G
guanophore
Guest
We know of certain persons who are there, because God has revealed that to us. However, you are right, about those of whom it is not revealed, we do not know.
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F
FightingFat
Guest
There’s scriptural references in the Catholic Canon. The Book of Maccabees has clear references to prayers for the dead, and Jesus clearly refers to these books, for example
Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17. Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28
Where do you get your canonicity from? Did the Bible provide its own canonical authority? It seems pretty clear that there is no way in which the canon of the scripture can be determined from internal evidence, ie from the books themselves. In some other way, it must be the community of God’s people and/ or its accredited representative which determine what books are canonical! A problem for protestants theologians admitted by Karl Barth! Protestants can only say the Canon of Scripture itself is not established beyond doubt.
Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17. Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28
Where do you get your canonicity from? Did the Bible provide its own canonical authority? It seems pretty clear that there is no way in which the canon of the scripture can be determined from internal evidence, ie from the books themselves. In some other way, it must be the community of God’s people and/ or its accredited representative which determine what books are canonical! A problem for protestants theologians admitted by Karl Barth! Protestants can only say the Canon of Scripture itself is not established beyond doubt.
W
water
Guest
Well, for one thing, we have so many cannonized Saints who do marvalous works while being in Heaven. The Church does know that. 
J
joshua_b
Guest
What verse is it that tells us we are to pray to God alone ? I know of quite a few verses dealing with eternal life, sharing in God’s glory, and being alive in Christ, but I don’t recall a verse saying that we are to only pray to God.
The big problem most non-Catholics/Orthodox have with the veneration of and prayers to the Saints is that they lack the proper sense and form of worship contained in the mass, so they have come to equate “prayer” with “worship” because that is as close as they can get. The other problem they have is that most of them (IMHO) lack a proper sense of the Holiness and Deity of God.
Personally, I don’t think the issue is that we give too high an honor to Mary and the rest of the Saints, but rather that they (those who have such an issue with this) have too “low” an esteem for God and His Holiness. I recently grew tired of defending the practice of honoring and praying to Mary and the other Saints, and now simply suggest that rather than our lowering our view of the Saints they should elevate their view of God. Noone with a proper sense of the omniscience, omnipotence, and holiness of God could really confuse the praise and worship that He is due with the veneration given to the members of the Church Triumphant.
The big problem most non-Catholics/Orthodox have with the veneration of and prayers to the Saints is that they lack the proper sense and form of worship contained in the mass, so they have come to equate “prayer” with “worship” because that is as close as they can get. The other problem they have is that most of them (IMHO) lack a proper sense of the Holiness and Deity of God.
Personally, I don’t think the issue is that we give too high an honor to Mary and the rest of the Saints, but rather that they (those who have such an issue with this) have too “low” an esteem for God and His Holiness. I recently grew tired of defending the practice of honoring and praying to Mary and the other Saints, and now simply suggest that rather than our lowering our view of the Saints they should elevate their view of God. Noone with a proper sense of the omniscience, omnipotence, and holiness of God could really confuse the praise and worship that He is due with the veneration given to the members of the Church Triumphant.
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Read Revelation where the prayers of the saints are offered up to God.
Do you think these saints are praying for themselves–why? they’re already in heaven.
And if they’re in heaven making supplication for us do you think they don’t hear us and pray for us?
And Peter prayed to Tabitha after she was dead and she rose from the dead.
Do you think it wasn’t God’s will for Peter to pray for that dead person?
Do you think these saints are praying for themselves–why? they’re already in heaven.
And if they’re in heaven making supplication for us do you think they don’t hear us and pray for us?
And Peter prayed to Tabitha after she was dead and she rose from the dead.
Do you think it wasn’t God’s will for Peter to pray for that dead person?
G
guanophore
Guest
I can’t find one either. The only thing I can imagine is that it is being confused with worship.
