The Seal of Virginity

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Jon, are you in RCIA? If so, can you ask your director these questions? I asked my spiritual director and she said we’ll talk about it a couple days, when I see her next.

I also asked my Bible study teacher, a theologian who used to teach at the seminary and she believes Jesus was born like we all were born.

I’m interested in what your RCIA director would have to say.
Yes, I will ask, it came up once before around Christmas as one of the lay catechists said that Mary did not give birth Jesus just appeared, and people started to question, and it just got deflected to not derail the class. I am pretty certain he will say it is pious tradition but not dogma and up for debate since the church has not infallibly declared one way or the other.

I think I will try and call in on Catholic Answers Live on Thursday to ask Jimmy Akin about this. If I can’t on Thursday I will next Tuesday for the Open Forum.

I feel like I just heard an answer in the last few week regarding it, but I am not sure where to find it now. The answer from the apologist was as I remember;
  1. Genesis says that the pains are intensified not created by the curse regarding child bearing.
  2. That Mary most likely “gave birth” the way everyone gives birth
  3. the protoevangelium of James, although interesting and giving us a picture of early Christian thought, is not scripture and should not carry the same weight.
 
Jon S.

You said:
Second, God did say that pain would be magnified in child birth not created in childbirth. Here is the text in several translations for you to chew on.
You missed the whole point of what I was saying (and Rence may have been trying to reiterate).

My point was due to Adam and Eve’s sin, there was a curse associated with childbearing. This curse resulted in difficulties in childbearing that otherwise were not there.

Without Original Sin, there would have been something BETTER for EVE in childbirth than what she experienced.

If that was true for mere Eve and her mere natural births, . . . . how much MORE true would that have been for the Blessed Virgin Mary and Jesus, neither of which personally possessed the curse of Eve?

To what extent “more” we don’t know from these verses (but do from others) but we wouldn’t expect it to be just like the woman next-door, or up in labor and delivery, or whatever.

I wasn’t using this as a direct “proof” for Mary’s *in partu inviolability *(I use other teachings for that). I was only using this as an *a fortiori *argument.

You might deny it the a fortiori aspect. Deny it if you will. But you are still left with the Scriptures and 2000 years of Church teaching to reconcile.

Do yo affirm those teachings or deny them?

Faith1960. You said:
NONE of this is written in a creed.
So what do you think the Church’s teaching has been concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary’s in partu inviolability (Blessed Mary’s Virginity, EVEN in the act of childbearing)?

Once you assert the Church’s teaching, then you are left with:

Is this an “optional item”? Is that your argument?

Am I going to deny this because when the Creeds refer to the “Virgin” Mary, but they didn’t dissect the extent of “virgin” deep enough in your opinion?

Is that what you are saying (that you “won’t believe it unless it is explicitly in a Creed”). If that’s the case, which Creed says, “unless something is stated explicitly in a Creed, it is an optional item”?

Or don’t you think the Church even teaches the Blessed Virgin Mary’s in partu inviolability?. Please clarify.
 
That Mary maintained physical integrity during and after the birth of Jesus is dogma. The birth itself was miraculous. The virgin birth is dogma.

The Early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, Encyclicals and Councils all agree. Mary’s virginity was not just spiritual or in her heart but physical.

There are too many quotes to list.

-Tim-
 
Jon S.

You said:

You missed the whole point of what I was saying (and Rence may have been trying to reiterate).

My point was due to Adam and Eve’s sin, there was a curse associated with childbearing. This curse resulted in difficulties in childbearing that otherwise were not there.

Without Original Sin, there would have been something BETTER for EVE in childbirth than what she experienced.

If that was true for mere Eve and her mere natural births, . . . . how much MORE true would that have been for the Blessed Virgin Mary and Jesus, neither of which personally possessed the curse of Eve?

To what extent “more” we don’t know from these verses (but do from others) but we wouldn’t expect it to be just like the woman next-door, or up in labor and delivery, or whatever.

I wasn’t using this as a direct “proof” for Mary’s *in partu inviolability *(I use other teachings for that). I was only using this as an *a fortiori *argument.

You might deny it the a fortiori aspect. Deny it if you will. But you are still left with the Scriptures and 2000 years of Church teaching to reconcile.

