The Satanic or Diabolic Nature of the Occult and Practices Related to the Occult

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Then you do not believe in the Gospel.

Would be a real pity if the devil actually did, as the Judge would have no problem throwing the book at you at this point, seeing as you, yourself, have said, “I have not one leg to stand upon the claim ‘the devil made me do it’.”

Certainly not necessarily, but when was the last time a demon inhabited your body ?

Or by prayer and God’s grace.

I sure hope not !

Well +1 for physchological exorcisms, then !

So you don’t believe in the Gospel or the Old Testament.

Christians aren’t supposed to practice magic, so I hardly have reason to believe God wants us to believe in magical anything 🙂 You might want to read the OT or the NT before throwing it out the window.

You’re rambling now. Frankly, you don’t actually believe in anything except yourself.

And you became a Freemason on… ?

Nonsense. Jesus made no qualms about it : if you do not believe in the Scriptures, and the Prophets, then you cannot believe in Him, or anything He did. Playing surgeon with the Scriptures risks cutting vital organs away from the Body, at which point it loses any efficaciousness. You claim to “believe” in what Jesus said and did : I charge you merely agree with Him at certain points.

Yes, of course he is a scapegoat. Again, if you read the Scriptures you would know that Satan certainly is a “scapegoat,” the ritualistic meaning of which I am pretty sure you don’t understand judging by what followed in the rest of your rant / post.

Pax,
Tim
Peace to you friend.
 
Yo AT, if I may, I suggest a book you might find interesting:

Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans by Malachi Martin. I’ve read parts of it, honestly its amazing and freaky.

I also have a kind of off-topic question for you. Do you believe in the mind’s ability to alter the body’s shape/appearance? This isn’t New Age or religious, but I’ve heard of this (theoretical) phenomena just recently and wanted to get a skeptic’s take on it.
 
I just want to add here that many scholars argue that Christianity assimilated many aspects of pagan religions while establishing itself at that conference in which Christ’s divinity was decided upon, etc. It was necessary.

Christian celebrations were timed around the old pagan ones, because people were used to celebrating at those times anyway. Early Christians also converted pagans by saying that the image of the pagan God was actually the image of the devil (horns), and by demonising the Gods.

Therefore it can be argued that the idea of “satantic occult” is actually a throwback to ancient propaganda used as a last resort in order to convert pagans to Christianity. Telling pagans that they were actually worshipping an evil entity/false God/something sinful was, could be argued, a legitimate way of converting people, but it also demonises something which involved no worship of any devil.

The idea of pagans worshipping the devil is absurd anyway. The devil is a being in a Christian religion, not pagan. Therefore when people say they worship the devil, they are simply repeating ancient propaganda.

I am by no means saying that pagans worship legitimate Gods, but I am saying that they were definately not satanic in nature - for that would be to assume that they had some Christian ideas, which they did not. They believed in nature, and that nature cannot be evil or good, but well - itself.
 
Yo AT, if I may, I suggest a book you might find interesting:

Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Contemporary Americans by Malachi Martin. I’ve read parts of it, honestly its amazing and freaky.
Well, I appreciate your desire to send me some good reads, but ghost stories collected in a book that obviously has a vested interest in presenting these tales as supernatural are not terribly convincing.

I would much prefer to see levitation and various possession-related phenomena in controlled settings that make sure its not trickery.
I also have a kind of off-topic question for you. Do you believe in the mind’s ability to alter the body’s shape/appearance?
Do you mean, like, shape-shifting? No, I don’t, but I would if you are able to demonstrate it in controlled conditions, which you obviously could if it’s real.
 
I just want to add here that many scholars argue that Christianity assimilated many aspects of pagan religions while establishing itself at that conference in which Christ’s divinity was decided upon, etc. It was necessary.

Christian celebrations were timed around the old pagan ones, because people were used to celebrating at those times anyway. Early Christians also converted pagans by saying that the image of the pagan God was actually the image of the devil (horns), and by demonising the Gods.

Therefore it can be argued that the idea of “satantic occult” is actually a throwback to ancient propaganda used as a last resort in order to convert pagans to Christianity. Telling pagans that they were actually worshipping an evil entity/false God/something sinful was, could be argued, a legitimate way of converting people, but it also demonises something which involved no worship of any devil.

