The Saint within

[soma]

**

T**here are a couple big problems with the statement “one should not deny the lowly ego it’s highest entitlement, which is to dive now and again into this special air of the saint that we inwardly admire.”

One problem with that statement is that it suggests we admire ourselves. True contemplation is focused on admiring and loving God, not on admiring and loving ourselves. **

**

We are not saints so I guess you are saying we should not admire them because that is admiring ourselves. Are you saying we should not strive to be like the saints because we are only flattering ourselves. Then we should destroy all the statues in our churches.

 

[water]

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We are not saints …

I was wondering what the title of this thread means “The Saint within”?

Thanks!

 

[beckycmarie]

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We are not saints so I guess you are saying we should not admire them because that is admiring ourselves. Are you saying we should not strive to be like the saints because we are only flattering ourselves. Then we should destroy all the statues in our churches.

Perhaps I am confused and am reading this wrong. This thread is called “the saint within” and that statement says “to dive now and again into this special air of the saint that we inwardly admire.”

To me, that says we are to admire our “inner saint.” I didn’t see how that statement applies to admiring the actual Saints when the thread is called “the Saint within.”

 

[InLight247]

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We are not saints so I guess you are saying we should not admire them because that is admiring ourselves. Are you saying we should not strive to be like the saints because we are only flattering ourselves. Then we should destroy all the statues in our churches.

I still cannot see when and where Becky said anything to do with your quote above. What she is saying all the time is to focus on Jesus and the indwelling Holy Spirit, not to focus and admire our inner “self”. She did not say anything about not to strive to be like saints. See post 42 and 46.

This is just my very objective understanding by reading the thread.
And I hope by making my objective observation and expressing my honest opinion will not be taken as any harshness. Because it is not. I want to make this clear since I realize sometimes communication is very hard, especially online communication among people from different background and at different levels of spirituality.

 

[DBT]

Perhaps I am confused and am reading this wrong. This thread is called “the saint within” and that statement says “to dive now and again into this special air of the saint that we inwardly admire.”

Perhaps it means the highest aspiration of the soul is to be fully united with the Indwelling Trinity living in the deepest center of our soul (St. John/Living Flame) . . . thus realizing our true potential to be the Saints we are meant to be?

Or maybe not

I wonder if language is going to be able to get us through this. Good job, though, to all who are trying . . .

Dave.

 

[soma]

We admire the saints who are human and we are human too so we can experience what they experience too. I like what was stated previously “The highest aspiration of the soul is to be fully united with the Indwelling Trinity living in the deepest center of our soul (St. John/Living Flame) . . . thus realizing our true potential to be the Saints we are meant to be”

Becky said, “One problem with that statement is that it suggests we admire ourselves.”

If we admire, strive to be like a saint or try to have the same spiritual experience as a saint, it does not take away from our love for Jesus. It does not mean we flatter ourselves either.

May we all have a saintly experience in our life time.

 

[InLight247]

We admire the saints who are human and we are human too so we can experience what they experience too. I like what was stated previously “The highest aspiration of the soul is to be fully united with the Indwelling Trinity living in the deepest center of our soul (St. John/Living Flame) . . . thus realizing our true potential to be the Saints we are meant to be”

Becky said, “One problem with that statement is that it suggests we admire ourselves.”

What Becky said was not pointing to what St. John said. We all agree with what Saint John said.

Becky was referring to the website you recommended, the website many have doubt about. Even Dave mentioned there are obvious red flags. See post # 37

This needs to be clarified otherwise, for readers who did not carefully read the thread will be misled.

 

[DBT]

But is the response in post #66 in any way in conflict with the good things Becky had to say in #60?

I think it has been well established that the website is . . . well . . . provocative at the very least from an orthodox Catholic perspective. That being said, Soma seems very drawn to mystical concepts that do have a firm foundation in our tradition and she seems open to listening to the truths our Saints have to say.

So does she really have to defend the site? Or can we simply try to point to where in our mystical tradition the ideas that appeal to her do and do not have a link?

God willing, if we continue to encourage her, she’ll be pouring through John and Teresa in no time and running rings around us all

Dave.

 

[beckycmarie]

If we admire, strive to be like a saint or try to have the same spiritual experience as a saint, it does not take away from our love for Jesus. It does not mean we flatter ourselves either.

May we all have a saintly experience in our life time.

And I don’t disagree with you on that point.

It’s just that the title of this thread, “the saint within,” combined with your statement about “the saint we inwardly admire” made it sound, to me, that you were saying that the “saint we inwardly admire” is our own soul.

I guess I’m still confused about what “the saint within” is.

 

[beckycmarie]

God willing, if we continue to encourage her, she’ll be pouring through John and Teresa in no time and running rings around us all

Dave.

That would be awesome.

