The Sabbath

[herry]

SDA2RC:

Herry,

Hope you dont mind if I jump in… When was the Sabbath given man, and who specifically was it given to? If we are going to discuss the Sabbath, by all means lets look at it from the very beginning of the Sabbath. Finally, if you don’t mind, please provide references scriptural or otherwise for anything you use as an answer or quote, that way we can all look them up. I would love to talk to you about this until one or both of us come to a better understanding of each other’s position.

Brandon

HI SDA2RC,

“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh dayGod ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made” Genesis 2:1-3

The Sabbath was given to all men at creation, just like marriage was given to all people. Jesus and the apostles called the various feast days the “feast of the Jews”, or"passover of the Jews", etc, But Jesus said “…the Sabbath was made for man…” Mark 2:27

When God gave the commandment at Sinai He said remember because it was not a new commandment. And, in Exodus 20:11, God tells us why He wants us to keep the Sabbath:

“…For in six days the Lord thy God made heaven, adn earth, adn teh sea, and all that is in them. And on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed: that is why the Lord thy God commands you to keep holy the Sabbath day” EX. 20:11 (from my Catholic Bible).

The universality, and continuity of the Sabbath for all people is what prompted the Apostels to keep it, and the Apostolic Church to keep it.

“The primitive Church did keep both the Sabbath, and the Lord’s day until the time of the Laodicean Council, about three hunred years after Christ’s nativity…and therefore did not esteem the lord’s day to be substituted in the place of the obliderated sabbath, but as a feast celebrated by reason, and perpetuity, without precept or divine injunction” Jeremy Taylor, D.D. “Whole Works”, Vol. II, page 431

Also, the Constitutions of the holy apostles commanded Sabbath keeping as a mermorial of creation:

“Thou shalt observe the Sabbbath on account of him that ceased from His works of creation, but not from His works of providence” Book II, chap. XXXVI

By this teaching of the Constitutions, and scripture we know that the apostolic Church at least for a time, did not consider Jesus’s controversial ministry of healing on the Sabbath, or declaring Himself Lord of it His way of abolishing or abrogating it, but rather retuning it to its original purpose. Jesus was also fulfilling a Jubilee year when the debts were to be cancelled, people healed, and good works performed (Luke 4:18-19, Isaiah 6:1-2, Leviticus:25:9-10).

Pax,

Herry

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:

Whoops, my bad, it was the Council of Florence, session 11:

“Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors”

Herry, unfortunately, you quote only what is convenient to you… and you ignore the context of the quote…

Lets look at more of the quote:

herry:

It firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. "

Do you disagree with this… that the legal prescriptions of the Old Testament or Mosaic Law were to signify something in the future? I do…

herry:

Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally."

Wow… so now we find the audience or subject of this paragraph… those who after Christ place their hope in legal prescriptions and rely on them for their salvation rather than Christ commit a sin… Herry, I believe in this too… don’t you?

herry:

It does not deny that from Christ’s passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation…"

Hmmm… the council does not deny that even after Christ until the Gospel, that the observations of the mosaic covenant could be kept… AS LONG AS THEY WERE NOT BELIEVED TO BE NECESSARY FOR SALVATION! I agree with this too Herry!! Do you agree differently? Can people keep the Mosaic or Jewish laws if they choose as long as they do not believe they are required for salvation, until they hear the Gospel of Christ?

herry:

But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation…"

Finally, the council states that those who continue in their Jewish practices and worship style after they have been taught the freeing Gospel of Christ are unable to share in the salvation… why? Why do you think that the church states that AFTER they have received the Gospel, if they continue to worship as Jews, not following the leaders of the Christian church, they would not share in Salvation? Any Idea’s Herry? Also, are you aware of the issue’s that the council was addressing? Thanks

Brandon

 

[herry]

"And I believe that their official position is that it is bad, but it is the individual’s decision and they should be supportive" …

In other words, is it okay for Seventh Day Adv. to have an abortion BUT not okay to observe Saturday as the Sabboth? Really

N one has shown me any documents, just hear say. Our postition is this.

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For He hat said, do not commit adultery, said also, do not kill. If thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the whole law” James 2:10-11

I do not know any adventist who woudn’t rather adopt that child that is not theirs than have someone get an abortion.

 

[herry]

SDA2RC:

Herry, unfortunately, you quote only what is convenient to you… and you ignore the context of the quote…

Lets look at more of the quote:

Do you disagree with this… that the legal prescriptions of the Old Testament or Mosaic Law were to signify something in the future? I do…

Wow… so now we find the audience or subject of this paragraph… those who after Christ place their hope in legal prescriptions and rely on them for their salvation rather than Christ commit a sin… Herry, I believe in this too… don’t you?

