The science delusion

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normally i dont just share yt videos, but this guy brilliant. every atheist should watch this if they wish to be cured :cool:
as well as every Christian who wants build a strong argument for God.
youtube.com/watch?v=Ix2PX7KKSG4
 
normally i dont just share yt videos, but this guy brilliant. every atheist should watch this if they wish to be cured :cool:
as well as every Christian who wants build a strong argument for God.
youtube.com/watch?v=Ix2PX7KKSG4
I sadly don’t have the time to sit through an one hour and a half video. Can you summarize his main arguments and thesis, and point to minutes of the video for further information about particular developments ? Thanks 🙂
 
I sadly don’t have the time to sit through an one hour and a half video. Can you summarize his main arguments and thesis, and point to minutes of the video for further information about particular developments ? Thanks 🙂
Sadly, I feel the same way. I’ve got a busy day ahead of me. A summary would be nice.
 
normally i dont just share yt videos, but this guy brilliant. every atheist should watch this if they wish to be cured :cool:
youtube.com/watch?v=Ix2PX7KKSG4
Might be putting the cart before the horse. One would first need to be convinced that she is “sick” before she develops the desire to be cured.

Also it might help if there were videos shorter than an hour and 25 minutes to capture and build up interest enough to motivate one to sit through the video. The length of the video alone may be a turn off for some one that wasn’t prepared to sit that long.

Perhaps sharing time markers and lengths of a few points you wanted to highlight would be more effective.
 
normally i dont just share yt videos, but this guy brilliant. every atheist should watch this if they wish to be cured :cool:
as well as every Christian who wants build a strong argument for God.
youtube.com/watch?v=Ix2PX7KKSG4
Excellent, illustrates what I have known for a long time - the closed mind and dogmatism of the governmental/media/academic/scientific complex. Blows holes in much of non-believers basic assumtions. A perfect illustration of the closed/dogmatic comments seen in a few posts here and throughout this forum. Those who deny the existence of the Christian God and His nature do so only on the most dogmatic and blind faith. The exact but incorrect accusation they hurl at Christians.

Yes, Christianity is built on faith and there are a number of dogmas one must hold to be a faithful Christian but this belief and these dogmas are not at all unreasonable, and only a handful require absolute faith ( but even these are not unreasonable in that God cannot lie, nor do the Scriptures lie). Indeed many can be demonstrated as true by the use of philosophical reasoning - but of course this type of knowledge is rejected per se by reason of the closed mind set non-believers operate from. It threatens their dogmatic faith principles - the principle one being reject the Christian argument on every point which contradicts their world view in the slightest way. That is the summation of their argument.

👍
 
Excellent, illustrates what I have known for a long time - the closed mind and dogmatism of the governmental/media/academic/scientific complex. Blows holes in much of non-believers basic assumtions. A perfect illustration of the closed/dogmatic comments seen in a few posts here and throughout this forum. Those who deny the existence of the Christian God and His nature do so only on the most dogmatic and blind faith. The exact but incorrect accusation they hurl at Christians.

Yes, Christianity is built on faith and there are a number of dogmas one must hold to be a faithful Christian but this belief and these dogmas are not at all unreasonable, and only a handful require absolute faith ( but even these are not unreasonable in that God cannot lie, nor do the Scriptures lie). Indeed many can be demonstrated as true by the use of philosophical reasoning - but of course this type of knowledge is rejected per se by reason of the closed mind set non-believers operate from. It threatens their dogmatic faith principles - the principle one being reject the Christian argument on every point which contradicts their world view in the slightest way. That is the summation of their argument.

👍
👍👍👍
 
So I watched the whole video, and I’ve written up a rough outline of what was said. It’s not verbatim, the spelling is probably off at points, and it’s only what I felt were the essentials.

[The first six minutes is an introduciton of Dr. Sheldrake.]

Materialism is the orthodoxy of science. It’s in conflict with free inquiry. Most scientists don’t see this as a belief system. It’s something they pick up during their education.

He turns the dogmas of materialism and turns them into questions.

