The Salvation Army (and is it a church)

[LoyalViews]

I’ve stumbled upon this Jimmy Akin article from 2013 regarding the Salvation Army.

In it, Akin accused the Salvation Army a non-Christian religion on the premise that they do not practise the sacraments, namely baptism. Yet, the Wesleyan idea on sanctification and holiness paint a broad picture of sacramentality in day to day life, and the Army stresses holiness in every action and going forth and doing the most good in the world. They believe in the Bible, and their meetings are Christo-centric to the core and most have an almost ecstatic love for the Precious Blood of Jesus.

My question is this: how can an organization such as this, which was founded by a Methodist, and so on be regarded as non-Christian. The fervour of the Salvation Army is a genuine love for Christ. Is the Salvation Army an ecclesial community or has this one thing placed them outside the realm of Christendom as Akin says?

 

[twf]

From a Catholic perspective, the Salvation Army is not, objectively speaking, a Church; nor, for that matter, are the various Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, or Pentecostal bodies. A Church by definition is a community of the baptized under a bishop in apostolic succession…a Church is Eucharistic by its very nature.
Is the Salvation Army an ecclesial community? I’m not sure. Objectively speaking, individual Salvationists are not, from a Catholic perspective, Christians. A Christian is baptized. From a Catholic perspective this is an objective, ontological reality. Baptism transforms a person…a person becomes a Christian by being baptized. That being said, I am sure that many Salvationists have an implicit baptism of desire (that is, if they truly understood that Christ commands baptism they would accept it).

 

[Blue_Rose]

Here in Australia they are a Protestant Christian denomination and have worship centres that people attend on Sundays. I’ve never attended but I know it’s very music based. They run a lot of programs to help the disadvantaged.

 

[twf]

Here in Australia they are a Protestant Christian denomination and have worship centres that people attend on Sundays. I’ve never attended but I know it’s very music based. They run a lot of programs to help the disadvantaged.

Yes, they do good work and they profess faith in Christ - but they do not confer baptism and thus, from a Catholic perspective, are not objectively, ontologically speaking, Christians.

 

[Rosebud77]

I will not hear a word againts the Sally Army. They “feed the hungry and clothe the naked as Jesus.” Which sadly is more that many do.

My family work alongside them in Canada and they are pure gold. Same here in Ireland. I remember many times being cheered by their music, one Christmas outside a hospital ward window…

 

[LoyalViews]

I will not hear a word againts the Sally Army. They “feed the hungry and clothe the naked as Jesus.” Which sadly is more that many do.

My family work alongside them in Canada and they are pure gold. Same here in Ireland. I remember many times being cheered by their music, one Christmas outside a hospital ward window…

These are my feelings as well. I have witnessed their officers and soldiers go without, themselves, to help drug addicts and alcoholics.

 

[twf]

I will not hear a word againts the Sally Army. They “feed the hungry and clothe the naked as Jesus.” Which sadly is more that many do.

My family work alongside them in Canada and they are pure gold. Same here in Ireland. I remember many times being cheered by their music, one Christmas outside a hospital ward window…

No one on this thread has said a word against them. That they do good work is immaterial to the question. The term “church” and the term “Christian” have very precise, very specific meanings in a Catholic context. The Salvation Army does not meet this criteria. It’s not a judgment of their worthiness… It’s an objective reality as per Catholic theology / canon law.
Of course as I said earlier, I imagine many are holy people who have an implicit baptism of desire. That, however, is a judgment only God can make.

 

[Dorothy]

No one on this thread has said a word against them. That they do good work is immaterial to the question. The term “church” and the term “Christian” have very precise, very specific meanings in a Catholic context. The Salvation Army does not meet this criteria. It’s not a judgment of their worthiness… It’s an objective reality as per Catholic theology / canon law.
Of course as I said earlier, I imagine many are holy people who have an implicit baptism of desire. That, however, is a judgment only God can make.

I thank you for your clear explanations.

 

[Rosebud77]

No one on this thread has said a word against them. That they do good work is immaterial to the question. The term “church” and the term “Christian” have very precise, very specific meanings in a Catholic context. The Salvation Army does not meet this criteria. It’s not a judgment of their worthiness… It’s an objective reality as per Catholic theology / canon law.
Of course as I said earlier, I imagine many are holy people who have an implicit baptism of desire. That, however, is a judgment only God can make.