Have you been to an Orthodox Mass? I think you are wrong about proper sense and form of worship. I think you would find that the Orthodox have a much more proper sense than NOvus Ordo Catholics. I also recommend that you subscribe to the Eastern Saints thread on this forum,and you will find that the Eastern Rites treat SAints the same way we do.
I think you hit this right on. Jesus wants for all of us what He did for Mary. We undersestimate the divine plan.
B
Bishopite
Guest
On the issue of the Eastern Orthodox, you are incorrect, they properly venerate the Saints, ask them to pray for them in the correct sense as Catholics. And they do have a valid Eucharist so they have valid worship as they have valid sacramental orders through Apostolic succession. I think you’ve lumped Protestants in with EO’s which isn’t accurate, I’m afraid.
The Bible is replete with verses for the Saints, Rev 5:8, 8:3-4, Mt 17 at Jesus’ transfiguration where Moses and Elijia are seen “conversing” with Jesus so they obviously know what’s going on with Peter and James.
James 5:16 “The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.” Being Moses and Elijah are “righteous persons” and they are according to Mt 17 “in heaven” and are shown “conversing” with Jesus, then it is reasonable and evident to say that the Saints in heaven hear our prayers and intercede for us as did both Elijah and Moses.
I
Icarus210
Guest
The Body of the church is in 3 places, all inter-related… as in ONE BODY. The church Militant which is us here on earth, The ones in purgatory, and the saints in heaven… we are all one and same body, each connected spirtually. Hence there is a prayerful communication between all 3. We can help the souls in pergatory, The saints can help us… and then there is Mary, the outlet for all graces…
Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with Thee.
Blessed are thou amongst women and
Blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Just something to think about, A priest can do 2 things Mary cant. 1 Absolve sin, 2 Bring our Lord onto this earth every day he says Mass.
Hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with Thee.
Blessed are thou amongst women and
Blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Just something to think about, A priest can do 2 things Mary cant. 1 Absolve sin, 2 Bring our Lord onto this earth every day he says Mass.
S
Swiss_Guard
Guest
The Bible also doesn’t have the word Trinity.
So I guess there isn’t one God in three Persons. If this is the case, then why do Protestants worship a human being, because Jesus can’t be God since there is no Trinity.
So I guess there isn’t one God in three Persons. If this is the case, then why do Protestants worship a human being, because Jesus can’t be God since there is no Trinity.
F
fellowChristian
Guest
1 Timothy 2
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all,** supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;**
Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
**James 5:16 **
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Matthew 5:44
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and **pray for them **which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
**Romans 15:30 **
30Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me** in your prayers to God for me;**
2 Corinthians 9
12For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
13Whiles by the experiment of this ministration **they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men; **
14And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.
15Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
**Hebrews 1:14 **
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
**Revelation 5:8 **
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
**Revelation 8:3-4 **
3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the **prayers of all saints **upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
Is that enough? Or are you thirsty for more?
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all,** supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;**
Hebrews 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
**James 5:16 **
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Matthew 5:44
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and **pray for them **which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
**Romans 15:30 **
30Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me** in your prayers to God for me;**
2 Corinthians 9
12For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
13Whiles by the experiment of this ministration **they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men; **
14And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.
15Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
**Hebrews 1:14 **
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
**Revelation 5:8 **
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
**Revelation 8:3-4 **
3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the **prayers of all saints **upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
Is that enough? Or are you thirsty for more?
F
fellowChristian
Guest
Honoring the Saints, Relics, and Images
For, behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. (Luke 1:48)
Brethren, be imitators of me, and mark those who walk after the pattern you have in us. (Philippians 3:17)
Thou shalt not have strange Gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. (Exodus 20:3-4)
- Does the first commandment forbid us to honor the saints in heaven?
For, behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. (Luke 1:48)
- Why do we honor the saints in heaven?
- How can we honor the saints?