10 dogmas of materialism:
  1. Nature is mechanical/machine-like.
  2. Matter is unconscious
  3. The amount of matter and energy in the universe is always the same. (Conservation of energy)
  4. The laws of nature are fixed (always the same), from the big bang, to the present, to ever after. The constants of nature remain fixed (like the speed of light).
  5. Nature is purposeless.
  6. Biological inheritance is material.
  7. Memories are stored in the brain and are wiped out at death.
  8. Mental activity is brain activity.
  9. Psychic phenomena are impossible.
  10. Mechanist medicine is the only kind that really works.
1st dogma:
Mechanistic theory wasn’t always the dominant theory. Back in medieval times Thomas Acquinus taught that all living beings have souls. Animals have souls which give them their instincts and behavior. Men have an animal soul and an intellectual soul.

For the founding fathers of modern science in the 16/17th century they were all christian. They thought by treating nature as machines that they were enhancing God, since it would then show it was designed by an outside force (God). It created a mechanistic theology. “God designed the world machine.” Machines don’t have purposes on their own, unlike things like horses who have minds of their own.

But now we’re in a new worldview. The big bang theory became dogma around 1966. They thought of the universe as a primal egg. BBT was opposed by most scientists before then because it was seen as a creation event and/or a Catholic conspiracy.

But then the evidence became overwhelming so scientists had to accept it. Why can’t living organisms be living organisms and not machines? We realize that it’s just a metaphor and it doesn’t fit. Even David Hume was skepitcal about the machine theory of nature. We don’t have to believe it.

2nd theory
Descartes theory about dualism. Humans were special and were the only ones with rational brains. He thought animals were just machines and he pioneered vivication without anaesthesia. That attitude still persists in factory farming today.

19th century, mechanist attitude became predominant. Materialists didn’t like the idea of spiritual and non-spiritual, and they say everything is unconscious. It is inheritantly atheistic. The problem is we have consciousness in an unconscious universe. This is called the hard problem. Materialist philosophers have several options: 1) Consciousness doesn’t exist. We talk about it but the only real thing is neuroscience. 2) consciousness is excreted by the brain but it doesn’t do anything. 3) Consciousness is an illusion that has a useful role.

All of these doesn’t explain consciousness.

Behaviorism says we will measure physical reactions and ignore consciousness.

Cognitive neuroscience says that the mind is just a computer.

That’s been superceded by the idea that humans have emotions and effects thinking [chortling]

Panpsychism was a controversial but growing theory that conciousness evolved, and really it’s just dualism like the folks in the middle-ages taught.

Continued in the next post
 
Part 2

20th century Alfred Lord Whitehead said that animals were better thought of as organisms instead of machines. He also says that electrons have mental life, which are expressed as attractions. They’re not just neutral stuff. He also felt that the bonds between the body and the mind were in time, with the mental pole is the future and the physical pole is in the past. They coexist in your mind. When they planned to arrive at his talk it was in the future, and when it’s actually done it becomes fact. Dr. Sheldrake finds it an interesting theory.

Could the sun be conscious? Could the whole universe be conscious? In Hinduism, they credit the sun for illumination. The Greeks and people all over the world see it as a living being. Children do it and draw the sun with a smiley face. But most adults don’t think that way because it’s taboo to do so.

What if there is a galactic mind and a purpose? This is all off-limits to materialists and they only work to disprove it instead of considering it.

How can you prove the universe is not conscious?

3rd dogma
This is the shakiest dogma of the 10. This is not something established by experimentation but is a post-hoc statement made in ancient Greece. Materialists took that and said that all matter is atoms and they can’t be destroyed. 1850s different types of physicists came together and made the 1st law of thermodynamics, conservation of energy, but it’s all based on the assumption that this is true. The problem is that scientists couldn’t figure our how galaxies interact. There is far less mass seen then expected. How do you account for the fact that there is far too much gravitational force based on the amount of mass. Dark matter was theorized because it made the equations work. They don’t know what it is.

If we just change the laws of gravitation then we don’t have to worry about it, but then it means there is no conservation of energy. With dark matter, the universe should stop expanding and then contracting. But they found in the 1990s that the farthest stars are accelerating away even more, so scientists say there is another form of energy called dark energy. This is all an act of faith.