The idea of pagans worshipping the devil is absurd anyway. The devil is a being in a Christian religion, not pagan. Therefore when people say they worship the devil, they are simply repeating ancient propaganda.

I am by no means saying that pagans worship legitimate Gods, but I am saying that they were definately not satanic in nature - for that would be to assume that they had some Christian ideas, which they did not. They believed in nature, and that nature cannot be evil or good, but well - itself.
This again?

Is Catholicism Pagan?

catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp

Pagans came in different varieties. Nature worship was only one aspect. Sometimes, nature would do bad things.

God bless,
Ed
 
This again?

Is Catholicism Pagan?

catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp

Pagans came in different varieties. Nature worship was only one aspect. Sometimes, nature would do bad things.

God bless,
Ed
That article doesn’t prove anything. It simply says “There is no resemblence because we say so!”

Sorry, but the fact is this - Christian celebrations just “happen” to be around the same time as pagans celebrations. Justification for it by Aquinas did not come until after the dates for Christian celebrations had been set (e.g. Christmas). The Bible does not state a date for Jesus’ birth, therefore it is perfectly reasonable to make Christmas near a date pagans already celebrate.

If you want more evidence for paganism and Christianity to be related just do a quick google search on comparative religion. It makes sense for them to have similiarities because, quite simply, Christians came across Europe assimilating the pagans into their religion. Why is it strange to think that when the early Christians met pagans they used aspects of paganism to draw similarities between the two religions to encourage pagans to convert?

And again, nature never does “bad” things. We only percieve them as bad because they have negative results for us. Nature is simply indifferent and does what it does to keep balance. And that’s not just a pagan idea.

I’m disappoionted that CAF’s position is that paganism is not related to Christianity at all when it so blatently is. Especially as it does not cite any unbiased proof or historical studies/documentation.
 
Well, I appreciate your desire to send me some good reads, but ghost stories collected in a book that obviously has a vested interest in presenting these tales as supernatural are not terribly convincing.
Sore, like I said, it’s only a suggestion! Either way, the stories themselves are very interesting, even if you reject them as true.
I would much prefer to see levitation and various possession-related phenomena in controlled settings that make sure its not trickery.
There’s a different book where a good portion of the events happen in a hospital, and in a documentary on a case like this the boy spends time in a mental institution, but I’m not sure that either counts and/or is of interest to you.
Do you mean, like, shape-shifting? No, I don’t, but I would if you are able to demonstrate it in controlled conditions, which you obviously could if it’s real.
Its sort of like that, it’s like “mini shape-shifting” the reason I question you on it is because the author of a book I recently read offered it as a possible (naturalistic, I might add) explanation of stigmata, citing that some have literally *thought away acne *as an example it is possible, but I just wanted to get a skeptic’s view on the idea. Like I said, its off-topic, so I’m not going to discuss it further.
 
OK, I haven’t read every post in this thread because my attention span and dedication to reading that much is not all that great. With that said, I will tell you my story.

At 8 years old, I started to realize I had some gifts. I still went to church every Sunday, catechism and confirmation courses, and was the best in my class. I wanted answers as to why people had these gifts and I guess people were too lazy to explain it to me, because i was just told it was of the Devil. I spent quite a few years wanting to be closer to God, praying and being in the choir but it just did not work for me then. Perhaps the Church I went to just wasn’t suitable.

Anyway, I was bullied for many years for other reasons, which slowly made me depressed. I still had an interest in divination, so I slowly took that up, read a few psychic books, and stayed far away from the Wiccan books, out of fear. I slowly lost my faith in God and wasn’t sure any god existed at all. I also eventually took yoga in high school.

By the time I was 15, I was hanging out with other disenchanted friends who had become a part of the goth scene. The rest of my friends were wannabe gangbangers and sluts. I think the only proper people I went to school with were snobs, so just about everyone was just lovely. 😛 One of my slut friends, who happened to be Catholic said to me, “Why are you hanging out with these people? Don’t you believe in God?” It pissed me off that she would generalize such a thing, so I decided to say, “Well, maybe I’m Wiccan.” About 15 minutes later, she jumped me, along with my other slut friends.

I then decided, well, maybe I should read up on Wicca and maybe I should curse my slut friend, since she likes being a slut and feels she’s superior to everybody else. (this is the last time I’ll say slut in this post, don’t worry.) What happened from there is, I started reading Wiccan books, and I discovered a religion that wasn’t about cursing people, but a religion that had it’s own karmic laws.

