The Sabbath

[SDA2RC]

herry:

The point which I wish to make is that the Sabbath is not exclusivly Jewish.

Herry,
Good morning… You have made the point but you have failed to support it. Your claim is that the Sabbath is not exclusively Jewish… I would ask then, what other people group did God verbally pronounce the Sabbath command to? To my knowledge there were only Jews there! Furthermore, no Christian in the NT after the resurrection of Christ was ever commanded or instructed to observe the Sabbath. So… from SCRIPTURE… we have… No Sabbath reference before it was given to the Jews and no Sabbath command after the Christian church was established on the day of Pentecost and no evidence it was given to anyone but the Jews.

You claimed that the Sabbath was implemented at creation, but you still have not provided a verse that even mentions the Sabbath before Exodus. It appears yours is the position so far that is non-Biblical.

In addition, you have not dealt with the Jewish understanding that the Sabbath was only given to them. In fact, Jews NEVER expected Gentiles to keep the Sabbath. Notice the following passages from Adventist and Jewish sources:``The children of Noah…were given seven Laws only, the observance of the Sabbath not being among them’’ (Midrash Deuteronomy Rabbah 1:21 [Soncino ed., p. 23], as quoted in C. Mervyn Maxwell and P. Gerard Damsteegt, eds., Source Book for the History of Sabbath and Sunday [Berrien Springs, Mich.: Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary, 1992], p. 75).

The Noachian laws are also listed in Midrash Genesis Rabbah 16:6 (Soncino ed., p. 131), Sanhedrin 56 a, b; and Midrash Song of Songs Rabbah 1:2(5) (Soncino ed. pp. 26-7) (ibid., p. 74). Gentiles could be considered righteous if they observed these laws, which did not include the Sabbath. Nor did they include restrictions about pork. Rabbi Judah could say that there was a time for the ``sons of Jacob when unclean beasts were still permitted to them’’ (Hullin 7:6, as quoted in Maxwell and Damsteegt, p. 74

The rabbis did not think that the Sabbath had been given to Gentiles: ``Why does it say, `The Lord hath given you’’ (Ex. 16:29)? To you hath he given it [the Sabbath], but not to the heathen. It is in virtue of this that the Sages stated Sanh. 56b] that if some of the heathen observed the Sabbath, then not only do they not receive any reward [but they are even considered to be transgressing]’’ (Midrash Exodus Rabbah 25:11 [Soncino ed., p. 314], as quoted in Maxwell and Damsteegt, p. 74).

``A non-Jew who observes the Sabbath whilst he is uncircumcised incurs liability for the punishment of death. Why? Because non-Jews were not commanded concerning it… The Sabbath is a reunion between Israel and God, as it is said, `It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel’ (Ex. 31:17); therefore any non-Jew who, being uncircumcised, thrusts himself between them incurs the penalty of death… **The Gentiles have not been commanded to observe the Sabbath’’ **(Midrash Deuteronomy Rabbah 1:21 [Soncino ed., pp. 23-4], as quoted in Maxwell and Damsteegt, p. 75).

Further evidence of the antiquity of this rabbinic understanding comes from the second-century B.C. book of Jubilees: **The Creator of all blessed it, but he did not sanctify any people or nations to keep the Sabbath thereon with the sole exception of Israel. **He granted to them alone that they might eat and drink and keep the Sabbath thereon upon the earth’’ (Jubilees 2:31, James Charlesworth, ed., The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, [New York: Doubleday, 1985], vol. 2, p. 58).

In Summary:
*You have failed to show that the Sabbath was instituted from scripture prior to the Exodus and hence given to the Jews.
*You have failed to explain why the Jews themselves believe the Sabbath was given only to them. *
*You have failed to explain why no one in first 2000 years or so of scripture was commanded to keep the Sabbath.
*You have failed to explain why the first words of the ten commandments were "'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me. " Who did God bring out of Egypt? Gentiles? Nope… Jews!!!

• You have failed to explain why we should believe that the Sabbath was instituted before the Exodus when scripture its self says: Deut 5:2-3 “The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today.”

• to be continued -

Peace,
Brandon

 

[CatholicChef]

adrift:

From Mark 2:27-28

That should say it all and was exactly what came to my mind (just couldn’t remember which verse Thanks Adrift!

 

[SDA2RC]

FIRST… I apologize… that this is going to be somewhat long winded… there was a lot ot cover in Herry’s post and I still did not include all I would have liked to… Sorry…

herry:

Circumscision was, and it was not included in God law. .

What?? It was certainly in the Law given by God to the Jews… you can find it in (Lev 12:3 NASB) ‘And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.’ In fact, the Jews believe there are 613 commands in the Law, they are called the Mitzvah, if you follow this link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot you fill find that circumcision and the 7th day Sabbath listed right next to each other… #86 and #87 respectively. So this artificial division of the Law you are trying to throw upon us is neither supported by Jews, the Christian Church as a whole, nor scripture! Sorry! Again, your assumption is un-Biblical.

herry:

This Council includes the Sabbath in the Jewish perscriptions of the Law. This council was used by an individual to tell me that I will not be saved if I keep the Sabbath.

Herry… You still have not answered why the council came the to conclusion it did?

herry:

To rest and worship on the Sabbath is not Jewish. It is Christian. .

This is a nice opinion, however, the leaders of the Christian church throughout history have said otherwise, and scripture no-where commands a Christian to observe the Sabbath. In fact when given the opportunity to do so, the Apostles and Holy Spirit specifically chose not to command Sabbath observance! (Acts 15:28 NASB) “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
(Acts 15:29 NASB) that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.” Notice: there is no mention of the Sabbath!! So unless you place yourself above the God ordained leadership of the Christian church and scripture, then I will go with them!

herry:

Circumscision is Jewish, to make sacrifices is Jewish, to enforce the observance of the passover, or day of atonement is Jewish, but the Council includes the Sabbath in the ceremonial portion of the law. .