Do yo affirm those teachings or deny them?

Faith1960. You said:

So what do you think the Church’s teaching has been concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary’s in partu inviolability (Blessed Mary’s Virginity, EVEN in the act of childbearing)?

Once you assert the Church’s teaching, then you are left with:

Is this an “optional item”? Is that your argument?

Am I going to deny this because when the Creeds refer to the “Virgin” Mary, but they didn’t dissect the extent of “virgin” deep enough in your opinion?

Is that what you are saying (that you “won’t believe it unless it is explicitly in a Creed”). If that’s the case, which Creed says, “unless something is stated explicitly in a Creed, it is an optional item”?

Or don’t you think the Church even teaches the Blessed Virgin Mary’s in partu inviolability?. Please clarify.
It seems to me you miss the point not me, I understand fully what you say, but you read your view into all of the quotes you present.

For example:

Why can Mary not be a Virgin after giving birth?

Why can’t Mary experience a normal birth as God intended in the Garden of Eden, which had a painful side to it, a blessed pain of giving new life, not agony but strain.

Why can’t God have Christ delivered vaginally and naturally and still miraculously preserve Mary’s virginity?

you can’t answer any of those questions with anything but an opinion.
 
That Mary maintained physical integrity during and after the birth of Jesus is dogma. The birth itself was miraculous.

-Tim-
Please present the dogma in direct quote that says this.

(hint you might be looking a while)
 
That Mary maintained physical integrity during and after the birth of Jesus is dogma. The birth itself was miraculous. The virgin birth is dogma.

The Early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, Encyclicals and Councils all agree. Mary’s virginity was not just spiritual or in her heart but physical.

There are too many quotes to list.

-Tim-
Are you saying Jesus’ placenta and umbilical cord disappeared when he was born? If not, where did it go?
 
Luke 2:7
And she GAVE BIRTH to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.
Mary DID give birth to Jesus. The question is HOW did she give birth to Jesus. “Like everyone else” OR was it “a virginal birth”? That is the question.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and BEAR a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
The “and” in Isaiah 7:14 is a conjunction. This means a virgin conceives a child but it ALSO means a VIRGIN BEARS a child.

Matthew 2:1
Now after Jesus was BORN in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem,
See Luke 2:7

Athanasius
“Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that he took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary” (Discourses Against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).
The Son, Jesus, DID take human flesh from the blessed Virgin Mary. Jesus has a Divine nature and a human nature. In His human nature He took flesh from the Blessed Virgin Mary. But notice St. Athanasius describes Mary as EVER-Virgin.

EVER Virgin. A virgin in conceiving, a virgin in bearing, and remains a virgin. This is what EVER Virgin means.

Pope Leo I
“His [Christ’s] origin is different, but his [human] nature is the same. Human usage and custom were lacking, but by divine power a Virgin conceived, a Virgin bore, and Virgin she remained” (Sermons 22:2 [A.D. 450]).
Notice:
a Virgin conceived
**a Virgin bore **
and Virgin she remained

“Aeiparthenos” or “ever-Virgin” concerns all three characteristics of the following
  • Mary was a Virgin in Conceiving Jesus
  • Mary was a Virgin in Bearing Jesus
  • Mary Remains a Virgin For The Rest Of Eternity
Cyril of Alexandria

"[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin . . . .

Jesus took flesh of the Virgin Mary. (Jesus is the “New Adam”. Contrariwise Eve was made of the flesh of Adam).
“[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly he was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing” (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
**and came forth from her a man . . . **

Jesus DID come forth a man. Jesus is True God AND True Man.

But the question is HOW did Jesus come forth.

Fortunately that same St. Cyril of Alexandria tells us:

“Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin”
AND THE ICING ON THE CAKE
Pope Siricius I
“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).
"You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born . . . .

The concern here is the Blessed Virgin Mary allegedly having other kids. Since Mary is a Perpetual Virgin the thought of this IS horrifying.

Pope Siricius I is the one who Oked Bishop Bonosus being removed from his see for denying Mary’s Perpetual Virginity.

Bishop Bonosus started to propagate this idea of Mary having other children (just like Helvidius did).