Soma, if you want to hear what the saints have to say on this topic, here are some suggestions:

St. Teresa:
The Interior Castle
The Way of Perfection

St. John of the Cross:
Ascent of Mount Carmel
Dark Night of the Soul

 

[DBT]

. . . and expanding upon Becky’s thoughts, here’s a taste of how I interpret the idea of “the Saint within:”
St John of the Cross:

O living flame of love
How tenderly you wound
The deepest center of my soul!
Since now no more you afflict me,
Bring all, if you will, to a happy ending;
Break the web of this sweet encounter.

And now, selected commentary from St. John describing this “deepest center:”
St. John of the Cross Commentary:

9)”the deepest center”:

This feast of the Holy Spirit takes place in the substance of the soul, where neither the devil, nor the world, nor sense can enter. God, because of the soul’s great purity, communicates himself frequently, abundantly, generously. The soul simply receives. This is its only occupation – to will, and consent gladly to God’s action; all its movements become divine. There are other centers in the soul, less profound than the “deepest center” we speak of here.

1. In speaking of other “centers of the soul," we must exclude all notions of space, or parts. There is no inward or outward, no length or depth; the intensity illumines all equally.
2. By the “deepest center” is meant the limit of an object’s power and force of operation in accordance with its nature. Fire or rock have a natural point of limitation which they will attain but cannot pass beyond. A rock is drawn by its natural power and inclination to its deepest center by the force of gravity. If it should arrive at the center of the earth, it would be at rest – in its “deepest center.”
3. The soul’s center is God. When, with all the strength and power of its being, it will have reached the limit point, its final and deepest center in God , it will know, love, and enjoy God with all its might. Until it has reached that point, it can still advance, and is not satisfied. At any point it can be said to be in its center, but not in its deepest center.

We could go on and on like this, but to be honest I’m running short on time But this, at least, gives some glimpse as to the types of things I see when I look beyond the words that confine us all.

If we could but learn to live in our “deepest center” we would no doubt experience the “Saint within.”

Becky, great links!

Dave.

 

[InLight247]

I think it has been well established that the website is . . . well . . . provocative at the very least from an orthodox Catholic perspective.
Dave.

I am glad to see there is a clear agreement there.
And I am glad to see this thread finally goes to the direction it ought to be. The deepest center of the soul, that innermost self, is where the Holy Spirit dwells.
And

For where there is true love of God, love of self and of one’s own things finds no entry.(St. John Dark Night, Book Two, Chapter 21, paragraph 10)

Therefore, the saint within is not a self-made or self-admired saint but the self that lost in God and transformed by God. Yes, by looking inward this way, let self go and let God, there is a potential saint in each of us.

…nothing created or imagined can serve the intellect as a proper means for union with God, and how all that can be grasped by the intellect would serve as an obstacle rather than a means if a person were to become attached to it. (St. John,The Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book two, Chapter 8)

I think we are on the same page.

 

[beckycmarie]

Here’s a quick and painless overview of Christian Mysticism from EWTN. I’ve found it to be excellent and helpful information.

Mysticism In General

If you want detailed information after reading that, I recommend Spiritual Theology by Father Jordan Aumann. You can read the whole book online here:

Spiritual Theology

 

[JReducation]

What is being promoted by that website is a New Age approach that is very UN-Christian. BEWARE!

If you want to learn about true Christian mysticism/contemplation, I recommend Fire Within by Fr. Thomas Dubay.

Fr. Dubay’s book is excellent. Add to that collection The Disciple and the Master by Eric Doyle, OFM and The Way of Perfection by Teresa of Avila

JR

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I was fortunate in the 1860’s to be taught by Father Thomas Dubea. He was my Philosophy nad Theodocy professor. He really knew then and still now knows what he is speaking about. He is one of the most educated men I have met. Not that he was just educated, he know how to communicate it. Our book for Theodocy was the one written by Tanqueray (sp) on “The Spiritual Life” I still have it - somewhere.
prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[InLight247]

I was fortunate in the 1860’s to be taught by Father Thomas Dubea. He was my Philosophy nad Theodocy professor. He really knew then and still now knows what he is speaking about. He is one of the most educated men I have met. Not that he was just educated, he know how to communicate it. Our book for Theodocy was the one written by Tanqueray (sp) on “The Spiritual Life” I still have it - somewhere.
prayers and blessings
Deacon Ed B

I think you mean 1960’s?

Fr. Dubay’s teaching in his books is no doubt wonderful! You are very fortunate to be his student in person.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I think you mean 1960’s?

Fr. Dubay’s teaching in his books is no doubt wonderful! You are very fortunate to be his student in person.

I think you might be right. In no way do I want to be the oldest person in the world. I want to be home long before then. This is definitely one case where the student is no where near the master.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[soma]

You are a good student because you remember the lesson of humility well. You know the spirituality of the master so you know spirituality.