The Satanic or Diabolic Nature of the Occult and Practices Related to the Occult

[AntiTheist]

How could you explain the Miracle from God of the Sun in Fatima. Which was predicted to the day by the Blessed Mother.

Well, we’re talking about entities here, not events, but I’ve discussed this supposed miracle before. We know – thanks to astronomical evidence – that the sun didn’t actually move anywhere that day (if it had moved, it would have destroyed the solar system by throwing off the orbits of all the planets). So what we have are widescale reports of people in one particular location on the earth being mistaken about seeing the sun move.

That’s kind of odd, but it doesn’t rise to the level of evidence of the supernatural. If your god were going to perform a miracle like moving the sun…why wouldn’t he actually move the sun? Why would he instead make a crowd of people think the sun was moving?

Why not at least make the illusion visible to everyone on earth who could see the sun? Or, better yet, if he’s going to give explicit signs to people, why not just speak directly to everybody on earth in a clear, unmistakable voice?

What you’re proposing just isn’t good evidence of the supernatural.

The Blind healed and could see. Breast Cancer healed with no scars of operations all in Zeitoun from 68-70? And these apparitions appeared for up to 8-hrs at a time and were witnessed by a “1/4 million” of all faiths including no faith. Or Lourdes, or Akita and on and on.

Well, gee, who could argue with this impenetrable wall of broad and sweeping claims.

To pick an obvious one, I’ve spoken before on these boards about how you could go about demonstrating that the water from Lourdes has healing properties. You just take a group of cancer patients and give half of them water from Lourdes and half of them regular tap water. You don’t tell the patients or the doctors which group is getting which, so it’s a double-blind experiment.

You record the results and see how many people who received the Lourdes water recover. You then measure that against 1) the number of people you would expect to experience natural remissions and 2) the number of people you would expect to recover due to the placebo effect.

If your experiment reveals that the Lourdes water heals people at a much higher rate than you would expect from natural remissions or placebo effect – and if you can do this experiment over and over and over again – which you obviously could if the water actually had healing properties – then you will have demonstrated that the miracle of the water is real.

This, in and of itself wouldn’t automatically demonstrate that your religion is true, but it would be one heck of a start – all of a sudden, you’d have a lot more people interested in taking your doctrines more seriously, and you’d have a lot more scientists interested in experimenting with other Catholic miracles.

Why do you think no one’s ever done such an experiment?

After all, to exist is to have measurable effects on the world. If you claim that the water from Lourdes has healing properties, but it doesn’t produce any results other than those that we would expect to occur naturally, then for all intents and purposes, it doesn’t have those healing properties at all.

Knowiing Good does exist, it makes perfect sense evil also would.

Maybe so, but even if you felt convinced that there’s a god, you would still need evidence of spirits, and there is none.

 

[AntiTheist]

As for those who do not believe in the occult - I press you caution. Science knows much but not everything, and if science discovers another possible realm of consciousness* then your children will call you foolish for your lack of faith, even if only in science.

We’re only justified in believing things for which there is evidence. If there is “another possible realm of consciousness,” but no evidence for it, there’s no good reason to believe in it. When we discover evidence of it, then and only then will there be good reason to believe in it.

People of the past weren’t “foolish” – they just had less information to work with than we do. And future generations will have more information than we have to work with. And on it goes.

 

[JHow]

…People of the past weren’t “foolish” – they just had less information to work with than we do. And future generations will have more information than we have to work with…

Funny though, that belief in spirits has not departed as technology has progressed. Spiritualism experienced a revival at the turn of the century at a time when science was really getting rolling. Information has not quelled these beliefs appreciably that I can see.

 

[Timothy17]

We’re only justified in believing things for which there is evidence. If there is “another possible realm of consciousness,” but no evidence for it, there’s no good reason to believe in it. When we discover evidence of it, then and only then will there be good reason to believe in it.

If you ran through Hiroshima screaming, “A bomb that can obliterate your entire city is coming ! Please, for the love of your lives, run !” And they demanded you, “P’ah ! Demonstrate this so-called bomb, for we know none such thing exists !” I am curious, does their denial of it cancel your warning ? Remember, the bomb was kept secret, and even ordinary Americans and most members of the military had no idea of its existence.

People of the past weren’t “foolish” – they just had less information to work with than we do.

That is a very enlightened and promising observation.

Pax,
Tim

 

[Sufjon]

I keep hearing the term “New Age”. What is New Age?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[AntiTheist]

Funny though, that belief in spirits has not departed as technology has progressed. Spiritualism experienced a revival at the turn of the century at a time when science was really getting rolling. Information has not quelled these beliefs appreciably that I can see.