No… the council includes the Sabbath in THE LAW… the division of the Law into different parts that you can pick and choose from is not Jewish and not Christian… it is outside of the pale of orthodoxy. SDA’s have made an arbitrary division where not exists, in order to support their cafeteria style approach to the Law.

herry:

… Did Jesus take away our rest day? Should I keep a day made by human tradition in its places? God forbid…

Who said it was made by human tradition, to make this bold assertion you would have to do two things… first, prove that the Sabbath was given to everyone, which so far you have failed to do, and secondly, prove that Christ did not endow the church with the authority of leadership and binding and loosing, which again, you have not done. To make a statement that the Lords say is Human Tradition without doing either of those things, is both presumptuous and shows large weakness in your argument. My scriptures record that the most awesome event in history occurred on the first day of the week. The Apostles refer to it as the “Lords Day” in Revelation, history shows that the church, who derives her Authority from God, was keeping the first day of the week as the Sabbath in the first century while the Apostles were alive! No… the only manmade tradition here is the SDA tradition of observing a Jewish holy day as a Christian commandment.

Continued -

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:

… “For He spoke in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest theeventh day from all his works. …There remains therefore a rest to the people of God” Hebrews 4:7-9

Herry, even most SDA’s do not try to force the Jewish Sabbath into this text… Lets go through it verse by verse and see if what your saying it means is accurate when taken as a whole:

4:1 Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.

So… the write of Hebrews says that there is a PROMISE OF ENTERING HIS REST… does that sound the same as a command to rest of the 7th day? No… the writer of Hebrews is talking about a promised spiritual rest, not a commanded temporal rest. As I have said before, to my knowledge even most SDA’s agree that this is what Heb. 4 is about… but if you need I can lookup some references??

2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Notice the first several words in verse 3… for we who have believed enter that rest… we enter it BECAUSE we believe… it does not say, we who believe keep the 7th Day Sabbath.

4 For He has thus said somewhere concerning the seventh day, “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”;
5 and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.”
6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

Just as God rested from His works on the 7th day of Creation, so too Christians may rest from the works of the law for salvation when they accept the Gospel of Christ, some however, had the Gospel preached to them and still continued in their reliance upon the works of the law to gain salvation, they still have not rested from their works.

7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

Herry, this is for both you and I… Today when we hear the Christ has freed us from the works of the Law and proclaimed a new covenant, TODAY we should open our hearts

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.
9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

See… as an Adventist I used to tell people that there was a difference between the laws of the Jews because the ceremonial laws pointed forward to Christ but the “Moral law” did not point forward to anything. I learned however, largely due to this passage, that I was wrong. The “Moral law” does indeed point forward to the indwelling of the Spirit who writes the precepts of the spirit of love on our hearts, not 10 commands… and the Sabbath was a temporal rest that pointed forward to the true Sabbath Rest we find in Christ when we cease from our works to earn salvation. Verse 8 offers us hope that we can finally achieve the true rest in Christ, that which the Temporal 7th day Sabbath rest symbolized!

10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience.

This passage clarifies what I just said above… that “the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works” not just one day… but forever, not just on Saturdays but throughout eternity they we rest from the works of the Jewish Law!

herry:

… When God lead the Israelites into the promised land by the hand of Joshua, did Joshua say “okay we now reached our rest, you don’t have to keep the sabbath anymore”? No. It became a mermorail not only of creation but also sanctification. When Jesus led us into the true promised land, neither did He abolish the day, but made it a sign of sanctification.

Herry, Joshua could not release them from their legal obligation to follow the Law, and hence the Sabbath, this fulfillment of the rest could only be found in Christ! That is the point of the passage, ie. that Christ did just that, he released us from our works, our attempts at earning salvation, and the Jewish law and replace it with the Sacraments of Grace and the Law of love!! What Joshua could not do, Christ did!!

Continued -

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:

… “There remains therefore a rest to the people of God” Hebrews 4:9
The word used here in the greek is “sabbatismos” means '“Sabbath rest” or “a keeping of the Sabbath”. According to Bacchiochi, the writer of Hebrews was writing to Hebrews Chrisitans who were being told by Jews that the Sabbath blessings did not apply to them. So the writer showed how Christ made the the Sabbath a sign of sanctification and rest in Christ. Also, the writer was not in a polemic argument defending the Sabbath, therefore it was and “exhortation to experience its blessing which…remains for the people of God” p. 65 (this book has Imprimitur, by the way.).

Well… Bacchiochi’s opinion about why it was written is not shared by most scholars… the real point of this passage is to show the supremecy of Christ to their Laws… not to bolster the SDA Sabbath claims… This is easy to see if we just do a simple paraphrase: " God promised a rest, but the first Israelites did not enter it because of unbelief and disobedience. Joshua brought them into the land, but the Israelites were still being exhorted to enter the promised rest. It was still future. Therefore, since there is still a promise of rest, we must be careful that we do not fall short of it. We who have faith in Christ enter the promised rest, which is called God’s rest. "

The fact is that Hebrews 4:9 contains NO COMMAND to keep the seventh-day sabbath, in fact the only command contained is for us not to fall short of the true rest.

But you are right about the word “sabbatismos”, "It clearly refers to the weekly Sabbath, but it is being used figuratively. The author is telling us that this spiritual rest is what the weekly Sabbath had pictured all along. The Sabbath was not only a reminder of the end-of-creation rest and the Exodus, it also looked forward, prefiguring something, as a predictive shadow of a coming reality, our spiritual rest. We enter God’s rest by faith in Christ (verse 3), and by doing so, we enter the rest that God entered when he completed his creation (verse 3b-4).
Our salvation rest is a Sabbath-rest, a fulfillment of the spiritual meaning of the Sabbath. If the author wanted to talk about the Sabbath day, he could have used the word for Sabbath. If he wanted to talk about keeping a law, he could have said that, too. But he did not use those words because he is not talking about the Sabbath day itself.

He is not saying whether it is necessary or unnecessary — he is not dealing with that issue. Rather, he is saying that the spiritual promise is a Sabbath-rest. Salvation is pictured by the Sabbath. Whether the Sabbath should continue to be kept as a weekly picture is not being discussed. The author is referring to salvation, the spiritual promised rest. He speaks of only one predicted Sabbath-rest, not a weekly picture of it. He is speaking figuratively of the kingdom of God. We enter our spiritual rest by faith in Christ."

herry:

… Well, Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, man is of the lords day.

.

