the same thing

[RyanBlack]

I’m not belittling the Orthodox at all, it’s just that myself, my parents, grandparents etc were always taught that there is only one true church, and that church is the Catholic Church, and only the Catholic Church. Such sentiments are to this day still echoed by a few Catholic priests from the pulpit (and I’m not referring to the SSPX) and it is what some of us still believe. Yet, in many circles, online forums, such beliefs are now condemned as triumphant, arrogant, hateful, and outdated.

Well, the particular way in which those beliefs are communicated often is “triumphant, arrogant, hateful, and outdated.” Furthermore, those who communicate these beliefs often do so with a complete lack of regard for the path that has been taken by the Church they profess to be the only true Church with respect to ecumenical dialogue with those churches (yes, they are indeed true churches, as taught by the one true Church) of the East that are not in communion with the Pope of Rome.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I just think that it is extremely dangerous to get into the “going where I can grow spiritually” mindset. If I truly believed that it was all the same whether I was Orthodox or Catholic, then my life would have been a lot easier over the past year or so. But in reading the history of the Church, I simply cannot convince myself that my personal opinion of my spiritual growth is all that important. In debates over schisms and disagreements in the first millenium, I have never encountered any Father saying “you’ve just got to go where you feel nourished.”

I also think we have to be careful not to draw an overly extreme dichotomy. We don’t have to say that one side or the other is condemned simply due to the communion they are in. But it doesn’t follow that it doesn’t matter if someone leaves the Catholic communion. Again, this is something that I think most Orthodox and Catholics would agree on. You can’t enter one church without breaking communion with the other.

If it was the same then obviously you need to stay where you are. Why move if you’re not getting anything out of it? I’m pretty sure those who move between Catholicism and Orthodoxy do not make the move so lightly, unlike those who leave for Protestant circles. It takes a lot of research, contemplation and prayer to make the move. I cannot see how God would not be a part of that decision if you go through this process.

And many former Catholics will tell you that they experienced zero spiritual growth until they became Evangelical Protestants.

And it may have been true for them. I have met people who became wonderful Christians when they became Evangelicals, and very nominal when they were Catholics. Not that I will endorse becoming Evangelical, but I also do not see how better can they be saved by remaining nominal Catholics. While I agree that something is lacking in being outside of the Apostolic Churches, I come to realize that the view of “Protestants are all wrong” is also false. They merely do not have the fullness of truth, not completely bereft of it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

When a bishop for example isn’t doing what is proper to him in his diocese, then the pope can step in as is proper to his office which covers the entire Church, to make immediate changes
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/controversial-australian-bishop-sacked-by-pope-benedict-xvi/

Actually, Vatican I states that the Pope doesn’t need a reason to step in. He has immediate ordinary power in all dioceses/eparchies of the Church.

 

[steve_b]

Why should I fear for their souls? There is nothing I can do about. As Christ said, leave our troubles to Him. The only soul I can worry about is my own.

Here’s something to consider. Jesus named 2 commandments that all the law and prophets hang on.

(paraphrased)

1. • Love God with everything you have
   • Love your neighbor as yourself
   iow, If I didn’t have concern for my neighbor’s soul for example, I’ve actually gone against both commandments…true?
   C:
   

   And why should it be bad? From the Catholic perspective we believe that Christ is on the altars of the Orthodox Church in the Eucharist. Why will Christ be there if they are destined for hell? Besides, if defecting to Orthodoxy is an act of schism and thus punishable by going to hell, but also from the Catholic perspective their priests are valid and their confessions are valid, then just go to confession as soon as you are received in the Orthodox Church.

   It’s a valid observation.
   
   Here’s how I understand it. If one is going to do the will of God,
   • Unity is a must. It’s not a suggestion. Division and schism, is clearly condemned in scripture. So how does one determine who is divided, and divided from whom?
   • There was an attempt by Satan at the last supper, to divide the apostles among themselves [Lk 22: 24-32]. How did Jesus settle their argument?
   • He identified for them who is behind the sifting. It’s Satan
   • Then He said to them, Peter was getting His personal prayer so Peter could be the one to strengthen THEM after everone is sifted. Jesus very clearly ended their argument. Peter is the one being groomed in the leadership role over the apostles i.e. in extension the Church as well, and this we see throughout the Gospels. And Jesus prayer to the Father after this event, “that they maybe one as you Father and I are one”. Ergo, no room for any division among them nor from Peter.
   • If one remains united to Peter, in all that entails, they are obeying the will of God. Those who don’t, are being successfuly sifted by Satan.
   • Paul put division this way Rom 16:17-20] I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions (διχοστασία dichostasia division/sedition)and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. 20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
   C:
   