Hmmm… the council does not deny that even after Christ until the Gospel, that the observations of the mosaic covenant could be kept… AS LONG AS THEY WERE NOT BELIEVED TO BE NECESSARY FOR SALVATION! I agree with this too Herry!! Do you agree differently? Can people keep the Mosaic or Jewish laws if they choose as long as they do not believe they are required for salvation, until they hear the Gospel of Christ?

Finally, the council states that those who continue in their Jewish practices and worship style after they have been taught the freeing Gospel of Christ are unable to share in the salvation… why? Why do you think that the church states that AFTER they have received the Gospel, if they continue to worship as Jews, not following the leaders of the Christian church, they would not share in Salvation? Any Idea’s Herry? Also, are you aware of the issue’s that the council was addressing? Thanks

Brandon

Yes, I do understand what the Council was adressing. it made several important points, and one of its consclusions was that anyone who keeps tha Sabbath cannot participate in eternal salvation. The fact is, is that placing our hope in a commandment, or practice cannot save us, and the council says this. But, it is question of practice. It is like saying no one can be saved if they apply the commandments to thier lives. That is all we do. The commandments cannot save us, only Christ’s subsitutionary death for our sins can save us. Keeping the commandments requires mind over matter, and displays that we are truly giving all our love and obediance to Jesus, obeying His commandments as it says countless times in the New Testament.

The problem is that they build a strawman argument. They include several true things, and then include a few untrue things. They wrongfully include the 7th day Sabbath in the Mosaic law, even though it was given to all men at least a thousand years before Moses. Jesus, and the Apostels, and the early Church, and even the early Roman Church knew that the Sabbath was not ceremonial but moral.

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:

HI SDA2RC,

“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh dayGod ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made” Genesis 2:1-3

Interesting, I see no where in this scripture you quoted that mentions the Sabbath, nor it’s delivery to mankind as a precept required to be obeyed by all?.. Do you?

"The Sabbath was given to all men at creation,

Hmmm… I cannot find that in scripture, can you please show me where God gave man the Sabbath at creation? I have read and re-read Genesis and have not found it! I did find where God rested on one day, but did not find the idea of a recurring rest that must be observed by man anywhere in the creation story… in addition, I did not find any communication from God to man in Genesis instructing this… do you? I think your trying to insert things into scripture that are not there. Can you please show me any Sabbath observance by men between creation and the Exodus…

“just like marriage was given to all people. Jesus and the apostles called the various feast days the “feast of the Jews”, or"passover of the Jews”, etc, But Jesus said “…the Sabbath was made for man…” Mark 2:27,

Who were the feasts given to? the Sabbaths? The passover? Who did the Jews consider them given to?

"When God gave the commandment at Sinai He said remember because it was not a new commandment. And, in Exodus 20:11, God tells us why He wants us to keep the Sabbath:,

Herry, I dont mean to be picky… but again, your inserting into the scripture why you think that God said “Remember”… he could have just as easily meant that he wanted them to Remember this command into the future, not recall it from the past. Or, since the Sabbath was initially introduced in Exodus 16, he could have been referring back to the events in Exodus 16… both of these make more sense since scripture does not record that Man was given the Sabbath prior to that time. Of course you can claim it was, but your doing so without scriptural support… adding to scripture what is required for your doctrine. Let me give you an example… “Son, please remember to call me.” Remember is referring to a future action, not a past!

"The universality, and continuity of the Sabbath for all people is what prompted the Apostels to keep it, and the Apostolic Church to keep it.:,

Interesting… unversality? Can you tell me any other Old Testament groups the observed the Sabbath who were not Jewish? Also, your again making a statement about the Apostles that is not scripturally supported… but we can address that later…

""The primitive Church did keep both the Sabbath, and the Lord’s day until the time of the Laodicean Council, about three hunred years after Christ’s nativity…and therefore did not esteem the lord’s day to be substituted in the place of the obliderated sabbath, but as a feast celebrated by reason, and perpetuity, without precept or divine injunction

" Jeremy Taylor, D.D. “Whole Works”, Vol. II, page 431.:,

SDA’s need to make up their minds about this… Samuele Bacchiocci (an SDA Scholar) states that it happened about 135AD, EGW claimed it happened at two different times, now your saying another time… LOL I can easily quote scholars who will tell you it happened while the Apostles were alive… so… Where you going with that?

