The Sack of Constantinople

[ASimpleSinner]

[Moderator Note: The comment on the sack of Constantinople generated enough off-topic posts to create this new thread from them. Please http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=202722”]see here for the original discussion.]

I went to a Greek Orthodox Labor Day Festival this year where they had the church open for visitors. On display was a timeline of Orthodox history that did not include any of the major schisms that plagued Eastern sees…

(* From Dave Armstrong’s website, A Biblical Defense of Catholicism:

For example, the Eastern Church split off from Rome and the Catholic Church on at least six occasions before 1054:

The Arian schisms (343-98);
The controversy over St. John Chrysostom (404-415);
The Acacian schism (484-519);
Concerning Monothelitism (640-681);
Concerning Iconoclasm (726-87 and 815-43).

This adds up to 231 out of 500 years in schism (46% of the time)! In every case, Rome was on the right side of the debate in terms of what was later considered “orthodox” by both sides.

As a matter of fact, no mention was made of the Ottoman capture of Constantinople or the Russian Revolution!

(No mention either of the massacare of the Venetians or the abuse of Pope Saint Silverius or Pope Vigilius at the hands of Emperor Justinian I) But, I guess the “really important thing” does get mentioned on the timeline… the **“Sack of Constantinople by the Latins”. **

To the man, when speaking with Orthodox polemicists on this one (and sadly a few Eastern Catholics with chips on their shoulders large enough to dam a stream) when this issue is brought up (by them) the scathing and seething anger (which seems well cultivated) just pours out as though it just happened to them, and I was the one that did it!

So reallly this is a two-way street, and 42+ generations on, wagging fingers at “Latins” (and what a very different ethnic and national make-up the “Latins” are today - from Italy to Mexico, Uganda to Korea!!!) for some event 800 years ago they just as likely as not had NO ancesteral connection to is silly, bizarre and small minded.

 

[mgy100]

I have to tell you something, for many Orthodox Christians in the med. sea area, the sacking of Constantinople is one of those memories that is kept alive. Generally speaking, you might say the sacking was so horrific that the memory is kept alive these 800 years later.
I don’t think we can make value judgments on how other cultures/people remember something significant.
Is it relevant to say at a pulpit in a Slavic Church in the USA? I’m not so sure.
But we can at least acknowledge that the memory is still kept alive and important to many people, and regardless if you agree or disagree on the importance of the event and the memory of that event being passed down, you should still understand that not everyone lives and shares and has the same culture, life, historical/ethnic background…

 

[East_and_West]

I have to tell you something, for many Orthodox Christians in the med. sea area, the sacking of Constantinople is one of those memories that is kept alive. Generally speaking, you might say the sacking was so horrific that the memory is kept alive these 800 years later.
I don’t think we can make value judgments on how other cultures/people remember something significant.
Is it relevant to say at a pulpit in a Slavic Church in the USA? I’m not so sure.
But we can at least acknowledge that the memory is still kept alive and important to many people, and regardless if you agree or disagree on the importance of the event and the memory of that event being passed down, you should still understand that not everyone lives and shares and has the same culture, life, historical/ethnic background…

Seriously. 800 YEARS. No latin today sacked Constantinople. No Eastern Christian today was alive during the sack. Sorry, but people need to just get over it.

 

[Woodstock]

Seriously. 800 YEARS. No latin today sacked Constantinople. No Eastern Christian today was alive during the sack. Sorry, but people need to just get over it.

It is a part of their history and should never be purged from memory. The emotional connection will end only when they feel secure in knowing that it won’t happen again. It is hard to believe that when the “other side” doesn’t accept it as a part of history and address it. Deal with the issue, then they’ll be able to move beyond it. It is obviously important to them and is hurting their relationship with us. It doesn’t matter if you think it should, the fact is that it is. Telling them the statute of limitations has expired and they can’t bring it up isn’t helping that process.

 

[East_and_West]

It is a part of their history and should never be purged from memory. The emotional connection will end only when they feel secure in knowing that it won’t happen again. It is hard to believe that when the “other side” doesn’t accept it as a part of history and address it. Deal with the issue, then they’ll be able to move beyond it. It is obviously important to them and is hurting their relationship with us. It doesn’t matter if you think it should, the fact is that it is. Telling them the statute of limitations has expired and they can’t bring it up isn’t helping that process.

