The Sabbath

[adrift]

herry:

Nope. There are only two logical consclusions from this. 1) They were gather Saturday night (which would be Sunday to them and thus they wouold call it evening of the first day of the week. Or 2) they were gathered Sunday evening, which would be monday to them.

Most true is the former. “And upon the first day of the week, when the Apostles came together to break break, Paul preached unto them, and continued His speech until midnight” Acts 20:7

First day of the week, and it was at night, so, saturday night. A young man fell asleep in the window, so why would this happen at daytime? Also, there were many lights in the room they were in, why would they be wasting thier oil at daytime? The verse mentions the first day of the week at night time, so it must have been saturday night.

You missed my point. You said that Paul traveled Sunday morning because it was the next day. By your reckoning, it had to be Sunday night or Monday morning that he traveled. It states quite planely that he preached until midnight. If they met Sunday afternoon, it would still be the first day of the week that they met and Paul would have technically preached until the next day. The verse says they met on the first day of the week. You immediatly assume that it was Saturday night. But there is no proof that they did. Your assumption that because Paul taught until midnight that it must have been Saturday night is unfounded.

 

[SDA2RC]

adrift:

You missed my point. You said that Paul traveled Sunday morning because it was the next day. By your reckoning, it had to be Sunday night or Monday morning that he traveled. It states quite planely that he preached until midnight. If they met Sunday afternoon, it would still be the first day of the week that they met and Paul would have technically preached until the next day. The verse says they met on the first day of the week. You immediatly assume that it was Saturday night. But there is no proof that they did. Your assumption that because Paul taught until midnight that it must have been Saturday night is unfounded.

I will respond more to this later… but Adrift you are correct, the timing of this depends on many things, such as if he was reconing the day as a Jewish day or as a Roman day, both of which are used in both the Gospels and the Epistles. Herry’s position is based on several assumptions, but most likely more based on the SDA commentary on the verse. But suffice to say, I think the evidence, though not conclusive, leans towards a Sunday interpretation. I will post more later tonight about it and explain my reasoning.

brandon

 

[Northwind]

Way back in post # 7 was Col 2 raised, but only concerning festivals…"Romans 14 is similar to Colossians 2:16, paul tells us not to judge eachother about the festival days “which were a shadow of things to come”. The weekly rest of the 7th day was given as a mermorial of God’s action, therefore it could never foreshadow atonement for sin like the passover, day of atonement, etc. All those feast days were insituted to foreshadow atonement. The Sabbath existed before sin, so therefore stands untouched by the laws of sin, and death, etc. The other days were given only because sin had entered the world."

But Col 2 specifically mentions the sabbath…

Col 2:16-17
**16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day – **
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

We had this discussion just last night in Bible study.

 

[John_Taylor]

…forgive me for not reading through the whole of this thread…if this has been answered I hope someone will be kind enough to show me…I’ve debated this issue with Sabbath Keepers on other occasions but have yet to receive a reply to the following:

Where in Scripture has God revealed where “the date line” is to be established? To understand what I’m asking please see: phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl.htm

For the sake of argument, let’s allow that the Jews in Israel have faithfully observed “every seventh day” since the time of Exodus, such that, when sundown Friday evening occurs in Israel the “true” seventh day begins.

Depending on where the date line is established, “Sundown Friday evening in Israel” can either be “sunrise Friday morning in North America” (if the seventh day occurs first in Israel) or “sunrise Saturday morning in North America” (if the seventh day occurs first in North America).

Assuming that Israel observes the “true” seventh day - how does mankind on the opposite side of the earth know whether their observance of the seventh day follows or precedes that of Israel?