God is the Lord of the Jewish Sabbath, and he is a Lord of the Christian Lord’s Day… Let me ask you something… what if your wrong? just… what if? I mean so far… to recap you have basically failed completely so far to show that Christ commanded or expected Christians to keep the Sabbath, you have failed to show that the Sabbath was given to anyone except the Jews, you have not proven that there are two different laws, you have not dealt with the understanding of the Jews in regards to who the Sabbath was given to, nor that of the Early Christian Church, nor how circumcision is related to the Sabbath Observance. Finally, you still have not shown that the Church does not have Authority to recommend the observance of the Lords Day. To top it off… I still have not even got to go on the offensive yet. j/k

I hope your having a great day.

Peace,
Brandon

 

[herry]

SDA2RC:

Herry,
Good morning… You have made the point but you have failed to support it. Your claim is that the Sabbath is not exclusively Jewish… I would ask then, what other people group did God verbally pronounce the Sabbath command to? To my knowledge there were only Jews there! Furthermore, no Christian in the NT after the resurrection of Christ was ever commanded or instructed to observe the Sabbath. So… from SCRIPTURE… we have… No Sabbath reference before it was given to the Jews and no Sabbath command after the Christian church was established on the day of Pentecost and no evidence it was given to anyone but the Jews.

You claimed that the Sabbath was implemented at creation, but you still have not provided a verse that even mentions the Sabbath before Exodus. It appears yours is the position so far that is non-Biblical.

In addition, you have not dealt with the Jewish understanding that the Sabbath was only given to them. In fact, Jews NEVER expected Gentiles to keep the Sabbath. Notice the following passages from Adventist and Jewish sources:``The children of Noah…were given seven Laws only, the observance of the Sabbath not being among them’’

In Summary:
*You have failed to show that the Sabbath was instituted from scripture prior to the Exodus and hence given to the Jews.
*You have failed to explain why the Jews themselves believe the Sabbath was given only to them. *
*You have failed to explain why no one in first 2000 years or so of scripture was commanded to keep the Sabbath.
*You have failed to explain why the first words of the ten commandments were "'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me. " Who did God bring out of Egypt? Gentiles? Nope… Jews!!!

• You have failed to explain why we should believe that the Sabbath was instituted before the Exodus when scripture its self says: Deut 5:2-3 “The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today.”

• to be continued -

Peace,
Brandon

Brandon,

The first mention of the Sabbath is on the seventh day of the History of this planet. Jesus said “…the Sabbath was made for man…” (Mark 2:27). He did not say the Sabbath was made for the Jews. The passover is called “the passover of the jews”, the other feast days are called “the feast of the jews”, but the sabbath is called, “the sabbath”. “And thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it He had rested from all His work which God had created and made” Genesis 2:1-3. Was not Jesus, in Mark 2:27 referencing these, His own words when He made the Sabbath? Yes, Adam and Eve constituted the entire human race when the Sabbath was made. no less than 1000 years before there was a Jew.

I do not care what the Jews say about the Sabbath. They also say that Jesus is not the Christ. Anyone who says that I will not listen to (1 John 2:22).

Someone said that Sunday is the Day of rest/ worship for Christians, but there is no place in scripture where it says that. As to the question of whether or not the New Testament commands Sunday or Sabbath keeping, I will let a prince of the Catholic Church tell you what it says: “You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify” Cardinal Gibbons 'Faith of our Fathers p. 111.

“I have read the Bible from the first verse of Genesis to the last verse of Revelation, and have found no reference to the duty of sanctifying Sunday. The day mentioned in the Bible is not Sunday, the first day of the week, but Saturday, the last day of the week” --Faith of millions, John O’Brien (Imprimitur, with preface and Introduction by the Archbishops of Boston, and Philidelphia), p. 154

Jesus said “think not that I am come to destroy the law, I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of the least of these commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” Matt. 5:17, 18

continued…

 

[herry]

“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass than for one tittle of the law to fail” Luke 16:17

“The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness sake: He will magnify the law, and make it honorable” Isaiah 42:21

The Gospels were written some 30 years after the ressurection. the writers had plenty of time to inform us that they were keeping Sudnay instead of the Sabbath, but they don’t. But, there is conclusive evidence that Jesus and his apostles kept the Sabbath.

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Fathers commandments, and abide in his love” John 15:10

“And He (Jesus) came to Nazareth where he had been brought up: and AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read” Luke 4:16

The Apostles also kept the Sabbath, and whether they were preaching to Jews or Gentiles, they did it on the Sabbath day:

“And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that the Word might be preached to them next Sabbath…And the next Sabbath day, came almost the whole city together to hear the Word of God” Acts 13:42, 44

This book of Acts was written at least 30 years by Luke after the passion of Christ, that is plenty of time to tell us that they were keeping Sunday instead. Read Acts 13:42, and tell me with a strait face that the gentiles had a tendancy to gather on sunday.

Finally, we have evidence that John kept the Sabbath day holy and tells us explicitly.

“I John, who am also your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called patmos, for the Word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as a trumpet” Revelation 1:9-10

John was there for the Testimony of Jesus Christ. “The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy…” Revelation 19:10. “The spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets, for God is not the author of confusion…” 1 Corinthians 14:32, 33. The Holy Spirit, through the prophet Isaiah, God calls the Sabbath “My Holy Day” Isaiah 58:13-14. If God said through Isaiah that the Sabbath is His Holy day, and then said through John that sunday is His holy day, how could He justly say He is not the author of confusion? Or how could God Justly say that He never changes?(Eccl. 3:14) Or how could He justly say that His (10) commandments endure for ever (Psalm 111:7, 8)? How could He say He would never alter what goes out of His mouth (Psalm 89:34)? Finally, how could He justly say that even in the new heavens, and new earth, even after the law may have passed away, the Seventh day Sabbath with still endure (Isaiah 66:22-23)?

God had foreknowledge that someone would try to change His law (Daniel 7:25), and there is historically, and doctrinally only one institution that claims to have the power to change God’s law, and has implimented it.

They say: “The Church received the authority to make such a change from Jesus Christ, her founder…It is to be noted that the Church did not change the divine law obliging men to worship, but merely to change the day on which public worship was to be offered” Faith of millions, p. 473

Peace and love in Christ,

-Herrry

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:
The first mention of the Sabbath is on the seventh day of the History of this planet.

Actually there is not mention of the Sabbath anywhere in the book of Genesis… if there is please provide me with the text that mentions a Sabbath, a command to observe the Sabbath, or a recurring weekly observance of any day of the week. You will not find this until Exodus 16… plain and simple. You are not being honest with your above statement, since there is no mention of the Sabbath in the creation story.

herry:

“…the Sabbath was made for man…”

He did not say the Sabbath was made for the Jews.