I see this as judgemental in the extreme. And narrow minded in the extreme.Makes me very sad .

 

[MartinJordan]

What is the SA view on Jesus’s Baptism? Just asking. I don’t know.

MJ

 

[porthos11]

I see this as judgemental in the extreme. And narrow minded in the extreme.Makes me very sad .

And yet it is the truth. There’s that j-word again.

No baptism===no Christianity.

It’s as simple as that. This is true for Salvation Army, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and anyone else. They may be among the finest people around, but if they are not baptized, they are not Christian.

People do not become Christians through good works. They become Christians by baptism.

 

[twf]

I see this as judgemental in the extreme. And narrow minded in the extreme.Makes me very sad .

Judgemental? The only judgment I made was that many individual Salvationists are no doubt holy people with sincerely follow Christ as they best know how…and may very well have an implicit baptism of desire.
Other than that I repeated the Church’s binding teaching that you as a Catholic must adhere to…namely, the definition of “Church” and the definition of “Christian”. It isn’t a judgment of worth or ultimate salvation…its objective reality as defined by the infallible magisterium of the Church. Millions of baptized Christians are horrible people. Millions of non-baptized non-Christians are wonderful, sincere people who most likely have grace operating in their lives whether they realize it or not.

In short, the only personal opinions I offered were very positive in regards to the Salvation Army. What you’re taking issue with is the Church’s definitive teaching.

 

[benjohnson]

Theologically, from an Lutheran standpoint, the SA is a hot mess of almost heretical nuttiness. In addition, Jimmy Akin is a reasonable and educated man and I would trust his reading of the situation.

That said, in my opinion, I find that the members of the SA live very much as Christ would have us live, and they remind me that I need to do a much better job of responding to the grace given to me.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

And yet it is the truth. There’s that j-word again.

No baptism===no Christianity.

It’s as simple as that. This is true for Salvation Army, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and anyone else. They may be among the finest people around, but if they are not baptized, they are not Christian.

People do not become Christians through good works. They become Christians by baptism.

All this is according to Catholic belief. If you ask a member of the Salvation Army (or LDS, or the JW church) they will say unequivocally that they are Christian. If that is how they self-define, then so be it.

I do believe that it’s perfectly appropriate to say ‘Catholics teach this or that…’ but you’re going to get a lot of push back from self identifying Christians if you make a blanket statement on who and who is not a Christian person of faith.

 

[twf]

All this is according to Catholic belief. If you ask a member of the Salvation Army (or LDS, or the JW church) they will say unequivocally that they are Christian. If that is how they self-define, then so be it.

I do believe that it’s perfectly appropriate to say ‘Catholics teach this or that…’ but you’re going to get a lot of push back from self identifying Christians if you make a blanket statement on who and who is not a Christian person of faith.

I know this wasn’t directed specifically at me…but I was pretty careful to state that Salvationists are not Christians from an objective, Catholic theological / canonical perspective… and that in my personal opinion many individual Salvationists are holy people who sincerely seek Christ and likely benefit from an implicit baptism of desire (i.e. would be baptized if they understood it to be the Lord’s command) and may thus, by God’s grace, benefit from many of the graces of baptism. Even so this view was dismissed as being “judgmental” and “narrow minded”.

 

[oldgraymare2]

I will not hear a word againts the Sally Army. They “feed the hungry and clothe the naked as Jesus.” Which sadly is more that many do.

My family work alongside them in Canada and they are pure gold. Same here in Ireland. I remember many times being cheered by their music, one Christmas outside a hospital ward window…

Yes, they do really great work in my community as well.

At one of the parishes that I used to attend, the pastor there said that they were considered a church. That’s all I know.

 

[LoyalViews]

I know this wasn’t directed specifically at me…but I was pretty careful to state that Salvationists are not Christians from an objective, Catholic theological / canonical perspective… and that in my personal opinion many individual Salvationists are holy people who sincerely seek Christ and likely benefit from an implicit baptism of desire (i.e. would be baptized if they understood it to be the Lord’s command) and may thus, by God’s grace, benefit from many of the graces of baptism. Even so this view was dismissed as being “judgmental” and “narrow minded”.

I understand that, and it’s not something open to discussion either because it’s simple theology.

I have attended a meeting in the past with a friend. It was something I did out of curiosity, as I was interested in what those men and women with the nice uniforms were up to on Sundays. It was an evening service, one they call the “Salvation Meeting” as opposed to their morning service, the “Holiness Meeting.” One man prayed for “new baptism”, and I think that’s where I was confused.