Keep the Faith
jmt

 

[SDA2RC]

SDA2RC:

I will respond more to this later… but Adrift you are correct, the timing of this depends on many things, such as if he was reconing the day as a Jewish day or as a Roman day, both of which are used in both the Gospels and the Epistles. Herry’s position is based on several assumptions, but most likely more based on the SDA commentary on the verse. But suffice to say, I think the evidence, though not conclusive, leans towards a Sunday interpretation. I will post more later tonight about it and explain my reasoning.

brandon

So… just a little more about the day of Acts 20… So the SDA’s argue that it was Saturday night vs. Sunday evening, but either way, it was after the Sabbath was over, so they certainly cannot say it was a meeting held on the Sabbath for any reason. Thus when SDA’s claim that Paul Kept the Sabbath because he preached on Saturday in the Synagogue, one could just as easily claim that he kept Sunday because he preached on Sunday on a home… the plain fact is that neither his preaching on Saturday or on Sunday indicates if he observed one or the other as a Jewish Sabbath would have been observed.

So, I believe that this verse is referring to Sunday for a couple of reasons, first, it is generally accepted that Luke wrote this Gospel of Luke and Acts while with Peter in Rome, ie. to a Gentile church where the Roman reconing of days was used.

Second, Luke was a gentile most likely from Antioch. Tradition holds that he was Greek, scripture seperates him from “the circumcised” in Colossians.

Third, the primary audience of the book was probably the Church in Rome, a gentile church.

When you add these up… a Gentile writer, writing in a Gentile land, to a primarily Gentile church would likely not use a Jewish system of time reconing, he would use that which he and his audience recognized and were familiar with. We see other examples of this in scripture… one such is the in John 20:19 where Evening of the first day did not refer to Saturday night, but to Sunday night since Christ had not risen until Sunday morning.

In my opinion the SDA arguement that this refers to Saturday night is not logical when examined in light of textual and historical facts.

Brandon

 

[SDA2RC]

John Taylor:

…forgive me for not reading through the whole of this thread…if this has been answered I hope someone will be kind enough to show me…I’ve debated this issue with Sabbath Keepers on other occasions but have yet to receive a reply to the following:

Where in Scripture has God revealed where “the date line” is to be established? To understand what I’m asking please see: phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl.htm

Keep the Faith
jmt

JMT, you are completely right! SDA’s claim that God blessed and sanctified a specific 24 hour period… however, SDA’s all observe different 24 hour periods as the Sabbath based on where they are in the world. Therefore when it is Sabbath in the US…at the exact same moment, it is sunday shopping time in Australia! How can the exact same moment in time be both the Sabbath and not the Sabbath if God expects us to keep the 24 hours that he set aside and expects of us!

What is boils down to is that What is Sabbath to one SDA is not Sabbath to another in another location, therefore SDA’s really just observe one 24 hour period out of 7 depending on their relative location to the International Date line!

“Now, if, as Mrs. White and Uriah Smith say, the angels keep our Sabbath, the question is, With which party do they keep it ? With those in Australia, or those in America ? If the angels keep the Sabbath at the same time the Sabbatarians keep it in Australia, then the Sabbatarians in America are working while the angels keep Sabbath, and so, of course, the angels work while those here rest. So we see how absolutely false and absurd is the theory that all can keep the Sabbath at the same time.”

Here are a couple other links about this… but take note they are protestant… not Catholic.

churchofgodcarmichael.org/sabbath/Sabbath6.html
gospeloutreach.net/chap09.html

Peace,
Brandon

 

[threadkiller]

I think I’ll go ahead and rap this thread up with a verse from the beloved but highly edited, at least by seven books, King James version of the Bible. Matthew 28.1 “In the END of the SABBATH as it began to dawn towards the FIRST DAY of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre”.
They don’t call me threadkiller for nothing.

 

[adrift]

So… just a little more about the day of Acts 20… So the SDA’s argue that it was Saturday night vs. Sunday evening, but either way, it was after the Sabbath was over, so they certainly cannot say it was a meeting held on the Sabbath for any reason. Thus when SDA’s claim that Paul Kept the Sabbath because he preached on Saturday in the Synagogue, one could just as easily claim that he kept Sunday because he preached on Sunday on a home… the plain fact is that neither his preaching on Saturday or on Sunday indicates if he observed one or the other as a Jewish Sabbath would have been observed.

This thought occured to me just before I fell asleep. I am glad you put it so well.