Herry, are you saying that because Christ said the Sabbath was made for man… it was a literal term meaning all men?? If that is your claim then following that to it’s logical conclusion… apparently, it was not made for women? Do SDA’s still require their women to observe the Jewish Sabbath too? I think you know that the term man is relative to the audience…

Christ was the Son of Man… does this mean his mission wasn’t to the Jews or that his mother wasn’t Jewish because His title was not Son of Jews? No… obviously the fact that he was the Son of Man did not stop him from being Jewish.

Finally, who was Christ’s audience, they were… (drum roll) JEWS! A little example on why audience is important… if I am in a room with a mixed crowd of men and women… and I say “will all the men please stand”… Do I expect that all the men in the entire world should stand? No, I expect that when I say that, I am only taking to my audience, therefore the word “Men” refers to the men in m audience, not all the men in the world. Likewise when Christ said, “The Sabbath was made for man…” Christ was not talking about all the world, he was talking about the people in His audience, who were all…. (Drum roll again)… JEWS!!!

Furthermore, this text you quote is great… because it proves that the Sabbath is not eternal because it WAS MADE for man. It is not an eternal precept… it was something that was made for the benefit of man. Well… you may be asking yourself… why? Scripture tells us: “(Gal 3:19 NASB) Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.”

The Law, and hence the Sabbath, WAS ADDED because of sin… UNTIL (this means it was going to end) Christ was to come! Now… isn’t that just what I was saying all along?

Also, the Passover is just called “the Passover” in dozens of instances try.Matthew 26 and Mark 14, check them out, furthermore, reversing your same argument, I can prove that the Sabbath is for the Jews… Exodus 31:

13 "But as for you, **speak to the sons of **Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.

Notice, the command is for the Son’s of Israel, not the world… and it is a covenant between God and the sons of Israel, not everyone.

14 'Therefore you are to observe the sabbath, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Notice, the verse states that it is holy to THE SONS OF ISRAEL, not to all mankind, or gentiles…

16 ‘So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.’

Again, God says, it is the “sons of Israel” that should observe the Sabbath… I mean God is pretty clear here… its all about Israel!! Not a gentile commandment in sight!!

17 “It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.”

And yet again, it is a sign between God and… yep, you guess it… the SONS OF ISRAEL… How any times does he have to say it before SDA’s say “Geesh… I think God meant that for the Son’s of Israel”.

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:

"… And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because

in it He had rested from all His work which God had created and made" Genesis 2:1-3.

I have read that… it proves nothing of your point… it neither confirms that the command was given before the Exodus, nor does it reference any keeping of the Sabbath. In fact, this verse does not even tell us when he sanctified and blessed the Seventh-DAY (not days). It does not say the blessing is recurring, it does not even explain what the blessing means to mankind, it is a flimsy verse to build your beliefs on! I believe that God blessed the 7th day of creation, I just dont read into it what is not there.

herry:

Was not Jesus, in Mark 2:27 referencing these, His own words when He made the Sabbath?

How could he have been?? There is no mention of the word Sabbath or any equivalent command or idea in Genesis, it just plain is not there! I realize that the SDA Church uses this verse to say that the Sabbath was instituted at Creation… but in reality… there is no mention of a Sabbath!

herry:

Yes, Adam and Eve constituted the entire human race when the Sabbath was made. no less than 1000 years before there was a Jew.

Herry… problem is that your making these fantastic claims about the Sabbath being made at creation… when the Creation story makes no reference at all to a weekly Sabbath, weekly rest, or command for men (even if only Adam and Eve) to keep a Sabbath. I mean your totally pulling this creation Sabbath story out of thin air… Do I need to quote the entire creation story and go through day seven to show you there is no word for Sabbath in there? Or are you going to quit this fabrication and admit that there is no scriptural proof in the Bible that anyone was commanded to keep the Sabbath until the Exodus?

herry:

I do not care what the Jews say about the Sabbath. They also say that Jesus is not the Christ. Anyone who says that I will not listen to (1 John

2:22).

I find it sad that you don’t care what the Jews say about the Sabbath… afterall Christ is Jewish… but I do believe you, ie. That you don’t care! I do care… I must, afterall, the Jews are still a covenant people of God, it was through the Jewish people that God produced Christ, it was through the Jews that God passed down the Sabbath (which you wouldn’t know anything about if it weren’t for them) and it was through the Jews that God passed on the Old Testament… so if you really don’t care what the Jews say… then you may as well rip out your OT and most of the NT too because they all have heavy Jewish influence. Otherwise, you may want to look into the understanding of those who were closer to the events of God and Christ than either you or I, afterall… it is their Sabbath your attempting to re-define, you may as well understand who they say the Sabbath was given to!

herry:

Someone said that Sunday is the Day of rest/ worship for Christians, but there is no place in scripture where it says that. As to the question of whether or not the New Testament commands Sunday or Sabbath keeping, I will let a prince of the Catholic Church tell you what it says: "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday

, a day which we never sanctify" Cardinal Gibbons 'Faith of our Fathers p. 111.

I do not argue with this… it is correct… I never said the scriptures do authorize the sanctification of Sunday… so your arguing against your own straw man! But then again… the scriptures do not explicitly teach us about birth control, genetics, or even the Trinity for that matter! So… I am curious as to what your point is, as the scriptures do CLEARLY teach that the Saturday Sabbath was abolished at the cross, and the Church, which scriptures tell has the authority to bind, teaches us about the Lords Day!!

herry:

Jesus said “think not that I am come to destroy the law, I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill…, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” Matt.

5:17, 18
continued…

I agree… Christ did fulfill all the requirements of the Law and the Prophets… no longer do we have try to do the same… he free’d us from them! He fulfilled all!!

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:

“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass than for one tittle of the law to fail” Luke 16:17…

He will magnify the law, and make it honorable" Isaiah 42:21
The Gospels were written some 30 years after the ressurection. the writers had plenty of time to inform us that they were keeping Sunday instead of the Sabbath, but they don’t. But, there is conclusive evidence that Jesus and his apostles kept the Sabbath.