Now, I could go into a conversation about all of the positive things that are in the Wiccan religion, but that might upset you guys. Talking about positive things means someone might feel tempted and writing horror stories is more affirming. I love reading stories from people like Schoebellen, who like to write stories about how he had rituals and fire shot you at him, and it burned his arm in the shape of a hoof and all that sensationalist garbage.

This is what I know. Wicca provided a lot of temporarily uplifting spiritual experiences. And those experiences did absolutely nothing positive for my life. The Devil isn’t about special effect. The devil is subtle and does not want anyone to know he exists. That’s how he can best influence all. Not only did I study Wicca, I studied under a coven. I also co-led a Wiccan open circle, that created a “family friendly” environment for all. Why did i do this? Because I felt that there were some covens that were too secretive, that encouraged things that young people should not feel they “should” be a part of. I felt that people should become wise on their own spiritual journey. The coven I had trained with was run by a bellydancer and a science fiction buff, the former with a degree in history and the latter with a degree in philosophy. Neither actually believed in Gods but loved the ritual aspect of Wicca. Neither had a stable job but people came to them for guidance in droves.

When i co-led the circle, I was in my mid-twenties. I was already having issues with depression at this point and also experiencing anxiety. I was also trying to finish college and work a fulltime job, barely being able to focus on anything. I would have people twice my age coming to me for advice and admiring me, not knowing about anything going on in my life and it disgusted me. I’d have people who were homeless, coming to ritual, participating in classes and events they didn’t really need, losing their jobs, coming to me for advice on what to do. I’d try to point them to housing services and apartments they could afford, and they’d always makeup an excuse as to why it isn’t viable, even though they have kids. They would rather stay in people’s living rooms than take a step forward.

I worked with one High Priestess who was a real estate broker, who wasn’t making money and wasn’t all that happy, always having bill collectors call her home.

We worked with another High Priestess who, was the most wretched creature I’ve ever met. She asked us to help her sell her home, which she had a million dollar debt over. Why? Because she mortgaged the house she inherited, to buy a Wiccan shop.

One day she got paranoid and started a “witch war” with us, which is basically a feud where two witches or witch groups slander each other to the community, and maybe even do spells to hinder the progress of the other.

Yes, it’s against the Wiccan Rede to curse others because of karma but that doesn’t mean witches do not curse others.

There are a lot of good people in Wicca. People full of good intentions, but they are misguided. Please don’t judge them and call them Satanists. There is a difference between consciously worshiping Satan and being deceived.

At the same time, that whole thing about Wiccans not worshiping Satan is a lie. The vast majority of Wiccans worship Celtic, Greek, Roman, Norse or Egyptian gods. But there is nothing in Wicca that says you cannot worship Hindu gods, Shinto gods, Native spirits or Satan. There are, in fact, a few who do proudly worship Satan. Again, I say they are the minority. And there are a few subtle things in Wicca that did come from Aleister Crowley, the father of modern Satanism.
 
Anyway, throughout the years, my powers became more powerful, but obviously, Satan was controlling my life. I could feel the energy of everything around me. I was at the point where I could sit on campus studying and feel the energy of EVERY SINGLE person within 3 yards of me. I would feel energy constantly leaving he crown of my hand and fingers. I couldn’t concentrate and it was just awful. I studied energy work. One day i was siting on the bus and said to myself, I wish i could just borrow the energy of that chatty person sitting in front of me. I focused and saw a stream of energy leave her and enter into me, and she started yawning. I started studying up on it and decided that I had learned “psychic vampirism.” There are actually books on this, but i think the naming is just a new labeling for something not all that difficult.

I eventually cut myself off from the circle, deciding that I needed to deal with my life. That didn’t enable me to fix my life. I just became more and more of a hermit, not wanting to be around anyone, confining myself to my home. I had a few jobs but they did not workout for me, either by sheer bad luck or being too miserable to stand it anymore. I started spending a lot of time just playing online games, where I met a lot of horrible, miserable people. I had gotten to the point where I was depressed and feeling muscular-skeletal pain throughout my body and not being able to even check my email sometimes without breaking down crying and having to take a nap. I finally decided to start going to a psychiatrist, who put me on meds, which have been very helpful, but not perfect.