Second, Luke was a gentile most likely from Antioch. Tradition holds that he was Greek, scripture seperates him from “the circumcised” in Colossians.

Third, the primary audience of the book was probably the Church in Rome, a gentile church.

When you add these up… a Gentile writer, writing in a Gentile land, to a primarily Gentile church would likely not use a Jewish system of time reconing, he would use that which he and his audience recognized and were familiar with. We see other examples of this in scripture… one such is the in John 20:19 where Evening of the first day did not refer to Saturday night, but to Sunday night since Christ had not risen until Sunday morning.

In my opinion the SDA arguement that this refers to Saturday night is not logical when examined in light of textual and historical facts…

I was wondering about this. Thanks for the info

 

[adrift]

herrry,

You still have not replied to post 22.

 

[herry]

threadkiller:

I think I’ll go ahead and rap this thread up with a verse from the beloved but highly edited, at least by seven books, King James version of the Bible. Matthew 28.1 “In the END of the SABBATH as it began to dawn towards the FIRST DAY of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre”.
They don’t call me threadkiller for nothing.

No I Think I will go ahead and wrap it up. The Ten Commandments of God were written by God’s own finger. They were put into the ark of the covenant, under the mercy seat. The Ark of the covenant was a replica of the one in heaven (read hebrews ch. 8-10), that means the Ten Commandments are written in heaven. Read Exodus, ch. 16. God made manna fall on six days, but none on the seventh day. Also, if manna was kept overnight it spoiled, grew worms, and stank. The Israelites had to gather manna everyday or esle they went hungry. On the sixth day they were told to gather two days portion. But did it spoil overnight? No, they stood still, and beheld the salvation of the Lord, and filled thier bellies with angels food on the without having to gather it. God told Moses to put a pot of manna in with the ark of the covenant (Exodus 16:32-33) as an eternal reminded of what? THE SABBATH. But wait, this also means that there is also a pot of manna in the heavenly sanctuary as an eternal reminder of the Sabbath.

When Jesus died for our sins, not only did He shed His blood on earth, but He sprinkled His blood for us in the heavenly sanctuary (He appearded before God on our behalf). Everything that was in the old sanctuary is also in the heavenly sanctuary. And the commandments are still there, and the pot of manna is still there. If we continue to live in sin, and declare that God’s law is abolished, then we do injustice to the blood of Christ. His death on our behalf cancelled our payment for sin (death). If we continue to live in sin we completley miss the point. “Do we make the law of God void through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law” Romans 3:31

Sin is forgiven when blood is sprinkled on the mercy seat on top of the ark of the covenant. The Ten Commandments are inside the Ark under the mercy seat. Jesus sprinkled His blood on teh mercy seat in heaven when He appeared before God for us. His blood sprinkled over the Ten Commandments releases us from the penalty for breaking them. This must mean that the Ten Commandments summarize God’s entire law.

The Sabbath is a commandment we keep because God said so. In Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 the writer likens the rest Jesus has given us to the Israelites entering the promised land. When God led them into the promised land by Joshua, did he say ‘okay, we reached our destination, you are now free to break this commandment’? No. The Sabbath became not only a sign of Creation but also sanctification (Deut. 5:12-15). Even so the writer of Hebrews says that Jesus has given us true rest. Does this mean we are free to break the commandment? No, even as Deuteronomy it means that we should keep it as a sign of sanctification in Christ. It reaffirms it!. “There remains therefore a rest (Sabbatismos --Sabbath rest) to the people of God” Hebrews 4:9

Jesus did not break the Sabbath with His healing ministry. You say that Jesus opposed the Jews with his teachings of the Sabbath, but all Jesus was doing was returning the Sabbath to its original purpose. All your comments about how difficult it is to keep, or confusing the numerous restrictions are, etc. That is all baloney. All we have to do is “remember it to keep it holy”. Avoid uneccesary servile work. And gather to worship Jesus the Lord of the Sabbath.