There is definitely conclusive evidence they kept the Sabbath, and there is conclusive evidence they observed the Holy Days, and there is conclusive evidence that they went to a synagogue, not a SDAChurch, and there is conclusive evidence that they fished, etc…etc…etc…

Do you fish, do you attend synagogue every Saturday, do you climb the hills around Jerusalem, were you baptized in the Jordan river? If you do not do all of these things which Christ did, then I am not sure what your point is about them observing the Sabbath. I agree they did observe the Sabbath, afterall… THEY WERE JEWS!!! There is no statement in scripture that shows that any importance was placed on the Sabbath after Christ’s death, no command for a Christian to keep the Sabbath, no verse that states that the Apostles continued to observe the Sabbath laws. None!!

herry:

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Fathers commandments, and abide in his love” John 15:10

“And He (Jesus) came to Nazareth where he had been brought up: and AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read” Luke 4:16…

I have no qualms with the above verses you quoted… I agree we should abide in the commandments of God… I realize Christ was Jewish and it was his custom to go the Synagogue, I know the Apostles preached on the Sabbath, afterall… they preached every day!

herry:

“And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that the Word might be preached to them next Sabbath…And the next Sabbath day, came almost the whole city together to hear the Word of God” Acts 13:42, 44 This book of Acts was written at least 30 years by Luke after the passion of Christ, that is plenty of time to tell us that they were keeping Sunday instead. Read Acts

13:42, and tell me with a strait face that the gentiles had a tendancy to gather on sunday…

The apostles preached where the people were… they did go to the synagogues… and to all the towns, they preached in people’s homes, they preached in the upper chamber on Sunday (Acts 20), they preached on the Sabbath, they preached all the time. What is your point? None of these verses you are quoting command or claim that the Apostles continued to keep the Jewish Sabbath, they merely give us a chronology of their experiences, and in Jewish towns, the Sabbath was the day where both Jews and Gentiles ceased from work and were available to listen!

herry:

Finally, we have evidence that John kept the Sabbath day holy and tells us explicitly.“I John, who am also your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called patmos, for the Word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as a trumpet” Revelation 1:9-10

I hate to break it to you friend, but this verse does not mention keeping the Sabbath. It does not mention keeping any day holy, it merely tells us the day on which he received the vision, and unless you totally ignore the common usage of the phrase “Lords Day” in the first and second century, that particular phrase meant Sunday. I know SDA’s will claim it was the Sabbath, since God is the Lord of the Sabbath, but adding two verses that have nothing to with each other together and claiming they do is well… poor scholarship. Furthermore, based on other writings and how the phrase was used, it is clear that the phrase was used to denote Sunday, and that is how the early Christians would and did understand it when they read John’s letter. SDA’s can ignore it, but since the early Christians were the original audience, and knew the language, they probably had a pretty good idea.

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:

John was there for the Testimony of Jesus Christ. “The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy…” Revelation 19:10. “The spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets, for God is not the author of confusion…” 1 Corinthians 14:32, 33

So… what your doing is called proof texting… it is the method of taking several Bible verses that are not related to each other in context and trying to tie them together to prove a point which was not actually made by the writers, its humorous to me, cause I used to do it! LOL

herry:

. The Holy Spirit, through the prophet Isaiah, God calls the Sabbath “My Holy Day” Isaiah 58:13-14. If God said through Isaiah that the Sabbath is His Holy day, and then said through John that sunday is His holy day, how could He justly say He is not the author of confusion?

Well… three responses… first… God can change anything because he is our God, and therefore the only ones who are confused by this are those who do not want to follow his new teachings… for example, first he told man (not just Jews) to sacrifice an animal when they sinned, and now we don’t! Its just not that confusing unless you want to make it confusing. He commanded the Passover to be observed, then he didn’t… and so on… you get the picture.

Second, John never claims that Sunday is “God’s Holy Day”, so your argument is against your own strawman. John merely uses a common term for Sunday in his writings so his readers would have a frame of reference.

Third, God calls many things Holy, in fact in Psalms 89:20 God had “My Holy Oil”… this fact does not exclude Christians from using other oil for anointing and holy purposes.

herry:

. Or how could God Justly say that He never changes?(Eccl.

3:14) Or how could He justly say that His (10) commandments endure for ever (Psalm 111:7, 8)?

Well… first of all, sounds like your argument is more with scripture than with me, but God has not changed, that does not however mean that the instructions he gives us do not change. Just use for example the sacrifice example I used above. I could say the same thing about that, but we know that the sacrifices were a type of the real sacrifice to come, even though that is not always completely clear in scripture. Likewise we know that the temporal rest of the Sabbath was a type of the eternal rest of salvation.

Secondly, You quoted Psalms 111, but notice that you had to (insert) the reference to TEN commandments into the scripture? This verse is a reference to God’s Commandments, not necessarily just the 10 commandments like you tried to insert. We are still under the commandments of God, but they are written upon our hearts by the Holy Spirit, not on cold stone, they are larger than the 10 commandments, and encompass much more!

herry:

. How could He say He would never alter what goes out of His mouth (Psalm 89:34)?

Herry, get out from under the SDA shades and look at this through another Lens. The Sabbath was not given to Christians, It was given to Jews. The covenant with Israel has not changed, but we are under a new covenant, not the Jewish Covenant. Who said anyone changed what he said? I certainly know exactly what he said to the Jews and what he commanded of them, but I am not a Jew, so… I follow the Christian covenant, not the Jewish covenant.

I know, you are probably going to say… the 10 commandments are not a covenant, but alas, scripture says they are:

(Exo 34:28 NASB) So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

And the NT says that for Christians, once we accept the Gospel we are no longer under the old covenant given at Sinai… we can discuss this further if you want.

Cont…

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:

. God had foreknowledge that someone would try to change His law (Daniel

7:25), and there is historically, and doctrinally only one institution that claims to have the power to change God’s law, and has implimented it.

Actually, Catholics have not changed the Jewish law at all… whatever gave you that idea? Tell me, what have we changed in the Jewish Law? The Jewish laws listed in our scriptures are the same laws listed in your scriptures… so what changed?

This vague prophecy in Daniel could be fulfilled by MANY people throughout history, Antiochus Epiphanes is just one… but we can discuss that further too if you would like… I can easily prove that the RCC church is not the beast power or little horn of Daniel…

Ok… just to make sure we are keeping up:

*You still have not provided a verse which even mentions the word Sabbath, or the idea of a weekly Sabbath commanded for men to observe before Exodus.
*You still have not shown one single verse in which a post Pentacost Christian was commanded to observe the Sabbath.