   Why not? If people want to go to the Orthodox Church, who am I to stop them? I always pray to God to grant me the strength to be an instrument of His will. Why will I stop those whom he guided to Orthodoxy? If someone grows spiritually in the Orthodox Church than in the Catholic Church, why is that a bad thing? Around this forum you see many complain of the nominal Catholics in their parishes, yet if these same people find spiritual growth in Orthodoxy we should stop them?

   Seens to me, our job is to evangelize “nominal” Catholics and educate them with the avalanche of materials available for that purpose so they become on fire for the faith

 

[steve_b]

Actually, Vatican I states that the Pope doesn’t need a reason to step in. He has immediate ordinary power in all dioceses/eparchies of the Church.

In my lifetime, my observation is, if a pope exercises his authority in a particular diocese, he has good reason. If anything, haven’t we all wondered at one time, and in a particular case, why they don’t act more swiftly?

 

[John_of_Patmos]

And why should it be bad? From the Catholic perspective we believe that Christ is on the altars of the Orthodox Church in the Eucharist. Why will Christ be there if they are destined for hell? Besides, if defecting to Orthodoxy is an act of schism and thus punishable by going to hell, but also from the Catholic perspective their priests are valid and their confessions are valid, then ***just go to confession as soon as you are received in the Orthodox Church.

---

/QUOTE]

That has some issues.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Here’s something to consider. Jesus named 2 commandments that all the law and prophets hang on.

(paraphrased)

1. • Love God with everything you have
   • Love your neighbor as yourself
   iow, If I didn’t have concern for my neighbor’s soul for example, I’ve actually gone against both commandments…true?

1. 
   Not true. There is nothing you can do about how they conduct their lives. You can love them even if they remain in sin. You can advise them, but if you force them to do something against their will, then that is not loving them. Even God does not force us against our own will because He himself is love, and that is what love is. If one person wants to go to the Orthodox Church, what can I do? Nothing. So why should I burden myself with it?
   

   It’s a valid observation.
   
   Here’s how I understand it. If one is going to do the will of God,
   

   • Unity is a must. It’s not a suggestion. Division and schism, is clearly condemned in scripture. So how does one determine who is divided, and divided from whom?
   • There was an attempt by Satan at the last supper, to divide the apostles among themselves [Lk 22: 24-32]. How did Jesus settle their argument?
   • He identified for them who is behind the sifting. It’s Satan
   • Then He said to them, Peter was getting His personal prayer so Peter could be the one to strengthen THEM after everone is sifted. Jesus very clearly ended their argument. Peter is the one being groomed in the leadership role over the apostles i.e. in extension the Church as well, and this we see throughout the Gospels. And Jesus prayer to the Father after this event, “that they maybe one as you Father and I are one”. Ergo, no room for any division among them nor from Peter.
   • If one remains united to Peter, in all that entails, they are obeying the will of God. Those who don’t, are being successfuly sifted by Satan.
   • Paul put division this way Rom 16:17-20] I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions (διχοστασία dichostasia division/sedition)and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. 20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

   Seens to me, our job is to evangelize “nominal” Catholics and educate them with the avalanche of materials available for that purpose so they become on fire for the faith

   If you read the Bible, God has divided men to save them from themselves. The Tower of Bable is a prime example. Even the tribes of Israel were divided at the time Jesus took flesh. I always have believed that the Great Schism is the will of God that the true faith may be preserved. If we agreed on absolutely everything then we could have started teaching in error. But because we each take our own path, we do look across at each other and see what each other is doing and adjust ourselves accordingly. Also I think it is a testament of the trueness of our faith that we are nearly identical regardless of our own despise of one another for the greater part of the last century.
   
   Of course we should try to enrich the understanding of the nominal Catholics within our faith. But that doesn’t always work out so well. We are fooling ourselves if we believe that solves every issue out there.
   

   In my lifetime, my observation is, if a pope exercises his authority in a particular diocese, he has good reason. If anything, haven’t we all wondered at one time, and in a particular case, why they don’t act more swiftly?