Brethren, be imitators of me, and mark those who walk after the pattern you have in us. (Philippians 3:17)
- When we pray to the saints what do we ask them to do?
- How do we know that the saints will pray for us?
- Why do we honor relics?
- When does the first commandment forbid the making or the use of statues and pictures?
Thou shalt not have strange Gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. (Exodus 20:3-4)
- Is it right to show respect to the statues and pictures of Christ and of the saints?
- Do we honor Christ and the saints when we pray before the crucifix, relics, and sacred images?
- Do we pray to the crucifix or to the images and relics of the saints?
L
Le_jardin
Guest
The Catholic Church without prayers to saints…how very, very silly!
:whacky:
:whacky:
A
Athanasiy
Guest
It wouldn’t bother me if in the house , which was build with so hard work and achievements , the house which was build with a hope and a dream to live in it ;and it would happen , that suddenly I would reveal that I do not like the color of the wall or the structure of the window.
So what ?
Should I destroy the house ?
Should I just take the hammer and destroy the whole house , in order to build some thing new ?
Ok.
The prayers to the saints can not be in agreement with my understanding of the Scripture.
But I can not separate from the Church just because of this reason.
I can not cut the tree, on which I am siting , just because, I have found the branch which seems unpleasant to me , it is unwise, Right ?
So what ?
Should I destroy the house ?
Should I just take the hammer and destroy the whole house , in order to build some thing new ?
Ok.
The prayers to the saints can not be in agreement with my understanding of the Scripture.
But I can not separate from the Church just because of this reason.
I can not cut the tree, on which I am siting , just because, I have found the branch which seems unpleasant to me , it is unwise, Right ?
S
SyCarl
Guest
It is quite clear that Jesus is not referring the the books of the Maccabees in Matthew 24:15 since He specifically refers to the prophet Daniel. So what He is referring to is the abomination spoken of in Daniel 9:27.
The reference to paraying for the dead in 2 Maccabees is not with respect to praying to the saints in heaven. Even with respect to purgatory it does not support Catholic doctrine since those who were being prayed for wore pagan emblems and were idolaters. That is a mortal sin so they would not be in purgatory.
With respect to the canon, what authority does the Church have to determine canon? How do we know that the Church has infallible authority? You can’t use the Bible because we don’t know what it is before the Church establishes it. So how do we know the Church has infallible authority except on its own say so?
S
SyCarl
Guest
You are reading into Revelation the Catholic definition of the saints. In the Bible the saints are everyone who believe. The prayers in Revelation are those of the saints on earth.
S
SyCarl
Guest
Where is there a verse that tells us to pray to anyone other than God? Or where is there any example of someone praying to anyone other than God?
S
SyCarl
Guest
It is quite clear that Jesus is not referring the the books of the Maccabees in Matthew 24:15 since He specifically refers to the prophet Daniel. So what He is referring to is the abomination spoken of in Daniel 9:27.
The reference to paraying for the dead in 2 Maccabees is not with respect to praying to the saints in heaven. Even with respect to purgatory it does not support Catholic doctrine since those who were being prayed for wore pagan emblems and were idolaters. That is a mortal sin so they would not be in purgatory.
With respect to the canon, what authority does the Church have to determine canon? How do we know that the Church has infallible authority? You can’t use the Bible because we don’t know what it is before the Church establishes it. So how do we know the Church has infallible authority except on its own say so?
S
SyCarl
Guest
But the Bible does show us the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and that all are God. It also tells us God is one. The Trinity is in the Bible but not by name. Of course what we call the doctrine is not important, itis the content of the doctrine that is, as that is clearly Biblical.
J
JW10631
Guest
The Scriptures do not have to tell us to ask for intercession through prayer from the community of saints in Heaven.
The Scriptures are not a “blueprint” for the Church. The New Testament comes from the Catholic Church, not the other way around.
The Scriptures are not a “blueprint” for the Church. The New Testament comes from the Catholic Church, not the other way around.
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