• You have not shown one verse which states that the Apostles kept the Jewish Sabbath as a holy day after Christ, the only verses you provided showed only that they preached on the Sabbath, but we all already knew that.
• You have not shown that the Church does not have authority to bind and loose
• You have not proven that the Sabbath was given to anyone but the Jews, you mentioned one verse that had a reference to “Man” in it, but it was hardly a verse to base an entire doctrinal system on!
• You claimed that Catholics changed the Laws of God, althoug if we did… we did a lousy job, cause here we are discussing them, and they are in both of our Bibles… So… I think you have more work to do on that one too…

So… would you like to know why we DO observe Sunday as the Lords Day?

Peace to you too Herry,
Brandon

 

[herry]

SDA2RC:

Actually, Catholics have not changed the Jewish law at all… whatever gave you that idea? Tell me, what have we changed in the Jewish Law? The Jewish laws listed in our scriptures are the same laws listed in your scriptures… so what changed?

This vague prophecy in Daniel could be fulfilled by MANY people throughout history, Antiochus Epiphanes is just one… but we can discuss that further too if you would like… I can easily prove that the RCC church is not the beast power or little horn of Daniel…

Ok… just to make sure we are keeping up:

*You still have not provided a verse which even mentions the word Sabbath, or the idea of a weekly Sabbath commanded for men to observe before Exodus.
*You still have not shown one single verse in which a post Pentacost Christian was commanded to observe the Sabbath.

• You have not shown one verse which states that the Apostles kept the Jewish Sabbath as a holy day after Christ, the only verses you provided showed only that they preached on the Sabbath, but we all already knew that.
• You have not shown that the Church does not have authority to bind and loose
• You have not proven that the Sabbath was given to anyone but the Jews, you mentioned one verse that had a reference to “Man” in it, but it was hardly a verse to base an entire doctrinal system on!
• You claimed that Catholics changed the Laws of God, althoug if we did… we did a lousy job, cause here we are discussing them, and they are in both of our Bibles… So… I think you have more work to do on that one too…

So… would you like to know why we DO observe Sunday as the Lords Day?

Peace to you too Herry,
Brandon

Dear Brandon,

The Ten Commandments are God’s moral law. The entire Bible, though God breathed is written by human hand. But, the Ten Commandments alone were not only God breathed, and spoken, but written by God’s own hand! When Jesus was asked about the commandments, he always mentioned the Ten commandments. He said “thou knwest the commandments…thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill, etc”

We live 2000 years after the passion of our Lord, it is very easy for us to beleive that things have always been like they are now. That Christians have always beleived the Sabbath to be Jewish. They simply did not. God used the Sabbath as a test for the Jews. Just like He used the fruit of knowledge to test adam and eve. There was nothing inherently wrong with eating a piece of fruit. The point was, God wanted to test them to see if they would obey HIm in all things. When the Israelites went out and gathered manna on the sabbath, God said “how long will you refuse to keep my commandments, and walk in my laws”? --Exodus ch. 16:27-28. God could just have easily said ‘how long will you refuse to keep the Sabbath’.

There is nothing inherently wrong with working on a certain day. It is wrong because God said so. The sabbath is a test of whther or not we will obey God in all things. All the other commandments have conscience and reason behind them. if we hurt someone we feel bad. If we steal we fear we will get caught. If we commit adultery we know we have wronged our neighbor. But only the Sabbath can be kept by a person that has known God, and known why he keeps it.

In the midst of the fourth commandment God tells us why He wants us to keep holy the Sabbath day. I know you have read it tons of times, but read it carefully.

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days thou shalt labor and do all thy work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. In it thou shalt not do any work…For in Six days the Lord thy God made heavens, and earth, and the sea and all that is in them, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed: that is why the Lord thy God blessed the Sabbath day, adn sanctified it”. Exodus 20:8, 11

We have seen in the past 1700 years a loss of Sabbath keeping. Barley anyone has kept His day holy. Even I have not kept it for most of my Christian walk. The early Church kept it until the 4th century, and after that, only small congregations here and there kept it in remote areas.

If God were to give the people on earth a last message in these last days to return to keeping of His holy day how would He tell us? Let me ask you, why did God command Sabbath keeping??? Because in Six days He made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things in them. Wouldn’t you agree that Sabbath keeping is the best way to wroship God for His mighty works of creation? After all, that is why He told us to keep it.

Continued…

 

[herry]

" And I saw another angel…Saying with a loud voice, fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgement is come: And worship him who created heaven, adn earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. If any man worship the beast and image, and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation…“Here is the patience of the saints, here are they who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus”
Revelation 14:6, 7, 9, 10, 12

I know I skipped a little bit, but open your Bible and read these verses carefully. There is a call back to worship God for creation. And then the recipients of the mark of the beast are immidiatley contrasted to those who keep the commandments of God.

Pax,

Herry

 

[herry]

SDA2RC:

Actually, Catholics have not changed the Jewish law at all… whatever gave you that idea? Tell me, what have we changed in the Jewish Law? The Jewish laws listed in our scriptures are the same laws listed in your scriptures… so what changed?

I cannot say that the Church changed a Jewish law, and I never said they did . I said they changed God’s moral law. Not to mention teh second commandment about graven images. They chagned the Sabbath, and hundred and hundreds of books alledge to this. Go ask your priest, actually, don’t ask your priest, ask your Bishop or archbishop if the Catholic Church alone is responsible for transferring the solemnity of the Sabbath form Saturday to Sunday. Acts 20:7, and 1 Cor. 16:2 he will first tell you about, but then, if yousay theat they say nothing about a change in the Sabbath, or est. of Sunday. He will finally tell you that ‘Christ gave the Church the power to cahnge His law’.