You claim I am mistaken to teach people to keep God’s 4th commandment upon the ground that it is no longer binding, while you very Church invokes the same commandment to make you reverence man’s tradition. What if I asked you, what right does the Church have to inforce sunday observance? Do not all the catechisms make the Sabbath commadnment of the decalogue apply to sunday? Yes, of course.

 

[herry]

Jesus is the same “yesterday, today and for ever”. And “the same God which said thou shalt not kill” also said remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. The Sabbath is at the center of worship in a Christians life. It underlies all the commandments because it was given as an example of God’s activity (Genesis 2:1-3) rather than to counter a sin, and it provides time for worship. In the garden of eden God gave adam and eve a test. He did not give them one of the commandemtns to see if they wouldbreak it. He gave them a simple teast telling them not to eat of a certain fruit. It was simply a sin because God said so. It was a test to see if they would obey God in all things. In the Sabbath story of Exodus 16, the Israelites broke the Sabbath, and gather manna on it. God says to Moses “how long will you refuse to walk in my law, and keep my commadnments”? ver. 27-28 He could have just as easily said “why won’t you keep the Sabbath”, but He did not, the Sabbath was a test to see if they would obey HIm in all things.

What if God chose the Sabbath once again, to test His people in the last days in the final tribulation? God gave the Israelites this Sabbath test “to see if they will walk in His law, or no” ver.4-5. In Revelation 14, those who refuse the mark of the beast are immidiatly contrasted to those who keep the commadnments of God.(Revelation 14:7-12). And finally in Revelation 22:14, those who enter the kingdom of heaven have been charachterized by keeping the commandments. Why so much emphasis in the end times on the commandments?

Can you all afford to blind you eyes and follow the Church when even its early founders kept the Sabbath day holy? Even the line of St. Ignatius which the Catetchism uses to enforce sundaykeeping is from the condensed version… The original quote of igantius, you may read in Ante-Nicene Fathers vol. I p. 63, Ignatius says “And let every friend of Christ, after he has kept the Sabbath, keep (also) the lord’s day as a festival”.

You are of the conviction that the Sabbath was abolished, but the other nine are binding. I say that all ten are still binding, and Jesus taught the blessing and sanctification of the Sabbath…not the destruction of it (Isaiah 42:21).

God will again use the Sabbath to test His people in these last days. God made no manna fall on the Sabbath day. The antichrist will first influence government to close its doors on Sunday, this includes grocery stores. Oh, wait, there are already laws like that on our books! In teh 19th century, it was prophesied that a national Sunday law will be passed forcing men to keep Sunday holy. After this, many will see the truth of the 4th commandment and disobey governemnt, and the Church to obey God as the the Highest Authority.

What? Highest authority? “The authority of the Church could not therefore be bound to the authority of scripture because it has changed the Sabbath into Sunday, not by command of Christ, but by its own authority” Cardinal of Reggio at the closing session of the Council of Trent, Canon and Tradition, by Heinrich Julius Holtzmann, 1859, p. 263

The event that will lead up to this national sunday law will be unity. All denominations will look to what unifies them rather than what divides them. They will all see Sunday and grasp it. Whether she was a prophetess or not, that is what is happening. And that is how the church in the 4th century gained a union of church and state (through “unity”) Then they will influence government to pass a law to keep it holy. They will clasp hands with the governemnt just like the Church did with the Roman Empire. John Paul II, and Benedict XVI have exhorted the faithful to strive for laws which will respect thier duty to keep sunday holy. On Febuary 5 hundreds of protestant denominations, muslims, and Jewish leaders are meeting for “Ten Commandments day”. They are all gonna hold hands and sing around thier maypole of lying human traditions, in and effort to bring america back to its “Christian” roots. Some of those Christians roots are the vigorous enforcement of “blue laws” which are laws designed to guaruntee the sanctity of SUNDAY.

“You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The scriptures enforce the religious observacne of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify” Cardinal James Gibbons, Faith of our Fathers, p. 111, 1893ed.

“He who will hear, let him hear, he who will forebear, let him forebear”

–May God be with you all,
–herry

 

[SDA2RC]

Herry,

Again your post is full of statements which are based on flat out refusal to acknowledge historical fact, assumptions you cannot support, and a lack of scholarship.