The Council of Capua was called in 391 A.D. to investigate Bishop Bonosus concerning these new teachings (met in 392 A.D.). These Bishops turned it over to other Bishops who stripped Bonosus of his faculties over this issue of denying the Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

In the late 300’s A.D., St. Ambrose probably wrote to appeal to Bishop Bonosus and unpacked the Ezekiel Closed Gate Prophecy over this (if you want I can provide more details). We have St. Ambrose’s writings about the Closed Gate Prophecy.

At this point, it is clear that the Church thought it was unacceptable to DENY Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. A Bishop (Bonosus) was deposed not by a Pope ALONE but by a group of Bishops (the WHOLE GROUP who already knew the CORRECT teaching concerning Mary’s Perpetual Virginity).

This thrusting from office of Bishop Bonosus (no small matter) was then ratified by Pope Siricius who . . . .

**“ . . . approves the sentence and also condemns the opinion that Mary did not always preserve her virginity .” **

newadvent.org/cathen/02677b.htm

Pope Siricius I

“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).

When Pope Siricius talks about Jesus being born “according to the flesh” he is reaffirming Jesus as True God AND True man.

Then Pope Siricius later in the same paragraph matter of factly without any felt need to defend it, asserts Jesus as being “born of a virgin”.
 
Luke 2:7

Mary DID give birth to Jesus. The question is HOW did she give birth to Jesus. “Like everyone else” OR was it “a virginal birth”? That is the question.

Isaiah 7:14

The “and” in Isaiah 7:14 is a conjunction. This means a virgin conceives a child but it ALSO means a VIRGIN BEARS a child.

Matthew 2:1

See Luke 2:7

Athanasius

The Son, Jesus, DID take human flesh from the blessed Virgin Mary. Jesus has a Divine nature and a human nature. In His human nature He took flesh from the Blessed Virgin Mary. But notice St. Athanasius describes Mary as EVER-Virgin.

EVER Virgin. A virgin in conceiving, a virgin in bearing, and remains a virgin. This is what EVER Virgin means.

Pope Leo I

Notice:
a Virgin conceived
**a Virgin bore **
and Virgin she remained

“Aeiparthenos” or “ever-Virgin” concerns all three characteristics of the following
  • Mary was a Virgin in Conceiving Jesus
  • Mary was a Virgin in Bearing Jesus
  • Mary Remains a Virgin For The Rest Of Eternity
Cyril of Alexandria

"[T]he Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin . . . .

Jesus took flesh of the Virgin Mary. (Jesus is the “New Adam”. Contrariwise Eve was made of the flesh of Adam).

**and came forth from her a man . . . **

Jesus DID come forth a man. Jesus is True God AND True Man.

But the question is HOW did Jesus come forth.

Fortunately that same St. Cyril of Alexandria tells us:

“Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin”

"You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born . . . .

The concern here is the Blessed Virgin Mary allegedly having other kids. Since Mary is a Perpetual Virgin the thought of this IS horrifying.

Pope Siricius I is the one who Oked Bishop Bonosus being removed from his see for denying Mary’s Perpetual Virginity.

Bishop Bonosus started to propagate this idea of Mary having other children (just like Helvidius did).

The Council of Capua was called in 391 A.D. to investigate Bishop Bonosus concerning these new teachings (met in 392 A.D.). These Bishops turned it over to other Bishops who stripped Bonosus of his faculties over this issue of denying the Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

In the late 300’s A.D., St. Ambrose probably wrote to appeal to Bishop Bonosus and unpacked the Ezekiel Closed Gate Prophecy over this (if you want I can provide more details). We have St. Ambrose’s writings about the Closed Gate Prophecy.

At this point, it is clear that the Church thought it was unacceptable to DENY Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. A Bishop (Bonosus) was deposed not by a Pope ALONE but by a group of Bishops (the WHOLE GROUP who already knew the CORRECT teaching concerning Mary’s Perpetual Virginity).

This thrusting from office of Bishop Bonosus (no small matter) was then ratified by Pope Siricius who . . . .

**“ . . . approves the sentence and also condemns the opinion that Mary did not always preserve her virginity .” **

newadvent.org/cathen/02677b.htm

Pope Siricius I

“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).