This vague prophecy in Daniel could be fulfilled by MANY people throughout history, Antiochus Epiphanes is just one… but we can discuss that further too if you would like… I can easily prove that the RCC church is not the beast power or little horn of Daniel…

Already you are trying to diminish this prophecy, calling it vague, when it is not vague at all. There is only one way for the Papacy to dodge this prophecy and that is to put a 2000 year and growing gap between Daniel 7:6, and ver. 7. Antiochus was not even a Roman. he was a selucid ruler, one of the succeeding rulers of the selucid empire after greece was divided between Alexanders 4 generals (Daniel 7:6). Also, this little horn of Rome continues in power until the second coming of Christ! Daniel 7:21-22 and arises out of the Roman Empire after its division into seperate kingdoms (Daniel 7:23-25).

“It is therefore by a particular decree of divine providence that, after the fall of the Roman Empire, and its partition into seperate kingdoms, the Roman Pontiff, whom Christ made the head of his Church, accuired civil power” Pius IX, Cum Catholica Ecclesia, (apostolic letter) March 26, 1860

And it attempts to change God’s law:

“We keep Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, at the Council of Laodicea, transferred the solemnity of the Sabbath from saturday to Sunday” --Peter Guiermann, Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50 (1946),

Ok… just to make sure we are keeping up:

*You still have not provided a verse which even mentions the word Sabbath, or the idea of a weekly Sabbath commanded for men to observe before Exodus.

God blessed the Sabbath day from creation. And when He gave in in the decalogue, He reminded them, that it was blesed from and because of creation.

*You still have not shown one single verse in which a post Pentacost Christian was commanded to observe the Sabbath.

The silence of the scriptures on one commandment does not mean we can break it. Deceptions are carefully thought out, and verses are twisted to men’s opinions. There is more in the writings of the early Church, or what you would call tradition which shows that they kept the Sabbath.

• You have not shown one verse which states that the Apostles kept the Jewish Sabbath as a holy day after Christ, the only verses you provided showed only that they preached on the Sabbath, but we all already knew that.

“And they prepared spices and oinments: and rested according to the commandment” Luke 23:56

This gospel of like was written no less than 30 years after the ressurrection. Why did Luke say that they “rested according to the commandment”? These women had been with Jesus for years. Then, when Luke writes, He mentions the Sabbath as something they kept, but makes no mention that Sunday had supplanted it.

• You have not shown that the Church does not have authority to bind and loose

“To the law, and to the Testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is becasue there is no light in them” Iasiah 8:20

continued…

 

[herry]

The Roman Magisterum (not people) has made void God’s law through thier traditions. Not only with the Sabbath, but also statues, and graven images. They cool your consciences with thier words like “well God then is a liar because he told them to make images in another place”. Or “Catholics know the difference between a pagan idol and a chirsitan one”. Or they know that theree is no divinity in the idol, so, when they bow before them, and kiss them, and prostrate tehmselves before them, the veneration is paid to the individuals htey represent (see Coucil of Trent session 25)

The heathen did not beleive thier gods were confinded to idols. They thought htye were up in the skies sailing around the great river of the universe. Or having kids with goddesses. Or winning or losing wars.

The difference between pagans and Christians is that Pagans have a material representation of thier faith. But Christians worship the God who created all things and cannot be seen because we have lost unity with HIm as the restult of our sins. (this is another post)

• You have not proven that the Sabbath was given to anyone but the Jews, you mentioned one verse that had a reference to “Man” in it, but it was hardly a verse to base an entire doctrinal system on!

One word from Jesus is good enough for me and carries more weight than a thousand years of tradition. And His voice drowns out that of the popes.

• You claimed that Catholics changed the Laws of God, althoug if we did… we did a lousy job, cause here we are discussing them, and they are in both of our Bibles… So… I think you have more work to do on that one too…

Like I said, go read the books. They did a lousy job? Then why do even the protestants keep thier change? Why didn’t any reformers speak out against the sabbath? “I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for them land, that I should not destroy it; But I found none” Ezekiel 22:30

“it is time for thee, O Lord to work, for they have made void thy law” Psalm 119:126

So… would you like to know why we DO observe Sunday as the Lords Day?

“Many shall follow them in their pernicious ways, by reason of whom the truth shall be evil spoken of” 2 Pet. 2:2

Peace to you too Herry,
Brandon

Sorry I sort of took the gloves off on that one, but truth is truth. I mean this with all love and respect, I would tell it the same way to a Catholic Family member. I know that debating changes no ones minds, But I hope that you will put your trust in God’s word OVER man’s word. God spoke and wrote the commandments.

Peace and Guidance to you in Christ,

herry

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:
The Ten Commandments are God’s moral law. The entire Bible, though God breathed is written by human hand. But, the Ten Commandments alone were not only God breathed, and spoken, but written by God’s own hand! When Jesus was asked about the commandments, he always mentioned the Ten commandments. He said “thou knwest the commandments…thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill, etc”

Herry, we only have a couple of instances where Christ speaks of commandments, and they are not ALWAYS about the 10 Commandments, furthermore, the Apostles are even more clear about the Commandments.

(Mat 22:40NASB) “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Here Christ is speaking of only two commandments, not Ten, and they were given by Christ.

(1 Th 4:2 NASB) For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

Here I the apostles are speaking of the commandments THEY (Not Moses of Christ to the Jews) gave to the Christians BY THE AUTHORITY OF CHRIST!

(1 John 2:7 NASB) Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.

(1 John 2:8 NASB) On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.

Again, New commandment

(Mark 10:5 NASB) But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.

(Mark 10:6 NASB) "But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.

(Mark 10:7 NASB) "FOR THIS CAUSE A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER,

(Mark 10:8 NASB) AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh.

(Mark 10:9 NASB) “What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

Here Christ speaks of a commandment which again, was not included in the 10 commandments.

(John 10:18NASB) “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

Here Christ received a commandment which was not related to the 10 commandments

Continued -

 

[SDA2RC]

(John 13:34NASB) "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

(John 13:35NASB) “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Here Christ gives us a NEW commandment, one which had not been given before by Christ, and it is no one of the 10 commandments, but it is certainly one of the commandments of Christ.

(John 15:12NASB) "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

Here we find out what Christ’s commandment is!! It is not the Sabbath. When scripture tells us we are to follow the commandments of God or Christ, Christ did not give the Sabbath commandment to Christians, he gave the commandment of Love!!

(1 Cor 14:37NASB) If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandments.

Paul here states that HE is conveying the Lords Commandments, and he never even commanded Christians to observe the Sabbath!!!