""Also, the Constitutions of the holy apostles commanded Sabbath keeping as a mermorial of creation:
“Thou shalt observe the Sabbbath on account of him that ceased from His works of creation, but not from His works of providence” Book II, chap. XXXVI.:,

Do you recognize the Constitutions as authoratative? If so, what other non-Biblical sources do you find authoratative regarding the Sabbath… this will help me immensly!

Do you realize that by the end of the First century that Sunday or the First day was often called the Sabbath by Christians?

""By this teaching of the Constitutions, and scripture we know that the apostolic Church at least for a time, did not consider Jesus’s controversial ministry of healing on the Sabbath, or declaring Himself Lord of it His way of abolishing or abrogating it, but rather retuning it to its original purpose. Jesus was also fulfilling a Jubilee year when the debts were to be cancelled, people healed, and good works performed (Luke 4:18-19, Isaiah 6:1-2, Leviticus:25:9-10). .:,

Wow… you made a ton of logical leaps and unfounded assertions in that paragraph… lets get through the above first… then we will talk about the Apostles and Christ… cool?

And Peace to you!!

Brandon

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:

Yes, I do understand what the Council was adressing. it made several important points, and one of its consclusions was that anyone who keeps tha Sabbath cannot participate in eternal salvation…

Why did it conclude this??

herry:

The fact is, is that placing our hope in a commandment, or practice cannot save us, and the council says this…

Now we are getting somewhere!!! The Sabbath reference in this passage is included with the other mosaic laws… why would Christians be saying that those who continue to keep the Mosaic laws are basically denying Christianity and therefore cannot be saved? Adventist’s teach the same thing, they just define the Mosaic laws differently… as to not include the Sabbath. But otherwise most SDA Scholars would agree that those who continue to practice the Jewish cerimonial laws etc. deny the very thing that abolished those laws… would they not?

herry:

But, it is question of practice. It is like saying no one can be saved if they apply the commandments to thier lives. …

No… it is saying that no one can be saved if they continue to act as one who has not received the Gospel after they have received the Gospel. Wouldnt SDA’s agree… if one refused to change their life and accept the Gospel after hearing it… can one be saved? Is that not the entire crux of the Conversion experience?

herry:

That is all we do. The commandments cannot save us, only Christ’s subsitutionary death for our sins can save us…

I agree… and I am glad you realize this… however, I will discuss this further later… as I am convinced that although SDA’s (mainstram) profess what you said above… their theology contradicts it… Anyway, tell me… if you do not believe we are saved by Sabbath Observance, then why are you wasting your time talking to us about it… rather than talking to us about the very things that will cost us our souls? Seems to me that our eternal salvation would be much more important than that which even you admitted cannot save us!

herry:

Keeping the commandments requires mind over matter, and displays that we are truly giving all our love and obediance to Jesus, obeying His commandments as it says countless times in the New Testament…

What commandments? Scripture lists 1000’s of commandments… 613 in the Mitzvah (sp) if I remember correctly. In your mind, how do we differentiate between the commandments that we must obey and the ones which we dont have to obey? I do not believe that keeping the Jewish Sabbath displays our committment to Jesus… I believe that being committed to Jesus displays our committment to Jesus. Anyone can “observe” the Sabbath and not be committed… so it displays nothing.

herry:

The problem is that they build a strawman argument. They include several true things, and then include a few untrue things. They wrongfully include the 7th day Sabbath in the Mosaic law, even though it was given to all men at least a thousand years before Moses. Jesus, and the Apostels, and the early Church, and even the early Roman Church knew that the Sabbath was not ceremonial but moral.

How do you know that they wrongfully include it? Are you infallible in your scriptural interpretation or do you recognize that you may be wrong at times? What happens if you interpret something different than the SDA Church?
(yes… there is a point to my questions… so please answer them… LOL)

Brandon

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:

N one has shown me any documents, just hear say. Our postition is this.

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For He hat said, do not commit adultery, said also, do not kill. If thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the whole law” James 2:10-11

I do not know any adventist who woudn’t rather adopt that child that is not theirs than have someone get an abortion.