So what? I’ve been arguing that we need good reasons and evidence to accept claims. I never said that learning some things about the world will automatically make all of a culture’s stupid ideas go away.

 

[AntiTheist]

If you ran through Hiroshima * screaming, “A bomb that can obliterate your entire city is coming ! Please, for the love of your lives, run !” And they demanded you, “P’ah ! Demonstrate this so-called bomb, for we know none such thing exists !” I am curious, does their denial of it cancel your warning ? Remember, the bomb was kept secret, and even ordinary Americans and most members of the military had no idea of its existence.* The relevant question is, would the Japanese citizens have any good reason to take the word of a crazy-sounding guy running through the streets?

Imagine if someone did that today in a major city. Whether or not his dire warning points to something true or not, I dare say that most people would not have sufficient reason to trust a raving lunatic running through the streets.

To use another example, I passed a homeless man the other day who was ranting about aliens brainwashing people. Suppose for a moment that he’s right and that aliens have been brainwashing people. Well, from my perspective, I still don’t have any reason to accept it as true. All I have is the word of some guy.

Now, if the guy has good evidence that aliens are brainwashing people – which, if he’s right, then he probably does have good evidence that led him to that conclusion – then he should present his evidence and then – and only then – will I have good reason to believe him.

 

[AntiTheist]

I keep hearing the term “New Age”. What is New Age?

It’s a term given to a wide variety of beliefs that all have in common the fact that they’re generally nutty and stupid. Examples of “New Age” beliefs include the idea that crystals have magical power, the notion that all people have “psychic potential,” the idea that people can have lucid dreams that are really “astral projections,” the idea that thoughts and wishes can actually make things happen (a la “The Secret”), and other sorts of dumb ideas that authors dream up to dupe gullible people into parting with their money.

Now, it should be obvious that, from my perspective, all supernatural claims are equally unsupported by evidence, just like this “new age” nonsense.

 

[Sufjon]

It’s a term given to a wide variety of beliefs that all have in common the fact that they’re generally nutty and stupid. Examples of “New Age” beliefs include the idea that crystals have magical power, the notion that all people have “psychic potential,” the idea that people can have lucid dreams that are really “astral projections,” the idea that thoughts and wishes can actually make things happen (a la “The Secret”), and other sorts of dumb ideas that authors dream up to dupe gullible people into parting with their money.

Now, it should be obvious that, from my perspective, all supernatural claims are equally unsupported by evidence, just like this “new age” nonsense.

Thanks. I don’t know anything about some of the stuff you mentioned. Other things you mentioned I am familiar with but they predate Christianity, so wouldn’t that be “Old Age” stuff? Oh well. I’m just confused by the term.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[AntiTheist]

Thanks. I don’t know anything about some of the stuff you mentioned. Other things you mentioned I am familiar with but they predate Christianity, so wouldn’t that be “Old Age” stuff? Oh well. I’m just confused by the term.

I’m actually not aware of where the term “New Age” was first used, but I’d guess that it has its root in the astrological idea that we are entering the Age of Aquarius, predicted by some to be a “new age” of mankind’s “spiritual evolution” (whatever that means) in which we will awaken our psychic powers, create world peace, realize that lots of dumb ideas from the past were really right, and all act like hippies.

Or something like that.

 

[Sufjon]

I’m actually not aware of where the term “New Age” was first used, but I’d guess that it has its root in the astrological idea that we are entering the Age of Aquarius, predicted by some to be a “new age” of mankind’s “spiritual evolution” (whatever that means) in which we will awaken our psychic powers, create world peace, realize that lots of dumb ideas from the past were really right, and all act like hippies.

Or something like that.

Thanks AntiTheist. Well, I guess I don;t know much about that, but I do like hippies!

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Publisher]

If you do not believe in the devil, then you do not believe in the Gospel.

I am paraphrasing Pope John Paul II, but I have to agree with his logic on this one.

As for those who do not believe in the occult - I press you caution. Science knows much but not everything, and if science discovers another possible realm of consciousness* then your children will call you foolish for your lack of faith, even if only in science.