Zero point field creates virtual photons. Maybe we can tap into that energy, and many inventors claim they can tap into it. But then when they try to get investors they get laughed at. Why won’t these big science companies invest in something that could change the world and the economy? There should be a prize for these inventors to create these kinds of infinite energy machines. These companies won’t give a fair and open test because it’s a taboo.

4th dogma
In 19th century the constants being constant made sense, but the big bang theory throws it into doubt. Were these constants there at the moment of the big bang? Did they appear from nowhere? He claims that having all the energy and matter of the universe and all of the constants coming from nothing (SIGH!) would be a miracle. Why can’t the natural laws evolve? Man’s laws evolved. His theory is that the laws of nature aren’t laws but habits. Electrons and protons have habits. When these interactions first happened there were no laws or habits, they were and then eventually became habits. He said he has more detail in his book.

He looked at the speed of light and it dropped 20km/s between 1928 and 1945 and then it went up again. People measured it all around and the world and there were slight errors. He discussed it with the head of the National PHysical Laboratory and asked if it’s possible that the speed of light dropped. The head dismissed it by saying that it’s not possible because it’s a constant. He thinks all of the constants fluctuate slightly.

5th dogma
Evolution is blind chance and materialists use this to attack non-materialists.

6th dogma
It’s just a theory that all inheritances are material. He theorizes that heredity comes from collective memory of each species.

[Video cuts out and comes back with an audience member asking a question]

Audience member: How far can we go in proving that something is true?

Response: The idea that an experiment must be repeatable is an assumption of the scientific method. He said that’s because there is an assumption that the laws of nature are the same at all times and places. But if morphic resonance is happening, then different results will occur which science often cites as random error. But we can still do science. Can we prove that people have empathy and can tell when certain people are about to call them on the phone? Science now says that this is just superstition – that we forget all the times we were wrong and only remember the times that we are right. But he is testing this now and he invites people to test this online. He describes a telepathy test which should have a 50% success rate that has a 60% success rate.

Angry audience member: You grossly misrepresent your position right from the start by referring to the laws of science as dogmas. You are against the empirical method.

Response: Science has dogmas. He runs into dogmatists all the time. He describes arguments with some scientists where he argues about changing melting points where sceintists aren’t open that he might be right. If you bring up these concepts to your scientist friends you will see how dogmatic they are.

[The rest is his discussion of his various scientific theories.]
 
I sadly don’t have the time to sit through an one hour and a half video. Can you summarize his main arguments and thesis, and point to minutes of the video for further information about particular developments ? Thanks 🙂
Try this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Sheldrake#Morphic_field

I find his accent impenetrable at the best of times and this isn’t the best sound recording I ever heard.

This is correct:
Response: Science has dogmas. He runs into dogmatists all the time. He describes arguments with some scientists where he argues about changing melting points where sceintists aren’t open that he might be right. If you bring up these concepts to your scientist friends you will see how dogmatic they are.
Science is, by nature, conservative and static. It is by necessity, exploratory and dynamic. Most people working in sciences learn what they are taught are facts and regurgitate them and base conclusions on them.

But science has only ever advanced when someone has committed “scientific heresy.” Gone beyond and been, generally, villified for it.

Sheldrake says “science claims there is no telepathy.” This is not correct. Science in the persons of a growing number of highly credentialed researchers are absolutely certain telepathy is a human trait which has been demonstrated beyond any real doubt. The job now is to figure out how it works.

But eye-rolling at telepathy is scientific dogma, and few in scientific fields will simply take the time to read the data. Nor will they simply be quiet and declare the fact: “I don’t know.”

This is really what Sheldrake has been fighting for: scientific freedom. This is what happens when you are brilliant and an excellent researcher and can’t get published or get the stodgy fundies to examine the data.

There are rather a lot of scientists who are in this position now, pushing the edges where the real discoveries and advances are made. Like Darwin or Galileo, they face public rejection as well as scientific ostracism.

I think a lot of his theories are wrong, but he’s right about a great deal. He’s right about research being repressed.
 