Throughout this thread, I have responded point by point to all your posts, while you have ingnored probably 75% of what I have asked back from you, this leads me to believe your not interested in an honest discussion, only in spreading SDA propaganda.

I hope that you will take some time and seriously think about the accusations you make and the practices you want everyone to follow… think them through completely. You will find they make no sense and you can’t support them either logically or scripturally.

Peace,
Brandon

 

[herry]

SDA2RC:

Herry,

Again your post is full of statements which are based on flat out refusal to acknowledge historical fact, assumptions you cannot support, and a lack of scholarship.

Throughout this thread, I have responded point by point to all your posts, while you have ingnored probably 75% of what I have asked back from you, this leads me to believe your not interested in an honest discussion, only in spreading SDA propaganda.

I hope that you will take some time and seriously think about the accusations you make and the practices you want everyone to follow… think them through completely. You will find they make no sense and you can’t support them either logically or scripturally.

Peace,
Brandon

Dear Brandon,

Please go over all my posts in this thread again, and anything which I have not adressed, please ask, and I would be more than happy address it.

I have no intention of spreading SDA propoganda. History repeates itself, and we are seeing America, the most powerful nation on earth since the Roman Empire, repeating its history. Jesus does not want everybody to become SDA. Jesus was us all to have the unity centered around the truth. He wants Sabbath reform in ALL Churches including protestant.

–herry

 

[adrift]

SDA2RC:

Herry, unfortunately, you quote only what is convenient to you… and you ignore the context of the quote…

Lets look at more of the quote:

Do you disagree with this… that the legal prescriptions of the Old Testament or Mosaic Law were to signify something in the future? I do…

Wow… so now we find the audience or subject of this paragraph… those who after Christ place their hope in legal prescriptions and rely on them for their salvation rather than Christ commit a sin… Herry, I believe in this too… don’t you?

Hmmm… the council does not deny that even after Christ until the Gospel, that the observations of the mosaic covenant could be kept… AS LONG AS THEY WERE NOT BELIEVED TO BE NECESSARY FOR SALVATION! I agree with this too Herry!! Do you agree differently? Can people keep the Mosaic or Jewish laws if they choose as long as they do not believe they are required for salvation, until they hear the Gospel of Christ?

Finally, the council states that those who continue in their Jewish practices and worship style after they have been taught the freeing Gospel of Christ are unable to share in the salvation… why? Why do you think that the church states that AFTER they have received the Gospel, if they continue to worship as Jews, not following the leaders of the Christian church, they would not share in Salvation? Any Idea’s Herry? Also, are you aware of the issue’s that the council was addressing? Thanks

Brandon

herry
this is the post 22 you have not responded to. I would like to know your response. You said that

nd Chalcedon forbid Catholics to observe the Sabbath. I have even been told that I cannot be saved if I keep the Sabbath. The Council of Laodicea outlawed its observance, Gregory I said that antichrist will keep the Sabbath, and suceeding councils throughout the generations have sysematically forbade Sabbath observance in nearly every nation in Europe. The Jesuits influenced the Ethiopians to forbid Sabbath keeping in their Kingdom. There was even an inquisition set up in India because Sabbath observance was found to be widespread there at one point.

Please give me references for these claims. The reference you did give does not hold up.
You also claimed that Paul left Sunday morning. Do you think you were right? You didn’t answer my post on why you were not correct. You claimed sundown to sundown going along with that he could not have left Sunday morning as that was still the first day of the week and it clearly states he left the next day. So when did he leave?

 

[John_Taylor]

HERRY…or any other Sabbath Keeper…PLEASE, can you answer the following…or direct me to a SDA forum where I can receive an answer to this question:

How in Scripture (or by some other “Tradition” with Divine Authority ??) has God revealed “the date line”?

To understand what I’m asking please see: phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl.htm

For the sake of argument, let’s allow that the Jews in Israel have faithfully observed “every seventh day” since the time of Exodus, such that, when sundown Friday evening occurs in Israel the “true” seventh day begins.