This is simply silly. Look, i am of Spanish decent. The moores invaded Spain and occupied parts it for hundreds of years. The fact is that I am over it. I don’t hold it against modern muslims. I have moved well beyond it. I was not alive at the time. Modern muslims were not alive at the time. So, how can I have any claim to injury? The statute of limitations has definitely run out, at least for enlightened human beings.

Similarly, Byzantine Christians should be over the sack of Constantinople by now. Any claim to it is absurd as no one alive today was alive then. We “Latins” are over the massacre that was committed against our predecessors in Constantinople by byzantines in 1182 AD.

 

[Woodstock]

What is “simply silly” is you claiming a higher degree of “enlightenment” over the “absurd” Byzantine Christians. It is also ironic that you would use that word to imply your superior knowledge somehow brings you closer to God.

Go to the News forum and you’ll find plenty of your fellow “Latins” who aren’t over the Moorish Conquest of Spain and hold it against Muslims today. Your time might be better spent telling *them *of their “silliness” because it more directly reflects badly on you, especially when you are here saying that no “Latins” would be “absurd” enough to put forth such “simply silly” and “unenlightened” claims.

 

[East_and_West]

What is “simply silly” is you claiming a higher degree of “enlightenment” over the “absurd” Byzantine Christians. It is also ironic that you would use that word to imply your superior knowledge somehow brings you closer to God.

Go to the News forum and you’ll find plenty of your fellow “Latins” who aren’t over the Moorish Conquest of Spain and hold it against Muslims today. Your time might be better spent telling *them *of their “silliness” because it more directly reflects badly on you, especially when you are here saying that no “Latins” would be “absurd” enough to put forth such “simply silly” and “unenlightened” claims.

When was the last time you heard a Latin complain about the masscre of Latins in Constantinople in 1182? I don’t complain about it. I don’t know any who do.

 

[Woodstock]

When was the last time you heard a Latin complain about the masscre of Latins in Constantinople in 1182? I don’t complain about it. I don’t know any who do.

When was the last time you heard a Muslim complain about the massacre of Spaniards and Portuguese starting at the Rock of Gibraltar in 711? There are plenty of Latins complaining about it now.

Why does the lack of Latin complaints somehow invalidate Byzantine experiences? Does the lack of Muslim complaints somehow invalidate Latin experiences in the Moorish Conquest?

In answer to your question, about 3 months ago in real life. I heard quite a few Latins complaining about the fourth crusade in the last month online. It looks like you are complaining about it now that it is convenient for you, too.

 

[Edmac]

This is getting tiresome.

Edmac

 

[mgy100]

It is a part of their history and should never be purged from memory. The emotional connection will end only when they feel secure in knowing that it won’t happen again. It is hard to believe that when the “other side” doesn’t accept it as a part of history and address it. Deal with the issue, then they’ll be able to move beyond it. It is obviously important to them and is hurting their relationship with us. It doesn’t matter if you think it should, the fact is that it is. Telling them the statute of limitations has expired and they can’t bring it up isn’t helping that process.

Thank you Woodstock. It is hard to understand why they still hold onto the memory from an American viewpoint. Once the media stops reporting about it, we forget about it. I’m thinking maybe they hold onto this because it was a first in a long series of persecutions that still exist today in Constantinople.
The fact remains that it is something people remember to this day. One person saying “get over it” will not make them do so.

Hamburglar, only time and experience will help you discern and to sort of “get away” from those sorts of conversations that you experienced.

 

[Ahimsa]

Thank you Woodstock. It is hard to understand why they still hold onto the memory from an American viewpoint. Once the media stops reporting about it, we forget about it. I’m thinking maybe they hold onto this because it was a first in a long series of persecutions that still exist today in Constantinople.
The fact remains that it is something people remember to this day. One person saying “get over it” will not make them do so.

Hamburglar, only time and experience will help you discern and to sort of “get away” from those sorts of conversations that you experienced.

Telling the Orthodox to “forget” about Constantinople, is like telling the Jews to “forget” about Jerusalem, or Southerners to “forget” about Appomattox. Ain’t gonna happen.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Seriously. 800 YEARS. No latin today sacked Constantinople. No Eastern Christian today was alive during the sack. Sorry, but people need to just get over it.