“The Church does not serve as conscience for individuals; however, it should provide moral guidance. Abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned by the Church. Women, at times however, may face exceptional circumstances that present serious moral or medical dilemmas, such as significant threats to the pregnant woman’s life, serious jeopardy to her health, severe congenital defects carefully diagnosed in the fetus, and pregnancy resulting from rape or incest. **The final decision whether to terminate the pregnancy or not should be made by the pregnant woman after appropriate consultation. **She should be aided in her decision by accurate information, biblical principles, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, these decisions are best made within the context of healthy family relationships.”
adventist.org/beliefs/guidelines/main_guide1.html

This is published at the GC website… as an official “Guideline” of the SDA Church on abortion!! Basically… like this one paragraph from the guideline… the guideline states that although the Church does not condone Abortion… it must be left up to the pregnant woman. This is murder!

“It is our responsibility to study the Scriptures for ourselves, to ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to submit our understandings to those in the church who are able to judge our findings, and then to abide to the decisions of the church…”
(Seventh-day Adventist Church Adult Sabbath School Quarterly, Lesson 13, March 28, 1987, p 92, or p 153 in the Teacher’s Edition).

Well… there you go… you have your marching orders from the SDA church… j/k

Brandon

 

[SDA2RC]

Herry,

“Therefore, any attempts to coerce women either to remain pregnant or to terminate pregnancy should be rejected as infringements of personal freedom.”
adventist.org/beliefs/guidelines/main_guide1.html

Does it bother you that you belong to a church that stresses keeping the Sabbath, but feels it is best to leave the choice to the mother about whether or not she should murder her baby? Do agree with your church about this? Do you think it is an infringement of personal freedom to try to coerce a woman from killing her child? I think the abortion issue is much larger than the Sabbath issue… what is your feeling about this?

Peace in Christ!
Brandon

 

[ComradeAndrei]

If its not in the Bible then its not the official postition of the SDA Church.

Then you believe in the Papacy, Apostolic Succession, the Real Presence, etc., right?

Well, that doesn’t seem to be the position of your SDA friends-

adventist.org.au/about_adventists/perspectives_on_social_issues/abortion

Adventists do not condone abortions for birth control, gender selection or convenience. And we do not believe those with a religious or ethical objection to abortions should have to participate in them.

But when a woman faces exceptional circumstances of serious moral or medical dilemmas, she has the final decision whether to terminate the pregnancy or not. Attitudes of condemnation are inappropriate.

(the bold is my doing)

atoday.com/magazine/archive/1993/mayjun1993/articles/AbortionIntro.shtml

Really, I couldn’t find much that was definitive on abortion. Seems like the SDA church just doesn’t want to talk about it.

 

[shannin]

***Herry, Herry, Herry, ****Now let me get this straight: the SDAs believe that a woman does indeed have a “RIGHT” kill her baby and yet they have the NERVE to criticize Catholics for not observing the sabbath *

*When in fact devout Catholics worship the Lord every day of the week by going to daily Mass, praying during Holy Hours each day at 12:00 P.M. and 3:00 P.M., going to confession and the other sacraments. *
**
*The only thing I see the SDAs do is sing a little bit and condemn Catholics in a very hateful way *

The SDAs used to say (on 3ABN) that the Pope’s name numerically adds up to 666 UNTIL someone pointed out to them that their founder’s (Ms. Ellen White) was the one who’s name added up to 666 in Roman Numerals. **

 

[shannin]

How right you are. All they want to talk about is the sabbath but when the subject of murdering helpless unborn babies comes up they disappear

 

[herry]

“The Church does not serve as conscience for individuals; however, it should provide moral guidance. Abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned by the Church. Women, at times however, may face exceptional circumstances that present serious moral or medical dilemmas, such as significant threats to the pregnant woman’s life, serious jeopardy to her health, severe congenital defects carefully diagnosed in the fetus, and pregnancy resulting from rape or incest. **The final decision whether to terminate the pregnancy or not should be made by the pregnant woman after appropriate consultation. **She should be aided in her decision by accurate information, biblical principles, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, these decisions are best made within the context of healthy family relationships.”
adventist.org/beliefs/guidelines/main_guide1.html

This is published at the GC website… as an official “Guideline” of the SDA Church on abortion!! Basically… like this one paragraph from the guideline… the guideline states that although the Church does not condone Abortion… it must be left up to the pregnant woman. This is murder!

“It is our responsibility to study the Scriptures for ourselves, to ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to submit our understandings to those in the church who are able to judge our findings, and then to abide to the decisions of the church…”
(Seventh-day Adventist Church Adult Sabbath School Quarterly, Lesson 13, March 28, 1987, p 92, or p 153 in the Teacher’s Edition).