   That is true, but think of it this way, its the same as every nuclear capable nation. Besides the United States, have you seen another nation use nuclear weapons in the entire history of the planet? So why are we afraid of Russia, China, North Korea, Pakistan, etc? Hey, history says they won’t use it, right?
   
   If you have it, it is only a matter of time that someone presses the button. We’ve been blessed with Holy Popes. But history should remind us there have been Popes who have acted against the character of the Apostles. That one has happened in the past, therefore its reasonable to think it will happen again in the future.
   

   That has some issues.

   As I said in a previous post, I was being deliberately sarcastic about that reply.

 

[steve_b]

Not true. There is nothing you can do about how they conduct their lives. You can love them even if they remain in sin. You can advise them, but if you force them to do something against their will, then that is not loving them. Even God does not force us against our own will because He himself is love, and that is what love is. If one person wants to go to the Orthodox Church, what can I do? Nothing. So why should I burden myself with it?

I never said anything about force. Prayer, good example, having answers for the hope that is in us, etc etc are all things one can/should proactively do for another in need.
C:

If you read the Bible, God has divided men to save them from themselves. The Tower of Bable is a prime example. Even the tribes of Israel were divided at the time Jesus took flesh. I always have believed that the Great Schism is the will of God that the true faith may be preserved. If we agreed on absolutely everything then we could have started teaching in error. But because we each take our own path, we do look across at each other and see what each other is doing and adjust ourselves accordingly. Also I think it is a testament of the trueness of our faith that we are nearly identical regardless of our own despise of one another for the greater part of the last century.

That’s a different application of division. That refers to those who will accept Him vs those who won’t.

What He builds, He doesn’t divide. Satan is the one who divides what Jesus builds
C:

Of course we should try to enrich the understanding of the nominal Catholics within our faith. But that doesn’t always work out so well. We are fooling ourselves if we believe that solves every issue out there.

I think there’s a temptation by many to give up too quickly on the nominal and lukewarm. That’s all I’m saying
C:

That is true, but think of it this way, its the same as every nuclear capable nation. Besides the United States, have you seen another nation use nuclear weapons in the entire history of the planet? So why are we afraid of Russia, China, North Korea, Pakistan, etc? Hey, history says they won’t use it, right?

If you have it, it is only a matter of time that someone presses the button. We’ve been blessed with Holy Popes. But history should remind us there have been Popes who have acted against the character of the Apostles. That one has happened in the past, therefore its reasonable to think it will happen again in the future.

Thank God, out of 266 popes, over the last 1,979 years, we’ve had very few problem popes

 

[ConstantineTG]

I never said anything about force. Prayer, good example, having answers for the hope that is in us, etc etc are all things one can/should proactively do for another in need.

Of course we should always pray for everyone. My point there was other people’s salvation is really up to them. I can only do so much and just entrust them to God.

That’s a different application of division. That refers to those who will accept Him vs those who won’t.

What He builds, He doesn’t divide. Satan is the one who divides what Jesus builds

Given that the Catholic Church has declared that the traditions of the Orthodox are part of the tradition of the one true Church, how can you say that the divide is by Satan if they are able to faithfully keep the true faith? I do agree that there has been a lot of pride on both sides. No one side can claim that they are innocent of the schism.

I think there’s a temptation by many to give up too quickly on the nominal and lukewarm. That’s all I’m saying

True. But people moving out of the Church has nothing to do about us giving up on them. Some do find God somewhere else. I cannot explain it, but you see its effects on them. Like I said earlier, we each have to pursue our own path to salvation. For some people, that path goes through the Orthodox Church.

Thank God, out of 266 popes, over the last 1,979 years, we’ve had very few problem popes

And like my example, you can say the same. Only the US has ever used nuclear weapons. But we’re sweating about the others who has them, and the others who we are not even sure if they have them. Even if there have only been a number of Popes who has proven to be bad ones, all it takes is one to abuse that power and cause huge damage to the Church.

 

[Trebor135]

Why should I fear for their souls?

Because–from the Catholic perspective–they’ve left the church founded by Christ.

There is nothing I can do about.

Taking this as a general principle: it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do what little we can. Uzbekistan is ruled by one of the most vicious tyrants in the world today, and this Canadian university student has no clout over him, but I still pray for the country of Islom Karimov. (Not the best comparison by any means… but it is a goal in life for me to increase awareness of this issue.)

As Christ said, leave our troubles to Him. The only soul I can worry about is my own.