Depending on where the date line is established, “Sundown Friday evening in Israel” can either be “sunrise Friday morning in North America” (if the seventh day occurs first in Israel) or “sunrise Saturday morning in North America” (if the seventh day occurs first in North America).

Assuming that Israel observes the “true” seventh day - how does mankind on the opposite side of the earth know whether their observance of the seventh day follows or precedes that of Israel?

As I see it, such a determination (as to “when” God’s People - living on the other side of the earth from Israel - will observe the Sabbath Command) must rely on the Authority of that Church established by Jesus Christ with the authority to “bind and loose”. How else can this question be answered?

Thank you for any help you can offer.

Keep the Faith
jmt

 

[John_Taylor]

herry:

The Ten Commandments of God were written by God’s own finger.

This I believe. But as I read the Sabbath Command it binds the following: for six days we are to do all our work but on “the seventh day” we are to rest. As a Catholic I work six days and on “the seventh day following the six days of work” I rest. But you say “Saturday” is “the seventh day” written in stone by God’s own finger and that no other day except Saturday is fitting for observance of the Sabbath Command. If this is so, then must not “the date line” be likewise “written in stone”??? and how about the observance of “the seventh day” in the northern most reaches of the earth where for months in the summer the sun never sets and for months in the winter the sun never rises above the horizon? How are people living in far north Alaska suppose to know when “THE seventh day” arrives?

herry:

This must mean that the Ten Commandments summarize God’s entire law.

This I believe also. I understand the Ten Commandments to be a summary of “The Natural Law” which St Paul affirms is written in the heart of even those who have no knowledge of “The Law” as given mankind through Moses. This means that even “the Sabbath Command” must be written in the heart of every human being. As a Catholic I understand the Sabbath Command - as recorded in the Ten Commandments - to be a specific application of the general Command: “give regular and public worship to God”. It is this General application of the Sabbath Command which is “written in the heart of man” which even the Gentile pagan will be held accountable for. The weekly cycle as commanded of the Jews and adopted by Christ’s Church is NOT “written in the heart” and thus a “ceremonial” aspect of "The Law” and changeable.

herry:

You claim I am mistaken to teach people to keep God’s 4th commandment upon the ground that it is no longer binding, while you very Church invokes the same commandment to make you reverence man’s tradition. What if I asked you, what right does the Church have to enforce sunday observance? Do not all the catechisms make the Sabbath commandment of the Decalogue apply to sunday?

You approach the heart of the issue - and that is “Divine Authority”. The Catholic Church teaches that the Ten Commandments have indeed not been abolished (See Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs 2053, 2063) but if you read the “Sabbath command” (however you may wish to number it) God does not reveal to us how “THE Sabbath” or “THE Seventh day” is to be reckoned as beginning. “After six days of labor” but other than that nothing else is "written in stone.

It follows that if the Church which Jesus established with authority to teach in His name has the power to “bind and loose” such that St Paul can command the gentiles - whom he had previously affirmed their freedom with respect to the observance of “days” (Romans 14:5) - to “not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing” (Heb 10:25) then if the Church decides to obey the “Sabbath command” every seventh day on Sunday in honor of our Lord’s Resurrection such is within the Church’s prerogatives.

The question for me becomes: which “assembly of called out ones” has the authority to teach in Christ’s name? From history, it just seems to me that the Church which had the authority to define the extent of Christ’s Revelation revealed through the New Testament Canon of scripture must also be the Church with the authority to declare what is “bound” (obligatory) and what is “loosed” (permissible) with regards to “The Faith” that Church received and preserves from the Apostles.

