new translations for prayers - S’OM DUCHOM TVOJIM - “With your spirit” is now “To your spirit”;**

The Greek and Slavonic both distinguish between “and to your spirit” (kai to pnevmati sou) and “and with your spirit” (kai meta tous pnevmatis sou). Why should not the English? Both phrases are used in the Liturgy. Though I will admit there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between the two phrases in English.
Click to expand...
And Patchunky is mistaken.
“I so duchom Tvojim” (e.g., after “…so vsimi vami” (with all of you)) is translated: “And with your spirit”. The other use that has been distinguished is: “Mir vsim! I duchovi tvojemu”, which is translated Peace be to all! And to your spirit."
Well, the music was TOTALLY re-written…
Click to expand...
I think that must be “TOTALLY” in valley girl usage. 😃
 
Patchunky said:
Well, the missed the boat with this BIG TIME!!!

When the head of the Slavic Languages Department at the University of Pittsburgh questions who did the translations from the Old Church Slavonic into English and then wants to know what kind medication they were taking at the time of the translation, that kinda speaks volumes to most of us:eek:
Click to expand...
Well, this is the sort of thing that should be accompanied by some reference, ISTM. But a pertinent question is how did this head miss the widely discussed point that this translation, where possible, sought to reach back to the original Greek, rather than translating from Slavonic translations of the Greek. This decision has been applauded by some and criticized by others; and apparently others have missed out on it entirely.
 
To my Ruthenian brothers on both sides of the issue who would argue the propriety of the newly-translated Liturgy (and whose concerns, I understand), it would be worthwhile to pay attention to the topic of the thread. A visitor is among us - our fine points of disagreement are meaningless to him in all likelihood and his interest in the debate likely waned at about post #3. Let’s focus on answering his question and save the debate for another thread, in which it won’t get in the way of what our former Moderator used to remind us “sometimes, a question is just a question”.

We need to separate in our minds (and posts) informational queries versus probing issues - lest we scare away the merely curious by our need to inject our internal differences into every casual conversation.

Many years,

Neil
 
These posts were pulled out of a thread asking for a missal source. Posters are reminded to please abide by the Discussion Rules:
**
Messages posted to threads should be on-topic. If you wish to discuss another topic, start a new thread.

**If you notice a thread being pulled off-topic, please report it to me through a PM or the BPR feature. Thank you.
 
Well, the music was TOTALLY re-written, all reference to gender was removed- “for us and our salvation, He came down from Heaven” replaces “for men and our salvation”, there are new translations for prayers - S’OM DUCHOM TVOJIM - “With your spirit” is now “To your spirit”; “Glory be to Father…” is now “Glory to the Father…” just to name a few…

Your concerns on these issues have been dealt with elsewhere. Do you have any other points?

At this point, I think you’re just reacting unfavorably to change.
 
bpbasilphx said:
At this point, I think you’re just reacting unfavorably to change.
Click to expand...
Sometimes wholesale change/revision can scandalize many people. Change should be organic–not for the sake of change. It is not beneficial to judge someone because they have been scandalized by a reformation. You say that gender-neutral language is harmless and proper. I say it is terribly damaging, scandalous, and unnecessary.

But I do not judge you.
 
The biggest problem with the new liturgy is the cantors who can’t/won’t learn the melodies in the book.
 
Aramis said:
The biggest problem with the new liturgy is the cantors who can’t/won’t learn the melodies in the book.
Click to expand...
😛 Maybe they should have asked the cantors what melodies they’ve been using all along. If they put the church’s melodies in the book, the cantors would already know them.
 
Woodstock said:
😛 Maybe they should have asked the cantors what melodies they’ve been using all along. If they put the church’s melodies in the book, the cantors would already know them.
Click to expand...
Having read the book from which the cantors were supposedly trained (an early 1900’s slavonic prostopinie text), they were never (locally) singing what the rubrics called for…

“Fairly Similar” is the best I can say. That “fairly similar” is closer to what I heard in a Coptic Orthodox parish that what was in that old Slavonic edition or what is in the new; the new is close (but not exactly) what I recall from the old.

The problem is multifold:
  1. It was treated as an oral-only tradition
  2. Many didn’t realize their local prostopinie had drifted.
  3. When confronted with authentic sources, those sources were often rejected.
Now, when those sources are the basis…
 
The BIGGEST problem was bringing in a “wannabe” who doesn’t know ANYTHING about prostopinje and COMPLETELY and TOTALLY ignoring a prostopinje expert who has dedicated his life to researching and complining thousands of hours of traditional prostopinje melodies from European trained PhD cantors.
 
Having read the book from which the cantors were supposedly trained (an early 1900’s slavonic prostopinie text), they were never (locally) singing what the rubrics called for…

You’re not the first person I’ve heard this from about Ruthenian chant.

I’m sure there was as much moaning when Bp. Fircak ordered the volume TSERKOVNOJE PROSTOPINJE published.

Did the release of IRMOLOGION in 1970 cause such a reaction?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top