Catholics and Christians in general were mocked for not “believing” in the modern sciences and rationalism as and when they developed, and through course of time were convinced of at least the former’s certain propensity for truth, and thus real power. As for you who refuse to believe in the spiritual realm, I warn you, you position yourselves no differently (in the eyes of the devils) than those reactionary Christians who refused to believe in the efficacy of science. Ignorance in this regard makes for very easy prey. As a case in point, St Augustine, a 5th century Roman citizen and Bishop of Hippo, extremely well studied and very learned of the history of the empire, made sport of the fact that the Roman Senate continually desired to irradicate the more monstrous aspects and spectacles of their religious cults and practices, but were continually bedeviled and terrified into submission on many occassions, thus causing even the most ardently philosophic and purely logical of their members to “back-down.” It was not until the advent of Christianity, and its certainty of both i) the inefficaciousness of the pagan religions, and ii) its being a haunt for devils and demons, and not or never angels or the True God, that finally irradicated that filthy and stupid religion off the face of the earth, for even if or when unexplainable obstacles presented themselves, the Christians were sure this was at best the works of devils, and feared not those above their God and His Christ.

Pax,
Tim

*edited, previously read “conscience.”

I do not believe in an enity that most Christians believe is “the devil”. I believe in evil as a pervasive tendency…just open a newspaper on any given day to see it…but I am responsible for my own actions…I have not one leg to stand upon to claim “the devil made me do it”…any psychological issues that may arise are not caused by demons inhabiting my body…but a chemical/hormonal imbalance that may be corrected by medication…I’m not ‘possessed’ and in need of an exorcism…but if it’s a purely psychological issue and not a hormonal or chemical imbalance…an “exorcism” may provide the psychological stimulation and catharsis I need to “get better”.

Since I do not believe in a literal “Adam and Eve” and certainly don’t believe in talking snakes and 'magic apples" or “apricots”…that caused the world’s problems…no more than I believe in Pandora’s box let loose the vile things in this world and the saving grace is “hope” that came last from the box…I do not believe man ‘fell’…I believe humanity has the capacity for great good…and great evil…we are not “totally depraved”…we are more analagous to a “chekker board”…a mixture of “good and bad”…“light and dark”…each square is very alluring with it’s own benefits…we are “becoming” and the theological tenets of some of Christianity concerning “original sin” or “the fall” make no real sense to me…but are “mythic” explanations of our human condition…and for me the answer is found in the life and mission of Jesus of Nazareth…“whatever happened” in epochs past that separated us from the Presence and each other…“the answer” is best found in the Christian message…“and I knew it experimentally”…“experientially” when I embrace these precepts…my life is filled with peace…joy…and hopefully compassion for this world…and while I cannot change the whole world…I certainly can change the “world” in which I live through the teachings and “mythic” stories of Jesus of Nazareth.

So to do I believe that the whole gospel story is “an answer” to that “mythic” beginning by weaving it’s own “mythic” solution…that works. Each religion shares in that mythic beginning with stories of their own…and seeks to address “the fall” in it’s own way.

For me the story of Jesus and the things he said while in his mortality IS the solution to our world’s needs. “Love one another”…“do good”…“turn the other cheek”…“feed the hungry…give water to the thirsty…visit the prisoners…bind up that which is broken” speak to “that of God” in each of us. I don’t have to know “WHY” or “HOW” it works…just that it does.

Satan is a “scapegoat” for bad behavior…I’ve always wondered at the “mythic” battle between God and Satan…it took 2/3’s of the angels AND GOD to defeat 1/3 of the “fallen” and Satan…and he’s still giving God heartache and trouble.

That “Christians” should give such credence to an “anti-God” figure and empower him to influence their lives so dramatically…I wonder…according to Christian belief…isn’t he a “defeated foe”? Wasn’t he defeated at the cross? IMO…you’d never know it to hear some “Believers” speak…how do we “defeat Satan”? “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”…“IT IS FINISHED”…to me “the satan” is a defeated mythic foe.

Never mind that “the satan” was not personified in Judeo/Christian thought until after the Exlile when the returning Jews brought back a personification of “evil” from their Zorastrian captors. In the Book of Job…“Satan” is doing God’s work by afflicting Job to “prove” to God and Satan that Job would remain faithful…certainly an all knowing “God” and evidently an almost “omnipotent devil” would have known this.

If “believeing in the devil and demons” brings comfort and explains why “bad things happen” to some…wonderful…but it makes no sense to me.