Thanks a lot for summarising that for me. I have a few remarks and questions that I am going to address to you as if you were Dr. Sheldrake, for convenience. It is more directed to people agreeing with the video than directly to you.
He turns the dogmas of materialism and turns them into questions.
10 dogmas of materialism:
  1. Nature is mechanical/machine-like.
  2. Matter is unconscious
  3. The amount of matter and energy in the universe is always the same. (Conservation of energy)
  4. The laws of nature are fixed (always the same), from the big bang, to the present, to ever after. The constants of nature remain fixed (like the speed of light).
  5. Nature is purposeless.
  6. Biological inheritance is material.
  7. Memories are stored in the brain and are wiped out at death.
  8. Mental activity is brain activity.
  9. Psychic phenomena are impossible.
  10. Mechanist medicine is the only kind that really works.
1-2/ I can’t see the difference between these two. They are equivalent statements. If you want to attribute something to objects or humans, you first have to define it. If you provide a clear, precise definition of consciousness, then we can derive a test that we can apply to anything and say “this is conscious” “this is not”. What is “being aware ?”. This is very fuzzy, and useless from a strict scientific point of view. There is no reason to assume the galaxy is intelligent in some way. So we assume it is not until the day we see unexplainable patterns in its structure coherent with a form of intelligence. A principle of science is to not assume useless entities and to stick to the facts.

3/ This is simply plain wrong in the frame of General Relativity. Conservation of energy doesn’t always strictly apply.
As for dark matter, it is probably one of the most controversial scientific concepts in modern science in the eyes of the public. If you see muddy footsteps magically appearing on the floor in your house, objects being thrown around and your cat running into an invisible obstacle, you’re going to say “there is an invisible man in my house”. Yes, Dark matter was first theorized to explain galaxy rotations, but since then, we confirmed the existence of an invisible and massive something leaving clear patterns in cluster collisions, and leaving holes in the cosmological background. Three independant physical phenomenon all explained by the same thing. We don’t know what it is yet, but relativity works REALLY well, and changing gravity laws could maybe solve the galaxy rotation problem, but not the cluster collision.
I don’t know much about dark energy, but I know it is far from being a fully accepted dogma in science. The problem is that nobody can come up with something to replace it.
Zero-point energy is interesting, and maybe it will emerge one day if it is possible. In the meantime, science and technology is made by humans. Humans are flawed, and great thinkers often are persecuted for their ideas. It is sad and shouldn’t be so, but there is not much we can do except trying to be as much open minded as we can.

4/ Scientists are actually investigating this. They are searching for variations in the planck constants in the early universe, because that would suggest interesting new physics. Nothing has been found yet. Can you provide a link to a paper reporting that change in light speed ? Considering creationnists are always ready to remind life wouldn’t be possible without the fine-tuning of constants, you might find some people here quite hostile to this idea.
5/I’m sorry, what is he defending here ?
6/ I guess this comes from the morphic field theory ?

Questions:

If he throws away reproducibility, science is not coherent anymore. I don’t see his point.

Yes, as I said, scientists are human and are sometimes afraid of change. However, they probably accept change much easily than most humans. Simply because they build their lifework on the concept of refutability. They are flawed human, but compared to the rest of mankind, pretty open-minded flawed humans.
 
Might be putting the cart before the horse. One would first need to be convinced that she is “sick” before she develops the desire to be cured.
According to Christian belief, we are “created sick, commanded to be sound,” as Fulke Greville put it - and as Hitchens loved to remind us.
 
Excellent, illustrates what I have known for a long time - the closed mind and dogmatism of the governmental/media/academic/scientific complex. Blows holes in much of non-believers basic assumtions. A perfect illustration of the closed/dogmatic comments seen in a few posts here and throughout this forum. Those who deny the existence of the Christian God and His nature do so only on the most dogmatic and blind faith. The exact but incorrect accusation they hurl at Christians.
Yes, scientists hold on to beliefs that have been won by research, experiment and explanation - but in principle, science is open to revision. Scientific revolutions almost always have to battle against the human tendency to hold to some semblance of ‘certainty’, but in general, the evidence wins out. The same cannot be said about religion - religious ‘revolutions’ tend to create whole new sets of religious beliefs, leaving their predecessors intact as opposing forces. Not even young-earth creationism has been abandoned in favour of more informed positions.

This is the key difference between a scientific worldview and a religious worldview - the latter is not in principle open to any revision - it relies upon adherence to dogma in a way that science cannot.
 