The sack directly led to the fall of New Rome, which had withstood attacks for nearly a millenium. Her fall was greated with shock in the West too.

When the Cross goes back on Hagia Sophia, we’ll get over it.

 

[ronyodish]

I always recommend forgiveness on this issue. It may be a hard thing to do, but as Christians, we are told by Jesus that this is how we are to pray:

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

I recommend also:

---

Matt.18

[21] Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?”
[22] Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.​

As Christians, we are not to hold any grudges in our hearts towards our neighbors. The Greeks pray: Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner. This prayer should purify one’s heart of any prideful arrogance, and instill in people the desire to forgive anyone at any time, past, present, and future, because we are all sinners and in need of God’s mercy.

Holding a grudge in one’s heart while praying the Lord’s Prayer is hypocrisy, because such a person is asking for God’s forgiveness for his sins while he is unwilling to forgive his brother’s sins. We are not Jews or Muslims who take an “eye for an eye” perspective. We are Christians! It is a scandal and a sin not to forgive.

And if by chance the sack of Constantinople has made the Greeks to perceive the Latins as enemies, rather than brothers who have sinned against them, then: “Love your enemies”. Love those who hurt you.

The Latins must continue to ask for forgiveness, because what they have done was a serious sin against their brothers. But until the Greeks are willing to shed and purify their hearts from this grudge, they will always be interiorly wounded from this incident, will always distrust their Latin brothers, and the Holy Spirit’s call to forgive will aways peck at their conscience and hearts whether or not they care to admit it. It is spiritual prideful arrogance to resist forgiving our neighbors.

God bless,

Rony

 

[ASimpleSinner]

The sack directly led to the fall of New Rome, which had withstood attacks for nearly a millenium. Her fall was greated with shock in the West too.

When the Cross goes back on Hagia Sophia, we’ll get over it.

A textbook example of smug yet expedient polemic.

The sack of Constantinople in 1204 lead to the the 80-200K Ottomans defeating the 6K (2K of them foreign - a significant portion Venetian and Geonese) men defending Constantinople in 1453?

(The threats of the Bulgarians and Serbians notwistanding…)

In turn, always and everywhere good polemics can lead to neatly placing of blame at the feet of the west.

 

[Alexius]

A textbook example of smug yet expedient polemic.

The sack of Constantinople in 1204 lead to the the 80-200K Ottomans defeating the 6K (2K of them foreign - a significant portion Venetian and Geonese) men defending Constantinople in 1453?

(The threats of the Bulgarians and Serbians notwistanding…)

In turn, always and everywhere good polemics can lead to neatly placing of blame at the feet of the west.

I disagree. Though it is not the isolated event of the Sack of Constantinople that lead to the fall, it certainly was the last straw. With the unjust sack, Constantinople lost its last defense against the Muslim invaders. Why are people still upset? How would you feel if other Christians, who were once your allies, came to your town and killed your family and destroyed your home? Then, they violated the LORD by entering His house with bloody swords and stole your most prized possessions and relics, only to put them on display in their own churches. Please, have some sympathy…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I disagree. Though it is not the isolated event of the Sack of Constantinople that lead to the fall, it certainly was the last straw. With the unjust sack, Constantinople lost its last defense against the Muslim invaders. Why are people still upset? How would you feel if other Christians, who were once your allies, came to your town and killed your family and destroyed your home? Then, they violated the LORD by entering His house with bloody swords and stole your most prized possessions and relics, only to put them on display in their own churches. Please, have some sympathy…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Don’t paint me as the unsympathetic one here. I have sympathy, but it is possible to exhaust it. Appealing to outrage (as you just now did) 800 years later does little to change anything. Rather, intended or not, seems like gloating in the moral superiority of righteous victimhood.

Rather simply, I am not the one whose feet this can be laid at… I am rather certain I don’t know there is any “Latin” who can be blamed 800 years later.

That this matter carries a great deal of polemical weight seems rather more than a conincidence or inconsequential when it comes to discussing why it is still discussed in the manner it is.