 

[Publisher]

No…the “Old Ones”…in the Wiccan tradition of my friends the “Old Ones” are the “Old Gods” that were displaced by the Jewish/Christian God. They do not believe the “Gods” are “Other”…we are of the same species, they and us…they have just “gone on before us”…or “joined again with the “Oversoul”… and we make that journey to where they are…be it 'joining with the earth and trees and rocks and rivers when we die” or “going to the Summerland”…it is “myth”…and while the works of HP Lovecraft have been used as a mythic base for some Neo-pagan traditions…it is not the basis of the tradition my Wiccan friends use…

 

[Chogi]

Isn’t it true that whether they want to believe it is truly not from satan, the occult, wiccan, etc. that it really is, as they are just blinded by him from the truth?
Am I correct in this thinking? Thank you for a good answer. Dan

 

[kenofken]

Isn’t it true that whether they want to believe it is truly not from satan, the occult, wiccan, etc. that it really is, as they are just blinded by him from the truth?
Am I correct in this thinking? Thank you for a good answer. Dan

Many evangelical protestants say the exact same thing about Catholicism. Are they correct in that thinking?

 

[Timothy17]

The relevant question is, would the Japanese citizens have any good reason to take the word of a crazy-sounding guy running through the streets?

Firstly, of course you are going to “sound crazy,” but that does not mean you are crazy.

Imagine if someone did that today in a major city. Whether or not his dire warning points to something true or not, I dare say that most people would not have sufficient reason to trust a raving lunatic running through the streets.

Again, I would allege that a raving lunatic could never prophesy anything of any import, which is why we call them raving lunatics ; however, in the scenario I gave you are not a raving lunatic, unless you would like to share something with us.

At this point I am going to introduce you to an immensely important year in history : A.D 70. This is the year that Jerusalem was encircled by a Roman legion during a mandatory Jewish festival, so all of the then Jewish elite, scribes, ministers, priests, influentials, etc., were all in the city. The city’s population exploded during the festival, making it arguably the single most populous city on Earth - for at least the course of the festival. Sadly, food provisions did not intend to feed millions for extended periods, so the city quickly fell into starvation, with enormous numbers dying therefrom, and the problem became so pandemic that cannibalism was reported to become rampant. The Romans permitted this to happen and then finally broke through the walls and slaughtered and enslaved everyone they found. This destroyed forever the Old Testament religion, its priesthood, and all of its (then) elites, with few exceptions save for those thrown in to slavery or who managed to escape beforehand, or were lucky enough not to be able to attend.

The reason I tell you this tale is that a poor guy about 40 years before predicted this would happen. The Christian portion of the population left the city at the first warning signs, the rest did not. This poor guy was certainly not well-to-do, but he was most reasonable, and certainly not a lunatic.

So, returning to point, I would argue that, seeing as you are a reasonable and sound-minded person, there is no reason to thus classify you a nut-ball because you are warning people of imminent disaster, something any sane person with a modicum of humanity would feel morally compelled to do. I would argue that for other, quite private reasons people would feel compelled at that point to label you a lunatic, or a nutter, or what have you, in order to minimalize you and thus justify themselves in persisting in their convenience, and to remain comfortable in their habits, at which point most audiences to such a spectacle might lose sympathy for those persons whose fates it now appears (to the audience, at least) they have sealed for themselves. Certainly you would not be held to ricidule, as you went out of your way to warn those folks, even subjecting yourself to humiliation and ridicule for their sakes.

Pax,
Tim

 

[Timothy17]

I do not believe in an enity that most Christians believe is “the devil”.

Then you do not believe in the Gospel.

I believe in evil as a pervasive tendency…just open a newspaper on any given day to see it…but I am responsible for my own actions…I have not one leg to stand upon to claim “the devil made me do it”

Would be a real pity if the devil actually did, as the Judge would have no problem throwing the book at you at this point, seeing as you, yourself, have said, “I have not one leg to stand upon the claim ‘the devil made me do it’.”

…any psychological issues that may arise are not caused by demons inhabiting my body

Certainly not necessarily, but when was the last time a demon inhabited your body ?

…but a chemical/hormonal imbalance that may be corrected by medication…

Or by prayer and God’s grace.

I’m not ‘possessed’ and in need of an exorcism…

I sure hope not !

but if it’s a purely psychological issue and not a hormonal or chemical imbalance…an “exorcism” may provide the psychological stimulation and catharsis I need to “get better”.

Well +1 for physchological exorcisms, then !

Since I do not believe in a literal “Adam and Eve”

So you don’t believe in the Gospel or the Old Testament.

and certainly don’t believe in talking snakes and 'magic apples" or “apricots”

Christians aren’t supposed to practice magic, so I hardly have reason to believe God wants us to believe in magical anything You might want to read the OT or the NT before throwing it out the window.