Part 2

20th century Alfred Lord Whitehead said that animals were better thought of as organisms instead of machines. He also says that electrons have mental life, which are expressed as attractions. They’re not just neutral stuff. He also felt that the bonds between the body and the mind were in time, with the mental pole is the future and the physical pole is in the past. They coexist in your mind. When they planned to arrive at his talk it was in the future, and when it’s actually done it becomes fact. Dr. Sheldrake finds it an interesting theory.

Could the sun be conscious? Could the whole universe be conscious? In Hinduism, they credit the sun for illumination. The Greeks and people all over the world see it as a living being. Children do it and draw the sun with a smiley face. But most adults don’t think that way because it’s taboo to do so.

What if there is a galactic mind and a purpose? This is all off-limits to materialists and they only work to disprove it instead of considering it.

How can you prove the universe is not conscious?

3rd dogma
This is the shakiest dogma of the 10. This is not something established by experimentation but is a post-hoc statement made in ancient Greece. Materialists took that and said that all matter is atoms and they can’t be destroyed. 1850s different types of physicists came together and made the 1st law of thermodynamics, conservation of energy, but it’s all based on the assumption that this is true. The problem is that scientists couldn’t figure our how galaxies interact. There is far less mass seen then expected. How do you account for the fact that there is far too much gravitational force based on the amount of mass. Dark matter was theorized because it made the equations work. They don’t know what it is.

If we just change the laws of gravitation then we don’t have to worry about it, but then it means there is no conservation of energy. With dark matter, the universe should stop expanding and then contracting. But they found in the 1990s that the farthest stars are accelerating away even more, so scientists say there is another form of energy called dark energy. This is all an act of faith.

Zero point field creates virtual photons. Maybe we can tap into that energy, and many inventors claim they can tap into it. But then when they try to get investors they get laughed at. Why won’t these big science companies invest in something that could change the world and the economy? There should be a prize for these inventors to create these kinds of infinite energy machines. These companies won’t give a fair and open test because it’s a taboo.

4th dogma
In 19th century the constants being constant made sense, but the big bang theory throws it into doubt. Were these constants there at the moment of the big bang? Did they appear from nowhere? He claims that having all the energy and matter of the universe and all of the constants coming from nothing (SIGH!) would be a miracle. Why can’t the natural laws evolve? Man’s laws evolved. His theory is that the laws of nature aren’t laws but habits. Electrons and protons have habits. When these interactions first happened there were no laws or habits, they were and then eventually became habits. He said he has more detail in his book.

He looked at the speed of light and it dropped 20km/s between 1928 and 1945 and then it went up again. People measured it all around and the world and there were slight errors. He discussed it with the head of the National PHysical Laboratory and asked if it’s possible that the speed of light dropped. The head dismissed it by saying that it’s not possible because it’s a constant. He thinks all of the constants fluctuate slightly.

5th dogma
Evolution is blind chance and materialists use this to attack non-materialists.

6th dogma
It’s just a theory that all inheritances are material. He theorizes that heredity comes from collective memory of each species.

[Video cuts out and comes back with an audience member asking a question]

Audience member: How far can we go in proving that something is true?

Response: The idea that an experiment must be repeatable is an assumption of the scientific method. He said that’s because there is an assumption that the laws of nature are the same at all times and places. But if morphic resonance is happening, then different results will occur which science often cites as random error. But we can still do science. Can we prove that people have empathy and can tell when certain people are about to call them on the phone? Science now says that this is just superstition – that we forget all the times we were wrong and only remember the times that we are right. But he is testing this now and he invites people to test this online. He describes a telepathy test which should have a 50% success rate that has a 60% success rate.

Angry audience member: You grossly misrepresent your position right from the start by referring to the laws of science as dogmas. You are against the empirical method.

Response: Science has dogmas. He runs into dogmatists all the time. He describes arguments with some scientists where he argues about changing melting points where sceintists aren’t open that he might be right. If you bring up these concepts to your scientist friends you will see how dogmatic they are.

[The rest is his discussion of his various scientific theories.]
You got that in one viewing? A+++ 👍
 
According to Christian belief, we are “created sick, commanded to be sound,” as Fulke Greville put it - and as Hitchens loved to remind us.
Ah, so human life is a sexually transmitted disease.
 