When Pope Siricius talks about Jesus being born “according to the flesh” he is reaffirming Jesus as True God AND True man.

Then Pope Siricius later in the same paragraph matter of factly without any felt need to deny it asserts Jesus as being “born of a virgin”.
So define virgin birth

For me it means a woman gives birth to child after never having intercourse.

Mary was a Virgin as she never had intercourse. The fact that a child was in her womb at all could physically deny her virginity by your definitions right?!
 
Jon S.

You asked:
So define virgin birth
For me it means a woman gives birth to child after never having intercourse.
It IS that Jon but it is MORE than that.

I will pray about it and try to think about how I can better answer your question. Apparently so far I have failed miserably.

In the meantime, re-read the Church Fathers and Catechetical and Council quotes I put up. Re-read them several times and internalize them.

I didn’t put all those up to put down a proverbial hammer. I posted them (I actually have more) because I did so much time-consuming work on this and I wanted to save others from having to do all this homework.

If I post a bunch of quotes (as I did earlier) Catholic defenders (like you Jon S) can easily just copy and paste and save it in their “Perpetual Virginity of Mary” files and use it again when they need to.

I wanted to save other people who defend the Catholic faith who might be reading this (or anywhere else I post this kind of information) from having to do all the research that I did (so they can easily go even deeper).

The first time I heard “a virgin will conceive and bear a son” with the “and” in the sense of a conjunction I too was taken aback (Dr. Mark Miravalle expounded this for me thankfully). And the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. Then when I read the Fathers on this etc., it all affirmed this concept even deeper.

The various Eastern Orthodoxies all affirm this as well incidentally (at least all of them as far as I know).
 
Jon S.

You asked:

It IS that Jon but it is MORE than that.

I will pray about it and try to think about how I can better answer your question. Apparently so far I have failed miserably.

In the meantime, re-read the Church Fathers and Catechetical and Council quotes I put up. Re-read them several times and internalize them.

I didn’t put all those up to put down a proverbial hammer. I posted them (I actually have more) because I did so much time-consuming work on this and I wanted to save others from having to do all this homework.

If I post a bunch of quotes (as I did earlier) Catholic defenders (like you Jon S) can easily just copy and paste and save it in their “Perpetual Virginity of Mary” files and use it again when they need to.

I wanted to save other people who defend the Catholic faith who might be reading this (or anywhere else I post this kind of information) from having to do all the research that I did (so they can easily go even deeper).

The first time I heard “a virgin will conceive and bear a son” with the “and” in the sense of a conjunction I too was taken aback (Dr. Mark Miravalle expounded this for me thankfully). And the more I thought about it, the more it made sense. Then when I read the Fathers on this etc., it all affirmed this concept even deeper.

The various Eastern Orthodoxies all affirm this as well incidentally (at least all of them as far as I know).
I’d appreciate reading the information you’ve learned. Since coming onto CAF, I’ve come across A LOT of things I’ve had to research and I’m so tired of worrying about religion and spending hours on the internet doing research.
 
<<<<< Another quote I found somewhere:

Quote:
The Early Church Fathers are almost unanimous in the assertion that the birth was painless and had no loss of Mary’s virginal integrity during the birth. In other words, her Hymen didn’t break. St. Augustine said “Jesus passed through the womb of Mary as a ray of sun passes through glass.” Pope Martin in 649 AD defined the doctrine that Mary:

Conceived without seed, of the Holy Ghost
Generated without injury (to her virginity)
And her virginity continued unimpaired after the birth

This was confirmed by Pope Paul IV and many others before and after. If Jesus emerged from a sealed tomb, and passed through closed doors, surely he could pass through Mary’s womb without breaking her hymen and causing her pain. If pain is the punishment of original sin and birth pangs the first punishment at the fall (Gen 3) for Eve’s disobedience. It follows that Mary as the new Eve, who was obedient to God (Lk 1:38), would not have suffered giving birth to the “new Adam”. If Eve came out of Adam’s rib with no pain while he slept, it follows that Jesus (the new Adam) came out of Mary (the new Eve) without pain. >>>>

I can accept that her hymen didn’t break, or she gave birth without pain, what I can’t understand or accept is that there was no placenta, umbilical cord etc. in light of the fact that, as quoted earlier, she gave birth through the “natural channels.”
That her hymen didn’t break is I believe all we are required to accept. I have not heard of the other claims before and don’t think we need necessarily to accept them. They do not affect the dogma of perpetual virginity.
 