Well… there you go… you have your marching orders from the SDA church… j/k

Brandon

Thank you Brandon. Then I disagree with what the GC has said about abortion in that document. Maybe someday I will change the Church’s teaching on that. But, personally, my Church would never condone an abortion. It is not a matter of personal preference. I once saw a list of names of famous evangelists and leaders who were illigitimate Children that may have been killed by an abortion.

If the Church were wrong, local congregations would just continue independant of the GC. They do not follow thier leaders even when they are wrong. Those who keep the Word of Christ’s Gospel will find salvation regardless of lists of names or church names, geneologies, etc. And we know this.

If you all want to talk about abortion in Churches, we can start another thread. The Seventh day Adventists are only a small fraction of the Sabbath keeping Churches of the world, and History. Keeping the Sabbath does not make you and adventist, it makes you a commandment keeper.

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:

If you all want to talk about abortion in Churches, we can start another thread. .

Fair enough… lets stick to the Sabbath… but I do hope that you carefully consider the beliefs and leadership priorities of where you fellowship. I appreciate that your strongly anti-abortion… and I hope that it is an area where the SDA church will realize the importance and become a champion.

Peace
Brandon

 

[adrift]

herry,

You seem to have ignored both my post #3 and more importantly post #22.

You are misrepresenting what was said in the councils. It doesn’t quite say what your editing indicates.

Please read these post carefully and respond to them.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

If you all want to talk about abortion in Churches, we can start another thread. The Seventh day Adventists are only a small fraction of the Sabbath keeping Churches of the world, and History. Keeping the Sabbath does not make you and adventist, it makes you a commandment keeper.

Who, like the Nestorians? Praytell who has “kept the sabbath” down through the centuries…

Also, if there are all these “commandment keepers” out there, why aren’t you one Church instead of a seperate communities?

If the Church were wrong, local congregations would just continue independant of the GC.They do not follow thier leaders even when they are wrong. Those who keep the Word of Christ’s Gospel will find salvation regardless of lists of names or church names, geneologies, etc. And we know this.

I assume “GC” means “General Council”. Other than that, how would you know they are wrong and you are right? It would seem that they would have followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit in their reading of Scripture too. So, what authority do you have to say your independent group would be right and the others wrong? All you have is personal interpretation, which seems like everyone would have equal powers thereof.

 

[herry]

adrift:

You changed horses in midstream. If it was the next day, it wouldn’t be Sunday morning but either Sunday night, because that would be the begining of the next day, or more likely Monday morining. However, this passage does not prove that it was Saturday night. It could have been Sunday afternoon and that it went until midnight of Sunday.

Nope. There are only two logical consclusions from this. 1) They were gather Saturday night (which would be Sunday to them and thus they wouold call it evening of the first day of the week. Or 2) they were gathered Sunday evening, which would be monday to them.

Most true is the former. “And upon the first day of the week, when the Apostles came together to break break, Paul preached unto them, and continued His speech until midnight” Acts 20:7

First day of the week, and it was at night, so, saturday night. A young man fell asleep in the window, so why would this happen at daytime? Also, there were many lights in the room they were in, why would they be wasting thier oil at daytime? The verse mentions the first day of the week at night time, so it must have been saturday night.

 

[shannin]

herry:

If the Church were wrong, local congregations would just continue independant of the GC. They do not follow thier leaders even when they are wrong.
Well, Herry, Jesus never intended for His people to be independent followers. He left a Church - the Catholic Church - with Peter in charge of His Church - Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit upon His Church.
*Herry, there is only ONE truth. If everyone went off on their own, independently, like you say, a lot of people would be wrong because THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH. *
Jesus would never have left all this confusion and different Protestant denominations - He left one holy and Apostolic Church - the Catholic Church - and He said the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.

If you all want to talk about abortion in Churches, we can start another thread. The Seventh day Adventists are only a small fraction of the Sabbath keeping Churches of the world, and History. Keeping the Sabbath does not make you and adventist, it makes you a commandment keeper
Herry, If I were you I’d be seriously concerned that I am associated with a Church that made a public statement that it’s a woman’s choice whether or not she murders her unborn child. That’s MURDER

 

[herry]

SDA2RC:

Herry, unfortunately, you quote only what is convenient to you… and you ignore the context of the quote…

Lets look at more of the quote:

Do you disagree with this… that the legal prescriptions of the Old Testament or Mosaic Law were to signify something in the future? I do…

Wow… so now we find the audience or subject of this paragraph… those who after Christ place their hope in legal prescriptions and rely on them for their salvation rather than Christ commit a sin… Herry, I believe in this too… don’t you?