Keep the Faith
jmt

 

[threadkiller]

herry:

No I Think I will go ahead and wrap it up. The Ten Commandments of God were written by God’s own finger. They were put into the ark of the covenant, under the mercy seat. The Ark of the covenant was a replica of the one in heaven (read hebrews ch. 8-10), that means the Ten Commandments are written in heaven. Read Exodus, ch. 16. God made manna fall on six days, but none on the seventh day. Also, if manna was kept overnight it spoiled, grew worms, and stank. The Israelites had to gather manna everyday or esle they went hungry. On the sixth day they were told to gather two days portion. But did it spoil overnight? No, they stood still, and beheld the salvation of the Lord, and filled thier bellies with angels food on the without having to gather it. God told Moses to put a pot of manna in with the ark of the covenant (Exodus 16:32-33) as an eternal reminded of what? THE SABBATH. But wait, this also means that there is also a pot of manna in the heavenly sanctuary as an eternal reminder of the Sabbath.

When Jesus died for our sins, not only did He shed His blood on earth, but He sprinkled His blood for us in the heavenly sanctuary (He appearded before God on our behalf). Everything that was in the old sanctuary is also in the heavenly sanctuary. And the commandments are still there, and the pot of manna is still there. If we continue to live in sin, and declare that God’s law is abolished, then we do injustice to the blood of Christ. His death on our behalf cancelled our payment for sin (death). If we continue to live in sin we completley miss the point. “Do we make the law of God void through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law” Romans 3:31

Sin is forgiven when blood is sprinkled on the mercy seat on top of the ark of the covenant. The Ten Commandments are inside the Ark under the mercy seat. Jesus sprinkled His blood on teh mercy seat in heaven when He appeared before God for us. His blood sprinkled over the Ten Commandments releases us from the penalty for breaking them. This must mean that the Ten Commandments summarize God’s entire law.

The Sabbath is a commandment we keep because God said so. In Hebrews chapter 3 and 4 the writer likens the rest Jesus has given us to the Israelites entering the promised land. When God led them into the promised land by Joshua, did he say ‘okay, we reached our destination, you are now free to break this commandment’? No. The Sabbath became not only a sign of Creation but also sanctification (Deut. 5:12-15). Even so the writer of Hebrews says that Jesus has given us true rest. Does this mean we are free to break the commandment? No, even as Deuteronomy it means that we should keep it as a sign of sanctification in Christ. It reaffirms it!. “There remains therefore a rest (Sabbatismos --Sabbath rest) to the people of God” Hebrews 4:9

Jesus did not break the Sabbath with His healing ministry. You say that Jesus opposed the Jews with his teachings of the Sabbath, but all Jesus was doing was returning the Sabbath to its original purpose. All your comments about how difficult it is to keep, or confusing the numerous restrictions are, etc. That is all baloney. All we have to do is “remember it to keep it holy”. Avoid uneccesary servile work. And gather to worship Jesus the Lord of the Sabbath.

You claim I am mistaken to teach people to keep God’s 4th commandment upon the ground that it is no longer binding, while you very Church invokes the same commandment to make you reverence man’s tradition. What if I asked you, what right does the Church have to inforce sunday observance? Do not all the catechisms make the Sabbath commadnment of the decalogue apply to sunday? Yes, of course.

Obviously I haven’t wrapped this thread up, but please respond to my post concerning the end of the Sabbath and the dawning of the first day. Mat. 28.1 and explain why you deny the plain words of scripture. Please refrain from filibustering.

 

[threadkiller]

herry:

Dear Brandon,

Please go over all my posts in this thread again, and anything which I have not adressed, please ask, and I would be more than happy address it.

I have no intention of spreading SDA propoganda. History repeates itself, and we are seeing America, the most powerful nation on earth since the Roman Empire, repeating its history. Jesus does not want everybody to become SDA. Jesus was us all to have the unity centered around the truth. He wants Sabbath reform in ALL Churches including protestant.

–herry

Herry, You just placed the Sabbath above Jesus. Jesus is the truth John 14.6, not the Sabbath. Please read the First Commandment and obey.
You should know about history repeating itself from personal experience. You imply that the Catholic Church is not of God because she dosen’t keep the Sabbath. Your ancestors said the same thing about Christ. John 9.16 “So some of the Pharisees (SDA) said ‘This man is not of God, because he does not keep the Sabbath’. But others said, ‘How can a sinful man do such signs?’. And there was a division among them”.
You call yourself a commandment keeper by making the Jewish Sabbath an idol and bearing false witness against the “Bride of Christ” by calling her a commandment breaker because she accepts and lives every verse of scripture. Not unlike your unjustified ancestor in the parable of the Pharisee(SDA) and the tax collector. Luke 18.11& 12 "The Pharisee(SDA) took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘Oh God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity, greedy, dishonest, adulterous, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and pay tithes on my whole income’ ".
I guess it’s true that the apple doesn’t fall far from the pharasaical tree.