But you don’t even believe in praying for those who, from the standpoint of your Church, have gone into schism? What about Catholics turned Evangelicals, or Christians turned Muslims?

And why should it be bad? From the Catholic perspective we believe that Christ is on the altars of the Orthodox Church in the Eucharist. Why will Christ be there if they are destined for hell?

The Catholic Church would say that the hundreds of millions of Christians born and raised in Eastern Orthodoxy have no fault in the Schism (the intricacies of the relevant history are as obscure to 99.9 percent of the world’s population as are those of biochemistry), so the devout among them have a high probability of attaining heaven–by the grace and mercy of God.

Besides, if defecting to Orthodoxy is an act of schism and thus punishable by going to hell, but also from the Catholic perspective their priests are valid and their confessions are valid, then just go to confession as soon as you are received in the Orthodox Church.

Haha, if you want to put it that way.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Because–from the Catholic perspective–they’ve left the church founded by Christ.

Taking this as a general principle: it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do what little we can. Uzbekistan is ruled by one of the most vicious tyrants in the world today, and this Canadian university student has no clout over him, but I still pray for the country of Islom Karimov. (Not the best comparison by any means… but it is a goal in life for me to increase awareness of this issue.)

But you don’t even believe in praying for those who, from the standpoint of your Church, have gone into schism? What about Catholics turned Evangelicals, or Christians turned Muslims?

The Catholic Church would say that the hundreds of millions of Christians born and raised in Eastern Orthodoxy have no fault in the Schism (the intricacies of the relevant history are as obscure to 99.9 percent of the world’s population as are those of biochemistry), so the devout among them have a high probability of attaining heaven–by the grace and mercy of God.

Haha, if you want to put it that way.

But that;s the thing, I do not believe the Orthodox Church is outside of the One True Church. I mean, do we believe that there are 7 valid Sacraments outside of the Church? Do we believe that priests outside of the Church can turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ?

 

[Filii_Dei]

And many former Catholics will tell you that they experienced zero spiritual growth until they became Evangelical Protestants.

The difference is that those who translate between the East and West remain in fully valid churches, while those who become Protestants are abandoning valid churches for ecclesial communities. Their ‘spiritual growth’ is therefore devoid of the sacramental grace that true churches offer freely and willingly to their baptised brethren.

That being said, I’m sure our Orthodox brothers would probably smile weakly at this post and shrug at the notion of other churches outside of their communion being valid, but that’s for another day.

 

[ConstantineTG]

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 9:38-39[/BIBLEDRB]

So since the Orthodox can consecrate bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ, a miracle in Christ’s name, well, you know what the passage says.

 

[dcointin]

The difference is that those who translate between the East and West remain in fully valid churches, while those who become Protestants are abandoning valid churches for ecclesial communities. Their ‘spiritual growth’ is therefore devoid of the sacramental grace that true churches offer freely and willingly to their baptised brethren.

That being said, I’m sure our Orthodox brothers would probably smile weakly at this post and shrug at the notion of other churches outside of their communion being valid, but that’s for another day.

Not this Orthodox Christian That there have been Catholics since the schism who were saints every bit as remarkable as ours, such as Padre Pio, is proof of this. One cannot become a saint without the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit that is present only in the sacraments of the Church.

St. Padre Pio, pray for us!

 

[Filii_Dei]

Not this Orthodox Christian That there have been Catholics since the schism who were saints every bit as remarkable as ours, such as Padre Pio, is proof of this. One cannot become a saint without the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit that is present only in the sacraments of the Church.

St. Padre Pio, pray for us!

Similarly, I am inspired by the (Eastern Orthodox) Holy Martyrs of China, who, like the (Catholic) Martyr Saints of China, stood witness to their undying faith in Our Lord. Truly, there is much holiness to be seen in the Orthodox Church, if only more Catholics would open their eyes to see it!

 

[Vico]

What does ‘proper’ mean in the context of this discussion?

Just an example … If one was to make the claim that immediate Papal authority in another bishop’s diocese was improper, how would that be taken?