Hmmm… the council does not deny that even after Christ until the Gospel, that the observations of the mosaic covenant could be kept… AS LONG AS THEY WERE NOT BELIEVED TO BE NECESSARY FOR SALVATION! I agree with this too Herry!! Do you agree differently? Can people keep the Mosaic or Jewish laws if they choose as long as they do not believe they are required for salvation, until they hear the Gospel of Christ?

Finally, the council states that those who continue in their Jewish practices and worship style after they have been taught the freeing Gospel of Christ are unable to share in the salvation… why? Why do you think that the church states that AFTER they have received the Gospel, if they continue to worship as Jews, not following the leaders of the Christian church, they would not share in Salvation? Any Idea’s Herry? Also, are you aware of the issue’s that the council was addressing? Thanks

Brandon

Brandon,

The point which I wish to make is that the Sabbath is not exclusivly Jewish. Circumscision was, and it was not included in God law. This Council includes the Sabbath in the Jewish perscriptions of the Law. This council was used by an individual to tell me that I will not be saved if I keep the Sabbath.

To rest and worship on the Sabbath is not Jewish. It is Christian. Circumscision is Jewish, to make sacrifices is Jewish, to enforce the observance of the passover, or day of atonement is Jewish, but the Council includes the Sabbath in the ceremonial portion of the law. This council makes several crucial points. They may have even been some truth in it. But does it not say that no one can keep the Sabbath without eternal loss of salvation? Did Jesus take away our rest day? Should I keep a day made by human tradition in its places? God forbid.

“For He spoke in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the Seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, if they shall enter into my rest” Hebrews 4:4-5

God created man on the sixth day, and He redeemed man on the sixth day. And He rested the seventh day after both. “In this place again, if they shall enter into my rest”. The day is made holy by resting. “For He that is entered into His rest hath also ceased from his works, as God did from His” Heb.4:10

“Again He limits a certain day, saying in David, today, after so long a time; as it was said, today, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest to the people of God” Hebrews 4:7-9

When God lead the Israelites into the promised land by the hand of Joshua, did Joshua say “okay we now reached our rest, you don’t have to keep the sabbath anymore”? No. It became a mermorail not only of creation but also sanctification. When Jesus led us into the true promised land, neither did He abolish the day, but made it a sign of sanctification.

“There remains therefore a rest to the people of God” Hebrews 4:9

The word used here in the greek is “sabbatismos” means '“Sabbath rest” or “a keeping of the Sabbath”.

According to Bacchiochi, the writer of Hebrews was writing to Hebrews Chrisitans who were being told by Jews that the Sabbath blessings did not apply to them. So the writer showed how Christ made the the Sabbath a sign of sanctification and rest in Christ. Also, the writer was not in a polemic argument defending the Sabbath, therefore it was and “exhortation to experience its blessing which…remains for the people of God” p. 65 (this book has Imprimitur, by the way.)

Now, if the Council merely said that those who are circumscised and place thier faith in it, along with other truly jewish laws, I would agree that that would seriously hamper that persons ability to understand salvation in Christ. The Council explicitly says Sabbath keepers, includung them along with Judaizers cannot be saved. Maybe I am reading it wrong, but I don’t think so. The Catechism says in the decalogue section “those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope. No longer observing the Sabbath, but rather the Lord’s day…”. Well, Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, man is of the lords day.

Pax,

Herry

 

[shannin]

I need help in answering Herry’s questions.

 

[vern_humphrey]

herry:

Brandon,

The point which I wish to make is that the Sabbath is not exclusivly Jewish.

Sabbath on Saturday is – Muslims keep Friday, Christisns Sunday. And have done so since the very early Church. Justin’s First Apology (ca 150 AD) clearly states that the weekly Christian services are on Sunday

herry:

Circumscision was, and it was not included in God law.

No it wasn’t and yes it was. Non-Jewish Semitics practiced circumcision – Muslims still do. And as any observant Jew will tell you, there are over 600 commandments – and circumcision is one of them.

herry:

This Council includes the Sabbath in the Jewish perscriptions of the Law. This council was used by an individual to tell me that I will not be saved if I keep the Sabbath.

A council is not an “individual.” It is a collective exercise of the Magisterium.

herry:

To rest and worship on the Sabbath is not Jewish.

Yes, it is. In fact, there was a whole web of laws about resting on the Sabbath.

herry:

The Catechism says in the decalogue section “those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope. No longer observing the Sabbath, but rather the Lord’s day…”. Well, Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, man is of the lords day.

Pax,

Herry

Did not Jesus himself say, “Man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for Man?”