 

[Petergee]

It is a part of their history and should never be purged from memory. The emotional connection will end only when they feel secure in knowing that it won’t happen again. It is hard to believe that when the “other side” doesn’t accept it as a part of history and address it. Deal with the issue, then they’ll be able to move beyond it. It is obviously important to them and is hurting their relationship with us. It doesn’t matter if you think it should, the fact is that it is. Telling them the statute of limitations has expired and they can’t bring it up isn’t helping that process.

What on earth are you talking about? I’ve never heard of any Catholic denying that it happened and refusing to accept it as part of history. Let alone threatening to do it again! On the contrary there seem to be a lot of Westerners beating themselves up about it.
Nobody is telling the EOCs “they can’t bring it up”. The OP was simply complaining about the way that many EOCs seem to talk about nothing else but a highly coloured and one-sided version of it, omitting other important episodes of history and even when discussing topics which are quite unrelated.

 

[Petergee]

I disagree. Though it is not the isolated event of the Sack of Constantinople that lead to the fall, it certainly was the last straw. With the unjust sack, Constantinople lost its last defense against the Muslim invaders.

How nice of those Moslems to refrain from occupying this totally defenceless city for another 250 years!

Why are people still upset? How would you feel if other Christians, who were once your allies, came to your town and killed your family and destroyed your home? Then, they violated the LORD by entering His house with bloody swords and stole your most prized possessions and relics, only to put them on display in their own churches. Please, have some sympathy…

Well if it was done by outlaws who were only nominally under the rule of my neighbour, who did everything in his power to stop the atrocties before, during and after the event, I certainly wouldn’t blame the neighbouring ruler for it. Let alone blame his successor and his subjects 800 years later, and bring it up at every discussion with them on totally unrelated topics as if it somehow automatically meant that by default they are on the wrong side of every dispute.

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

i have a hard time forgiving the slavs for invading noricum in the 6th century. they took our land and forced their slavic culture on my people. it is something we should never forget.

also, the gauls subjugated us before that. it is a sad story.

 

[Alexius]

Don’t paint me as the unsympathetic one here. I have sympathy, but it is possible to exhaust it. Appealing to outrage (as you just now did) 800 years later does little to change anything. Rather, intended or not, seems like gloating in the moral superiority of righteous victimhood.

Rather simply, I am not the one whose feet this can be laid at… I am rather certain I don’t know there is any “Latin” who can be blamed 800 years later.

That this matter carries a great deal of polemical weight seems rather more than a conincidence or inconsequential when it comes to discussing why it is still discussed in the manner it is.

Huh? Outrage? No outrage was done on my side of the computer. I’m just stating the facts as they relate to the topic. My last sentence was perhaps a bad one and I am sorry that I did not reword it better. I agree with your last point, except that this does carry weight when it comes to relations between the East and the West (obviously). It has taken a long time for the East to receive that which was stolen…That the Pope did later condemn the act is clear. That more could have been done than let the anger fester for hundreds of years, yes.

How nice of those Moslems to refrain from occupying this totally defenceless city for another 250 years! Well if it was done by outlaws who were only nominally under the rule of my neighbour, who did everything in his power to stop the atrocties before, during and after the event, I certainly wouldn’t blame the neighbouring ruler for it. Let alone blame his successor and his subjects 800 years later, and bring it up at every discussion with them on totally unrelated topics as if it somehow automatically meant that by default they are on the wrong side of every dispute.

Well, since I’m Catholic, I don’t think there’s much I can say. I’m apparently on the guilty side, too. With regards to your first comment, I meant that the last strong defense of Constantinople was destroyed. It was still defended, but by such a miniscule amount of men that the Muslim Armies had very little difficulty getting in. I don’t justify the actions of the Crusaders, though. It was wrong what they did.

i have a hard time forgiving the slavs for invading noricum in the 6th century. they took our land and forced their slavic culture on my people. it is something we should never forget.

also, the gauls subjugated us before that. it is a sad story.

Yeah, I have a hard time forgiving the Germans for what they did to the Slavs during WWII. They killed my people…

Honestly, we could play the blame game until kingdom come as both sides have had their political crueties (I know you are semi-joking with your statement), but I don’t think any of us are up to doing that. I was merely stating the event as I see it and being honest about how others see it. Catholic, Orthodox makes no difference to me. That it was wrong does. That both sides regret their mistakes is good, but that the event took place and more than just feelings were hurt, well…