The extent of power, from Vatican I and II, is described here:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930224en.html

1983 CIC Canon 1404: The First See is judged by no one.
Commentary: “Canon 1404 is not a statement about the personal impeccability or inerrancy of the Holy Father. Should, indeed, the Pope fall into heresy, it is understood that he would loose his office. To fall from Peter’s faith is to fall from his chair. … It says that the Holy Father cannot be tried by a secular or religious court…”

– New commentary on the Code of Canon Law by John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, Thomas J. Green, p. 1618

 

[Trebor135]

The extent of power, from Vatican I and II, is described here:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930224en.html

Thanks for this link–it helpfully summarizes the true Catholic teaching on the role of the pope in the Church’s affairs.

1983 CIC Canon 1404: The First See is judged by no one.
Commentary: “Canon 1404 is not a statement about the personal impeccability or inerrancy of the Holy Father. Should, indeed, the Pope fall into heresy, it is understood that he would loose his office. To fall from Peter’s faith is to fall from his chair. … It says that the Holy Father cannot be tried by a secular or religious court…”

– New commentary on the Code of Canon Law by John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, Thomas J. Green, p. 1618

Wow. On the face of it, this canon says that the pope is… above the law.

What if–God forbid–a successor to Benedict XVI goes off the rails and turns into a miserable scoundrel during his tenure, to the point of employing hit teams against perceived adversaries and preaching modernist errors from the pulpit? If I have properly understood this canon, no secular or religious court has the authority to haul such a bad apple off to answer for his crimes/sins.

 

[Nine_Two]

Wow. On the face of it, this canon says that the pope is… above the law.

What if–God forbid–a successor to Benedict XVI goes off the rails and turns into a miserable scoundrel during his tenure, to the point of employing hit teams against perceived adversaries and preaching modernist errors from the pulpit? If I have properly understood this canon, no secular or religious court has the authority to haul such a bad apple off to answer for his crimes/sins.

Very interesting, especially since Popes have, in the past, been tried by religious courts, in one case after death.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The extent of power, from Vatican I and II, is described here:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930224en.html

1983 CIC Canon 1404: The First See is judged by no one.
Commentary: “Canon 1404 is not a statement about the personal impeccability or inerrancy of the Holy Father. Should, indeed, the Pope fall into heresy, it is understood that he would loose his office. To fall from Peter’s faith is to fall from his chair. … It says that the Holy Father cannot be tried by a secular or religious court…”

– New commentary on the Code of Canon Law by John P. Beal, James A. Coriden, Thomas J. Green, p. 1618

Isn’t that a dull blade? If he falls from the faith but yet cannot be tried. So how do we declare such a Pope a heretic? We’ve pushed the Sedevacantists aside, those who make this claim that the chair has been vacated by heresy of the Popes since Vatican II. Let’s assume for a moment here that they are correct. And here we are buying the heresy from the recent to the current Pope. So who’s to proclaim that the Pope is indeed a heretic? Do we have to wait for the Pope to die and wait that the Holy Spirit grants us a Pope who will live true to the faith of Peter? What if its a grand conspiracy to elect Pope after Pope who is a member of such group of heretics? Wasn’t Peter accountable to the other Apostles?

The more I read about the powers of the Pope, honestly, the more my faith is shaken on it. I do believe in St. Peter and his Primacy, but it seems the modern Papacy is not in-line with St. Peter’s role.

 

[Trebor135]

Isn’t that a dull blade? If he falls from the faith but yet cannot be tried. So how do we declare such a Pope a heretic? We’ve pushed the Sedevacantists aside, those who make this claim that the chair has been vacated by heresy of the Popes since Vatican II. Let’s assume for a moment here that they are correct. And here we are buying the heresy from the recent to the current Pope. So who’s to proclaim that the Pope is indeed a heretic? Do we have to wait for the Pope to die and wait that the Holy Spirit grants us a Pope who will live true to the faith of Peter? What if its a grand conspiracy to elect Pope after Pope who is a member of such group of heretics? Wasn’t Peter accountable to the other Apostles?

Good questions.

St. Catherine of Siena gave the pope a piece of her mind, and that happened after the East-West Schism–when the pope’s authority was (as the Eastern Orthodox would say) becoming innovatively excessive. I wonder whether that pope could have been brought before a court, either secular or religious…

The more I read about the powers of the Pope, honestly, the more my faith is shaken on it. I do believe in St. Peter and his Primacy, but it seems the modern Papacy is not in-line with St. Peter’s role.

The canon cited by Vico really makes me question whether I can be in communion with Rome. The last sentence of the commentary as quoted in his post, though, contains an elipsis, so it’s possible that a caveat is given in the original text. Vico, further clarification on your part would be greatly appreciated.