Might be putting the cart before the horse. One would first need to be convinced that she is “sick” before she develops the desire to be cured.

Also it might help if there were videos shorter than an hour and 25 minutes to capture and build up interest enough to motivate one to sit through the video. The length of the video alone may be a turn off for some one that wasn’t prepared to sit that long.

Perhaps sharing time markers and lengths of a few points you wanted to highlight would be more effective.
i just want to point out that i too disagree with most of sheldrakes beliefs. my world view is actually what he refers to in the video as a “kantian dualism”. i wont elaborate on that now. but sheldrake’s main points are spot on.
scientism/ materialism is just as much a superstition as they claim religion to be.
 
Yes, scientists hold on to beliefs that have been won by research, experiment and explanation - but in principle, science is open to revision. Scientific revolutions almost always have to battle against the human tendency to hold to some semblance of ‘certainty’, but in general, the evidence wins out. The same cannot be said about religion - religious ‘revolutions’ tend to create whole new sets of religious beliefs, leaving their predecessors intact as opposing forces. Not even young-earth creationism has been abandoned in favour of more informed positions.

This is the key difference between a scientific worldview and a religious worldview - the latter is not in principle open to any revision - it relies upon adherence to dogma in a way that science cannot.
what research? where is the research that has determined that “all that is” is matter? its a dogma, and a silly one at that. anyone with basic philosophical knowledge knows from the get go that materialism is false.
if you adhere to materialism you cannot explain the origins of the universe. since something cannot come from nothing, and infinite regression is equally as impossible. sorry, but you “enlightened” materialists fall flat on you faces when its time to discuss the big questions like the cause of existence. so you ignore that problem and go after uneducated redneck creationists to appear smarter by contrast.
 
Yes, as I said, scientists are human and are sometimes afraid of change. However, they probably accept change much easily than most humans. Simply because they build their lifework on the concept of refutability. They are flawed human, but compared to the rest of mankind, pretty open-minded flawed humans.
No, most seriously, they are not. I worked with a lot of scientists in my life, they are as a whole a rather immature, narrow-minded, and ego maniacal bunch who “build their lifework” on some single aspect of a field topic and then defend it like a mother lion defending a cub. They are almost totally ignorant of anything outside their narrow framework.

When someone challenges their dogma, especially if it’s a bit they themselves promulgated, what is threatened is their very livelihood. Scientists can spend a whole career never drawing a salary, but living on grants. Once you have shown that what they taught is wrong, they have no career.
 
No, most seriously, they are not. I worked with a lot of scientists in my life, they are as a whole a rather immature, narrow-minded, and ego maniacal bunch who “build their lifework” on some single aspect of a field topic and then defend it like a mother lion defending a cub. They are almost totally ignorant of anything outside their narrow framework.

When someone challenges their dogma, especially if it’s a bit they themselves promulgated, what is threatened is their very livelihood. Scientists can spend a whole career never drawing a salary, but living on grants. Once you have shown that what they taught is wrong, they have no career.
As a scientist (a biochemist), also having lots of experience with my scientist colleagues, I have to agree with the general thrust of your statement. I have seen time and again that, when a good amount of data show in one direction, scientists are less than willing to fairly consider evidence that finally undermines that trend (and I have had some pretty exasperating discussions with them when that was the case). Yet the degree of unwillingness to change one’s mind differs between scientists.

The idea that science is this always beautifully self-correcting *) human enterprise, practiced by always beautifully open-minded and undogmatic individuals, is a myth.

Yet in the end, science does arrive at generally accepted theories that each have stood up to an immeasurable number of tests (and yes, the theory of evolution is just as accepted among scientists as the atomic theory or the theory of relativity; it is not a product of a conspiracy, but based on mountains of evidence.)

*) For example, I share with many the belief that string theory is false (read Smolin’s The Trouble with Physics for good reasons why that would be so). There has been no shred of evidence for it so far, but an immense number of scientists are so invested in the theory (or to be more correct, hypothesis) that it will take a lot of time for this anomaly to be self-correcting. It is unprecedented in the history of science that a hypothesis is basically unverified for 40 years, and still accepted as being in the scientific mainstream.
 
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