…that caused the world’s problems…no more than I believe in Pandora’s box let loose the vile things in this world and the saving grace is “hope” that came last from the box…I do not believe man ‘fell’…I believe humanity has the capacity for great good…and great evil…we are not “totally depraved”…we are more analagous to a “chekker board”…a mixture of “good and bad”…“light and dark”…each square is very alluring with it’s own benefits…we are “becoming” and the theological tenets of some of Christianity concerning “original sin” or “the fall” make no real sense to me…but are “mythic” explanations of our human condition…and for me the answer is found in the life and mission of Jesus of Nazareth…“whatever happened” in epochs past that separated us from the Presence and each other…“the answer” is best found in the Christian message…“and I knew it experimentally”…“experientially” when I embrace these precepts…my life is filled with peace…joy…and hopefully compassion for this world…and while I cannot change the whole world…I certainly can change the “world” in which I live through the teachings and “mythic” stories of Jesus of Nazareth.

You’re rambling now. Frankly, you don’t actually believe in anything except yourself.

So to do I believe that the whole gospel story is “an answer” to that “mythic” beginning by weaving it’s own “mythic” solution…that works. Each religion shares in that mythic beginning with stories of their own…and seeks to address “the fall” in it’s own way.

And you became a Freemason on… ?

For me the story of Jesus and the things he said while in his mortality IS the solution to our world’s needs. “Love one another”…“do good”…“turn the other cheek”…“feed the hungry…give water to the thirsty…visit the prisoners…bind up that which is broken” speak to “that of God” in each of us. I don’t have to know “WHY” or “HOW” it works…just that it does.

Nonsense. Jesus made no qualms about it : if you do not believe in the Scriptures, and the Prophets, then you cannot believe in Him, or anything He did. Playing surgeon with the Scriptures risks cutting vital organs away from the Body, at which point it loses any efficaciousness. You claim to “believe” in what Jesus said and did : I charge you merely agree with Him at certain points.

Satan is a “scapegoat”

Yes, of course he is a scapegoat. Again, if you read the Scriptures you would know that Satan certainly is a “scapegoat,” the ritualistic meaning of which I am pretty sure you don’t understand judging by what followed in the rest of your rant / post.

Pax,
Tim

 

[Chogi]

Many evangelical protestants say the exact same thing about Catholicism. Are they correct in that thinking?

No, I do not agree at all with your statement! As it is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[edwest2]

First of all, the Bible is very clear about demons and the Devil. Jesus drove some out of one man as an actual event. Some may not believe this but so what? Such disbelief simply shows a disbelief of the Bible and the Gospel itself.

It has been written that some hate the Catholic Church but most do so out of a total misunderstanding of what the Church actually teaches and instead, rely on rumors and hearsay.

Does the Church recognize mental illness? Of course it does. But it also recognizes the fact of demon possession:

amazon.com/Interview-Exorcist-Insiders-Possession-Deliverance/dp/1932645969

Too many today believe that science has dispelled so-called myth and superstition. Actually, it has done nothing of the kind. While scientists have given us medicines and surgical procedures and ways to help people suffering from various mental illnesses, it is not the end of the story. Not by a long shot

God bless,
Ed

 

[AntiTheist]

Firstly, of course you are going to “sound crazy,” but that does not mean you are crazy.

You are not understanding the nature of my objection. I am saying that the average city-dweller has no good reason to believe that a person screaming about prophecies of destruction is correct.

Now, the person screaming about prophecies of destruction might be correct, but even if he is, the average citizen has no good reason to believe that he is correct.

As an example, I actually did hear someone the other day yelling on the street that aliens are going to bring about the end of the world soon. Do you think that I have good reason to believe this person?

My stance is that I have no good reason to believe apocalyptic claims merely on the say-so of a guy. Again, maybe he’s right and maybe he’s wrong, but regardless, I still have no good reason to believe merely because he says so.

At this point I am going to introduce you to an immensely important year in history : A.D 70.

I’m familiar with the history.

The reason I tell you this tale is that a poor guy about 40 years before predicted this would happen.

Well, that’s one interpretation. Another interpretation is that the “prophecy” was written down after the fall of the city and that it was a “post-diction” rather than a prediction.

For example, I could write a story in which I claim that my friend predicted the fall of the Berlin wall before it happened. He didn’t, but I could write a story that puts the words in his mouth. Then, in 2,000 years, when my story is discovered by later civilizations – and no one is exactly sure which decade my story was written in – there might be some gullible saps who take my story as “evidence” that there are people with predictive powers.

And besides, even if some guy had said that a city will fall some day, that’s not exactly a stunning prophecy – all cities eventually fall. That’s as much a “prophecy” as me saying, “In the future, our country will go through a period of great prosperity, followed by a down-turn and hard times.”

Inevitable truths can’t be prophecies.