 

[John_Taylor]

HERRY…or any other Sabbath Keeper…PLEASE, can you answer the following…or direct me to a SDA forum where I can receive an answer to this question:

How in Scripture (or by some other “Tradition” with Divine Authority ??) has God revealed “the date line”?

 

[SDA2RC]

herry:
Please go over all my posts in this thread again, and anything which I have not adressed, please ask…

• You have yet to show me where any man was commanded to keep the Sabbath before the Exodus, nor have you admitted that there was no command to keep the Sabbath prior to the Exodus in scripture.
• You have yet to show me any man who was commanded to keep the Sabbath AFTER Pentecost nor have you admitted clearly that no man is commanded to keep the Sabbath after Pentecost in scripture.
• You have not dealt with the Jewish understanding of the LAw and the Sabbath and why we should believe SDA’s who did not come on the scene until 1800 years after Christ vs. those who the Law was given to.
• You have not dealt with the fact that all early contemporary writings use the term “Lords Day” as referring to Sunday.
• You did not deal with all the scriptural verses I gave that showed that “commandments” mean a lot more than just 10 Commandments as you were always inserting.
• You did not deal with the verses that show that the 10 commandments were the Covenant, and the NT verses that I alluded to which show the old covenant was done away with.
• You did not respond back to my point about how the word “Man” does not mean all men in a strict sense, it is dependent upon the audience.
• You didn’t deal with my references to Church authority vs. your personal interpretation.
• You never told me if you consider yourself an infallible interpreter or scripture.
• You did not respond much to my point about the Sabbath being a type of the spiritual rest found in Christ.
• You did not respond to the point that scripture commands several regulations regarding the keeping of the Sabbath which SDA’s ignore.
• You did not respond to my point regarding the SDA false division of the law, which is no where to be found in scripture.
• You did not respond to my point about the Noachian laws
• You did not respond to Acts where the Apostles clearly state that they, nor the Holy Spirit, required Sabbath observance.
• You did not respond to the point that only circumcised where to keep the Sabbath, so the council of Jersusalem settled the Sabbath question when it settled the Circumcision question.

I could go on but you get the picture… on some of these issues you did respond with a flippant “well… I don’t care about X”, or “that’s enough for me” or something like that… but you failed to actually address the point and the evidence and support behind it. It is a “don’t confuse me with the facts” type attitude.

herry:

…History repeates itself, and we are seeing

America, the most powerful nation on earth since the Roman Empire, repeating its history. Jesus does not want everybody to become SDA. Jesus was us all to have the unity centered around the truth. He wants Sabbath reform in ALL Churches including protestant.
–herry

First, our position as “the most powerful nation on earth” is hardly without debate, China is also an extremely powerful nation, infact, with as spread as we are… it may be more powerful. It’s economy has been doing better and it military is much larger… so how are you measuring powerful? I think many American’s thing the USA is more powerful than it actually is… especially when trying to make it the “villan” as you are doing.

It is hardly the most powerful since the Roman Empire, there have been much more far reaching and longer reigning kingdoms in the world than the USA since the roman empire. The USA did not really make a large mark on the world scene until WWI, which was less than 100 years ago.

I agree with you about Jesus not wanting everyone to become SDA, he wants everyone to join the Church HE began while on earth… not a schismatic church that started 1800 years later. I agree with unity around truth too… in fact, that is one of the reason I reject the SDA Church, they are a schismatic organization, not a unifying organization. Christ does not want Sabbath reform, he want’s converted hearts to Him! You make the Sabbath issue larger than Christ Himself…

Brandon