(1 Th 4:2 NASB) For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

(Heb 7:5 NASB) And those indeed of the sons of Levi who receive the priest’s office have commandment in the Law to collect a tenth from the people, that is, from their brethren, although these are descended from Abraham.

Here is a commandment to collect Tithing… again, not part of the 10 commandments.

(Heb 7:18NASB) For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness

Here is a verse that explains that commandments can be set aside because of their weakness!

We could go on and on, but the point Herry, is that although SDA’s would LOVE for us to believe that anytime we are exhorted to follow “the commandment” we are being told to follow the Sabbath, the truth of the matter is that Christ gave us literally hundreds of commandments in the NT both while on earth and through is Apostles, and NOT ONE OF THEM was a command to keep the Jewish Sabbath!! But you are right in one sense… When Christ was ministering among the Jews, he did refer to the 10 commandments which were part of the Law that was given to them… after all… they were under obligation to abide by the whole law!!!
Continued - Sorry

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:
We live 2000 years after the passion of our Lord, it is very easy for us to beleive that things have always been like they are now. That Christians have always beleived the Sabbath to be Jewish. They simply did not.** God used the Sabbath as a test for the Jews. …**God could just have easily said ‘how long will you refuse to keep the Sabbath’.
Exactly… you said the key phrase… GOD USED THE SABBATH AS A TEST FOR THE JEWS!!!

herry:
There is nothing inherently wrong with working on a certain day. It is wrong because God said so. The sabbath is a test of whther or not we will obey God in all things. … But only the Sabbath can be kept by a person that has known God, and known why he keeps it.

Herry, the Sabbath has a reason behind it too… it’s reason is that Makind longs for peace and it is a peace that can only be found in Christ. The Sabbath was to lead men to Christ, not replace Him! The true Sabbath Rest is found in salvation, not in keeping one day as SDA’s do. Futhermore, SDA’s do not even follow scriptural direction on HOW to keep the Sabbath.

herry:
In the midst of the fourth commandment God tells us why He wants us to keep holy the Sabbath day. I know you have read it tons of times, but read it carefully.

Do you not see that in Deut. The reason he gives for the Sabbath is completely different, it is tied to Slavery? Are you now saying that God instituted Slavery at creation and that we should be practicing it too? Herry, I know the scriptures you use, I used them all too, many, many, many times… but when you look at them objectively, you find that they although they mention the Sabbath or the Law etc, how they were written and taken by the Jews and the first century’s Christians was totally different that the SDA doctrines and interpretations. SDA’s have come up with a new spin on them, a new Gospel of sorts, which was not what Christ and the apostles taught! SDA’s practice Isogesis, going through scriptures to try to find single verses that can be used to support their beliefs, rather than looking at the context of each passage and merely taking it for what it is!! Even with me you have tried to join together several verses who’s context’s have nothing at all in common, they merely have the same words, or a conecept you want to convey so you string them together to try to justify your thoughts.

herry:

…

The early Church kept it until the 4th century, and after that, only small congregations here and there kept it in remote areas.

Actually, the EarlyChurch for the most part quit keeping it around the first century, there were groups, most heretical who continued to keep it… but there were outlying groups with all sorts of doctrines… you will find that those who supposedly continued to keep the Sabbath do not believe anything like you do!

herry:
If God were to give the people on earth a last message in these last days to return to keeping of His holy day how would He tell us?.

Why would he ask us to return to something he has already told us to cease doing? God commanded the Sabbath observance to the Jews because of transgressions, just as scripture said.!

Peace,

Brandon

 

[SDA2RC]

Hey Herry!,

herry:
The Roman Magisterum (not people) has made void God’s law through thier traditions. Not only with the Sabbath, but also statues, and graven images. …

See… now this is getting fun! This is a trademark of SDA’s, including my family and what I used to do… ie. You did not quote scripture or make a case for what you said… you merely began making a bunch of openly false assertions with absolutely no basis. For example, “The Roman Magisterium has made void God’s law”. No Herry, scripture voided the Jewish laws, just because you refuse to believe scripture, does not mean that you have the right to bear false witness against God’s church. You have not dealt with the verses that show that the 10 commandments are the OLD covenant, the myriad of verses in the NT that show that the old covenant was don’t away with at Christ’s resurrection… however, you still go ahead making false assertions based on lies and a refusal to just believe what scripture has to say… plain a clear!

If you want to talk about Images etc, then please open another thread

herry:

• You have not proven that the Sabbath was given to anyone but the Jews, you mentioned one verse that had a reference to “Man” in it, but it was hardly a verse to base an entire doctrinal system on!

One word from Jesus is good enough for me and carries more weight than a thousand years of tradition. And His voice drowns out that of the popes.

The problem is that just because it contains the word “man” does not mean the purpose and meaning of the verse is what you tried to tear out of it! It is not a matter of Jesus’ word vs tradition, it’s a matter of what scripture actually says Vs. what SDA’s try to force into the text. Christ was not giving a command for all men to keep the Sabbath, he was not even giving a command, he was simply refuting the JEWS.

herry:

• You claimed that Catholics changed the Laws of God, althoug if we did… we did a lousy job, cause here we are discussing them, and they are in both of our Bibles… So… I think you have more work to do on that one too…

Like I said, go read the books. They did a lousy job? Then why do even the protestants keep thier change? Why didn’t any reformers speak out against the sabbath? “I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for them land, that I should not destroy it; But I found none” Ezekiel 22:30.

The reformers didn’t speak out against the Sabbath because there was nothing to speak out about… Scripture is clear on the issue of the Sabbath and the Leaders ordained of God are clear about the Lords Day… including the Apostles. Your choice to ignore all evidence that rebuts your position does not make everyone else wrong. See… We never changed the Sabbath… the Jewish Sabbath is still Saturday, no one has changed it Herry. We simply worship on the Lords day, it’s not a replacement, its completely different! You celebrate with the Jews, we celebrate the Death and resurrection.

herry:
Sorry I sort of took the gloves off on that one, but truth is truth. I mean this with all love and respect, I would tell it the same way to a Catholic Family member. I know that debating changes no ones minds, But I hope that you will put your trust in God’s word OVER man’s word. God spoke and wrote the commandments.

Herry, don’t apologize for being passionate about your beliefs… I hope and pray you will put your trust in Christ and his new covenant instead of holding onto parts of the Jewish system of salvation and the Old Covenant.

Peace,

Brandon