Among all that, I met a few Christians in my games and other places who were always very kind to me and supportive. I decided that for pure educational reasons and curiosity, I’d start reading the Bible, so I could decide not what the Church thinks, but what I think about God. And one day I just decided that I give up and let God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit takeover my life. And now I finally feel like I’m where I need to be. I’ve been going to St. Francis of Assisi and taking a lot of babysteps towards a better life. One of those steps is registering for this forum.

And I am absolutely terrified that Satan will find his way back into my life, or try to use my sister to hurt me. And I’m absolutely terrified for all the young girls and boys who might have felt the way I felt when I was 8 or growing up. I am horrified to think that they could waste their life on a journey into livingdeath and an afterlife in Hell.

I ask you, all of you, to please, please, please, please, if you have a child, do not let this happen to them! Please! :nope: It’s a life full of power, it is, it’ a life full of ritual, it is, it’s a life full of community, it is.

But it’s also a life that cannot bring contentment, and it’s a life that will not bring you to Heaven.

If your children have questions about their gifts, please1 Please! Explain it to them. Please, take them to a priest or anyone who can put their mind at ease.

Please. If your children are being bullied, please find a way to keep Jesus in their life. They need him more than ever.

Please! If you know someone who is Wiccan or Pagan, do not treat them as if they are not equals. Do not treat them with judgment or hate. They need you more than you know. They need you to be there as a living example of what the Holy Trinity can do! Be patient with them and pay for them.

Dymphna
 
So you came to Wicca as an emotionally unwell teen and then surrounded yourselves with practitioners who were even more damaged, and I’m supposed to accept your unhappy outcome as evidence that Wicca must therefore be Satanic?:confused:
 
Any religion that does not worship the one God is helping the devil unintentionally. Wicca also encourages practices that are not good for the soul, that I feel should be avoided.

Religion, in and of itself is supposed to aid us in our everyday lives and our spirituality. The vast majority of Wiccans I knew, from the ages 13-66 were mentally unstable or completely miserable. And then you have the fluffbunny type of people who just go around thinking they knew everyone in a past life and checking astrology to see if it’s ok to do pretty much anything on any given day.

I wish I didn’t feel compelled to say any of this. I used to think that all religions were paths to the same. I was wrong.

I don’t like it when I read stories where people say that Wiccans commit sacrifices, which may be a Pagan practice for non-Wiccans but is not a practice for Wiccans. I don’t like to read people act like as if Wiccans are not human. Wiccans are human like everybody else, but I am worried for them.

If people wish to be Wiccan, that’s fine. I can’t stop anyone. My bestfriend is an Atheist and I’m not going to try and witness to her. But…if there are people who are currently Christian, I want them to try not to go down that path.

You don’t have to believe anything. You have freewill. But God has helped me these past few weeks more than anything else has. That is more the point to my story than anything. There are so many people who have gone down this deep downward spiral and have been helped so much this way. I never thought I’d make a post like this, really. I thought that i was going to go well into my golden years as a high priestess and build a Wiccan community center. But things don’t always go as expected.

I’m still slowly telling people I know that I’ve made this important decision. I am sorry if my enthusiasm upsets anyone. People like me used to really **** me off when I was Pagan and i would debate them, just as you seem to be debating me now.
 
Hi Dymphna!!

I totally agree with you about Wicca and Pagan spirituality! I came across it, during my discovery of my spirituality. With the pagan spirituality, I had come to discover was far from devil worshipping!

My spirituality was embracing the works of our Almighty God, and as well as other Gods from past and present religions who are called Ascended Masters (they are never worshiped to but they help us in life, just like our Saints), along with the Archangels and Angels. All very Christian based.

I discovered this spirituality, by asking Archangel Michael and Raphael for help and protection in the first place after a disturbing dream. Since then, I have asked them, the other Angels, the Ascended Masters, Jesus, Mother Mary and of course God for light, love and assistance.

To be honest, I do not know where I would be today if it wasn’t for my pagan past, but my best guess would in a very dark place. It has taken one year for my to make my decision 100% to be Catholic, and during the past year and a half, my life has been extremely turbulent.