Yes, I will ask, it came up once before around Christmas as one of the lay catechists said that Mary did not give birth Jesus just appeared, and people started to question, and it just got deflected to not derail the class. I am pretty certain he will say it is pious tradition but not dogma and up for debate since the church has not infallibly declared one way or the other.

I think I will try and call in on Catholic Answers Live on Thursday to ask Jimmy Akin about this. If I can’t on Thursday I will next Tuesday for the Open Forum. .
Please let us know what he says.
 
That her hymen didn’t break is I believe all we are required to accept. I have not heard of the other claims before and don’t think we need necessarily to accept them. They do not affect the dogma of perpetual virginity.
Well, that’s what I thought until I read my link. 🤷
 
Father Ryan Erlenbush teaches (here) . . .

What does the Church mean by “virginity”?

In modern speech, we use the term “virginity” and “virgin” to refer to refraining from sexual intercourse. “Virginity” is considered entirely in moral terms, and is not related so much to a physical description of the womb of a woman. This is often called, “sex-act” virginity – a “virgin” is one (male or female) who has never had sexual relations.

The Church, however, does not use the word “virgin” in this sense, when speaking of our Lady. Certainly, we mean all that the modern usage means – our Blessed Mother never engaged in sexual relations – but we mean even more still. When the Church says that Mary is a “virgin”, we mean that Mary’s womb has never been opened.

Mary is a “virgin” because, speaking in very plain terms, the closure of her virginity (i.e. her hymen) has never been ruptured *. The womb of Mary is a sealed fountain, an enclosed garden, a cloister.

We may be a bit surprised to hear this – that “virginity”, in Mary’s case, means more than simple moral “virginity” but includes also this sense of physical integrity. Let us consider what this teaching would mean and why we must hold it.

Virgin “during birth”

The Church teaches that Mary was a virgin “in birth” (the Latin phrase is virginitas in partu). Consider the words . . . .

More of his article can be found here.

Monsignor Calkins (an official of the Vatican’s Ecclesia Dei for over 20 years) unpacks this more here.

Indeed, the mystery of the Incarnation, of which the virginitas in partu is an important facet, involves both Jesus and Mary according to God’s eternal plan and we have no right to diminish its grandeur simply because of our particular agendas, however desirable they may seem in themselves.

Faith1960. You said:
Ok, Mary carried Jesus in her womb for 9 months feeling Him moving around nourishing him via her body and then one day a 7, 8 or 9 lbs of human baby comes out of her and there is no placenta, no umbilical cord? Where did all that go? From where did He emerge?
This is the “sordes” I mentioned Fr. Jaki warning against earlier. These things are all part of the mystery. We don’t know about such things.

If a person insists on thinking of this in those terms, they will always be lowering a given supernatural event . . . . to a mere natural incident.

I suppose an atheist could employ the same principle and ask about when the Resurrected Jesus came to the Apostles in the Upper Room right through the door. The atheist could ask what happened to Jesus’ clothing? How about other things (i.e. dust on His tunic)? Did they not pass through the walls (the atheist might ask)?

The same principle applies. We can’t get caught up in admixing natural physical events with supernatural as these events are ABOVE reason (not contrary to reason but above reason). We are not told how God does such things. Nor should we be told.

That’s part of the motive why in my original answer I said we will sooner or later have to get down to the miraculous.

Someone can deny that. But then their issues are with the supernatural, not with the unbroken teachings. Their problem is their own incredulity. Not with what is taught.

Father Ryan Erlenbush expounds upon this concept a little more here and here.

Monsignor Calkins and Fr. Erlenbush’s information are both very good reads.*
 
Well, that’s what I thought until I read my link. 🤷
Where is this quote? I read your original link and didn’t see anything about that.