They dedicate every baby to serve God, and make the parents promise to bring their child up in a Christian manner and so on. Would this be a development of the Salvation Army, whose intention was never to become a denomination in the beginning but rather a para-church organization that was more dedicated to social work and holiness in common life?

The Salvation Army isn’t opposed to sacraments either, and I know that a member of the Army is allowed to seek baptism in another denomination if they so desire.

Allow me to quote something I found here.

The Salvation Army has never said it is wrong to use sacraments, nor does it deny that other Christians receive grace from God through using them. Rather, the Army believes that it is possible to live a holy life and receive the grace of God without the use of physical sacraments and that they should not be regarded as an essential part of becoming a Christian.

Salvationists see the sacraments as an outward sign of an inward experience, and it is the inward experience that is the most important thing.

It should be noted that The Salvation Army did not cease to use the sacraments because of any prejudices it had against them or from any desire to be ‘different’. The decision to discontinue their use was a gradual process in the minds of the Army’s founders.

…furthermore, Salvationists are not prevented from being baptised in other churches should they so desire.

So here lies the distinction between practise and understanding. I recall also from this meeting I attended that the officer spoke of conversion, and that conversion being baptism. They have this tradition of a mercy seat where anyone can go at any point during the service to seek prayer with the officer (the minister). I would imagine that the Salvation Army would view an instance of conversion, a turning of ones heart to Jesus, as baptism (implicit as we call it).

I hope this is useful to furthering our discussion. One other thing is that the article above makes reference to the Quakers as well. It had never occurred to me, but the Society of Friends practises no form of sacrament.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

And yet it is the truth. There’s that j-word again.

No baptism===no Christianity.

It’s as simple as that. This is true for Salvation Army, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and anyone else. They may be among the finest people around, but if they are not baptized, they are not Christian.

People do not become Christians through good works. They become Christians by baptism.

Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses both practice baptism. You can argue about its validity, but IMO your post is very misleading.

 

[Contarini]

I’ve stumbled upon this Jimmy Akin article from 2013 regarding the Salvation Army.

In it, Akin accused the Salvation Army a non-Christian religion on the premise that they do not practise the sacraments, namely baptism. Yet, the Wesleyan idea on sanctification and holiness paint a broad picture of sacramentality in day to day life, and the Army stresses holiness in every action and going forth and doing the most good in the world. They believe in the Bible, and their meetings are Christo-centric to the core and most have an almost ecstatic love for the Precious Blood of Jesus.

My question is this: how can an organization such as this, which was founded by a Methodist, and so on be regarded as non-Christian. The fervour of the Salvation Army is a genuine love for Christ. Is the Salvation Army an ecclesial community or has this one thing placed them outside the realm of Christendom as Akin says?

Akin’s logic is clear–they’re not baptized and so they’re not Christians. I think that’s too simplistic and harsh, but I do see the logic.

My grandmother was never baptized either (she grew up in a Holiness church very influenced by the Salvation Army and with a similar attitude to the sacraments, and in fact she and my grandfather ran a mission organization in Britain that was trying to recapture the spirit of the early Salvation Army). Her funeral was conducted by a Methodist minister using the United Methodist liturgy which says, “As X put on Christ in baptism, so may she share in the glory of his resurrection,” or something like that. My wife turned to me and said, “she was never baptized, was she?” But we didn’t say anything to the pastor!

 

[LoyalViews]

Akin’s logic is clear–they’re not baptized and so they’re not Christians. I think that’s too simplistic and harsh, but I do see the logic.

My grandmother was never baptized either (she grew up in a Holiness church very influenced by the Salvation Army and with a similar attitude to the sacraments, and in fact she and my grandfather ran a mission organization in Britain that was trying to recapture the spirit of the early Salvation Army). Her funeral was conducted by a Methodist minister using the United Methodist liturgy which says, “As X put on Christ in baptism, so may she share in the glory of his resurrection,” or something like that. My wife turned to me and said, “she was never baptized, was she?” But we didn’t say anything to the pastor!

And here is a conundrum because for all intents and purposes your grandmother was (is still) a Christian. Christ knows His own and we hope and pray that she is with Him now.

Funny you should say that, it wouldn’t happen to be the Primitive Salvationist movement was it?