Therefore, my pagan past SAVED me from the Devil and helped me discover God, and his greatness, and hence I am becoming Catholic; To be closer to God, Jesus and Mother Mary, 👍
 
That’s an interesting way to think about it. Where exactly would I be if i had not become Pagan? Would i have the complete, full connection I have with the Holy trinity that i have now? I’m not sure. Maybe our hardships do strengthen us.

I do hope to meet other former Pagans here. That’s something I am looking for. There are so many Christians who have never studied Pagan beliefs or only dabbled in it when they were in high school. Trying to do a love spell or use a ouija board one night does not mean you were Pagan. 😛

I have a ton of statues and books staring at me and I’m trying to figure out what to do with them. I think Paganism became a huge part of my identity. I got attached to pretty much every item I bought. LOL.

I’ve never heard of the Ascended Masters. I’ll look that up.
 
Exactly, I believe it was my pagan past that saved me in the long run. Brought me out of the darkness, and gave me the courage, love and support I needed to step into the light. 🙂

I have never done any spells, and the Ouija board is one thing I will NEVER touch! I have been in the presence of one, when two old friends used it. The whole time I was praying to Archangel Michael to protect us from evil…I sat almost on the other side of the room too.

I have 2 Angel statues, I have my first one, which I call my Guardian Angel, and one of Archangel Raphael. I wish to buy statues of all the Archangels, Michael, Gabriel and Uriel. 🙂 They are lovely.
 
I bought a ouija board once from this Ebay seller who made custom boards. I didn’t want the Parker Brothers type or anything typical looking. It had a big pentagram on it and the letters were in Theban. They don’t even make em anymore. But i had to have it all special.

What happened, I’d rather not go into, but… I wound up trading that $50 board in for a bottle of mixed oils just to get rid of it.

Never had issues with astrology, runes or tarot, but I intend to stop using them just to avoid tempting myself.
 
I just pray that I do not get attacked for my pagan past, I have been other times I have mentioned it on these forums. But that is because people do not know the reasons for my pagan past…and it is something I am thankful for!! With out it, I would not be here 🙂 🙂

I have only used Oracle Cards, all of which relate back to the Angels and Archangels. They are only used for guidance…and I have only used them on myself. I refuse to use them on others. I am attached to them, because of the angels - the pictures of them are beautiful. my decks relate to Archangel Michael and Raphael. I love just looking at the pictures now 🙂
 
This whole “ascended masters” thing is a New Age thing and as a former practitioner of the New Age, it really gives me the creeps. Personally, I would strongly recommend staying away from anything and everything that even REMOTELY resembles the New Age!
 
I have a connection with my “New Age” stuff, as it is significant part of my connection with heaven, God, and especially the Angels. I have asked the Angels for help and assistance, even more than Ascended Masters…so I only have Angelic statues by the way.

Without them, both the statues and my spiritual connection I established with them from my past…I would most likely be in a very very dark place. So to me they resemble the light and glory of God, and the development of my spirituality.

I hope my past reasons of my paganism gets across. 🙂 🙂 As it SAVED ME from the devil…I hope people can see that.

I love my Angel statues - always have, and have every intention of keeping them. As they are Archangels of Christianity too: St Michael, St Gabriel, and St Raphael. 🙂
 
Ah, yes. I checked with one of my friends who is helping me out a bit and checked on Wikipedia. It appears to be a part of Theosophy. I never studied Theosophy but I was rather curious about it. The Theosophical Society has an office or something on the lobby floor of the building the real estate school I went to.

I don’t think it would be a good idea for me.

I’m still here for you, Ashurie, though. 🙂
 
I have a connection with my “New Age” stuff, as it signify’s my connection with heaven, God, and especially the Angels. I have asked the Angels for help and assistance, even more than Ascended Masters…so I only have Angelic statues.

Without them, both the statues and my spiritual connection I established with them from my past…I would most likely be in a very very dark place. So to me they resemble the light and glory of God, and the development of my spirituality.

Other’s may see it as a bad thing, but that is their opinion. And I will not tell them otherwise…but I have a connection with them, and I love them because they have served a huge, life-saving purpose to me…and will keep my Angel stuff 🙂
Hi Ashurie. You have the right to believe in whatever you want. 🙂 However, I personally will stay far away from anything like this. I have had some bad experiences with the New Age and such as I have described in previous posts. I will not go into it again right now I can, from personal experience, say that I don’t recommend getting involved in this sort of thing.
 
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