Also Jon S, I thought this was well described in the original link Faith1960 posted:
If the second part of defined doctrine does not refer to Mary’s physical virginity, why else would Pope St. Martin I specify her virginity during the birth? Surely it was not to guarantee that Mary was not experiencing any form of intercourse during the birth itself, a totally absurd, disrespectful, and absolutely unnecessary specification within the dogma. No, it was precisely to specify what Bl. John Paul II’s Theology of the Body makes clear: “the body expresses the person”. Mary’s Physical Virginity is a bodily expression of her perfect, interior virginity, in complete respect of the mystery of the Incarnation, and with the awareness that when one woman is to be both perfect Virgin and perfect Mother in relation to the one time historical event and mystery of the Word becoming Flesh, we have to expect exceptions.
This is the whole point I’ve been trying to make all long that you have refused to respond to yet. If by “virgin” the Church only means that Mary never had intercourse, then why mention at all that she was a virgin even in the act of giving birth? It would be irrelevant.
 
Father Ryan Erlenbush teaches (here) . . .

What does the Church mean by “virginity”?

In modern speech, we use the term “virginity” and “virgin” to refer to refraining from sexual intercourse. “Virginity” is considered entirely in moral terms, and is not related so much to a physical description of the womb of a woman. This is often called, “sex-act” virginity – a “virgin” is one (male or female) who has never had sexual relations.

The Church, however, does not use the word “virgin” in this sense, when speaking of our Lady. Certainly, we mean all that the modern usage means – our Blessed Mother never engaged in sexual relations – but we mean even more still. When the Church says that Mary is a “virgin”, we mean that Mary’s womb has never been opened.

Mary is a “virgin” because, speaking in very plain terms, the closure of her virginity (i.e. her hymen) has never been ruptured *. The womb of Mary is a sealed fountain, an enclosed garden, a cloister.

We may be a bit surprised to hear this – that “virginity”, in Mary’s case, means more than simple moral “virginity” but includes also this sense of physical integrity. Let us consider what this teaching would mean and why we must hold it.

Virgin “during birth”*

The Church teaches that Mary was a virgin “in birth” (the Latin phrase is virginitas in partu). Consider the words . . . .

More of his article can be found here.

Monsignor Calkins (an official of the Vatican’s Ecclesia Dei for over 20 years) unpacks this more here.

Indeed, the mystery of the Incarnation, of which the virginitas in partu is an important facet, involves both Jesus and Mary according to God’s eternal plan and we have no right to diminish its grandeur simply because of our particular agendas, however desirable they may seem in themselves.

Faith1960. You said:

This is the “sordes” I mentioned Fr. Jaki warning against earlier. These things are all part of the mystery. We don’t know about such things.

If a person insists on thinking of this in those terms, they will always be lowering a given supernatural event . . . . to a mere natural incident.

I suppose an atheist could employ the same principle and ask about when the Resurrected Jesus came to the Apostles in the Upper Room right through the door. The atheist could ask what happened to Jesus’ clothing? How about other things (i.e. dust on His tunic)? Did they not pass through the walls (the atheist might ask)?

The same principle applies. We can’t get caught up in admixing natural physical events with supernatural as these events are ABOVE reason (not contrary to reason but above reason). We are not told how God does such things. Nor should we be told.

That’s part of the motive why in my original answer I said we will sooner or later have to get down to the miraculous.

Someone can deny that. But then their issues are with the supernatural, not with the unbroken teachings. Their problem is their own incredulity. Not with what is taught.

Father Ryan Erlenbush expounds upon this concept a little more here and here.

Monsignor Calkins and Fr. Erlenbush’s information are both very good reads.

I haven’t read all your links yet, but I do love the information on New Theological Movement. According to Fr. Ryan Erlenbush, Mary’s virginity is defined as her hymen remaining intact. Nothing more. Nobody here is denying this.
 
Father Ryan Erlenbush teaches (here) . . .

What does the Church mean by “virginity”?

In modern speech, we use the term “virginity” and “virgin” to refer to refraining from sexual intercourse. “Virginity” is considered entirely in moral terms, and is not related so much to a physical description of the womb of a woman. This is often called, “sex-act” virginity – a “virgin” is one (male or female) who has never had sexual relations.

The Church, however, does not use the word “virgin” in this sense, when speaking of our Lady. Certainly, we mean all that the modern usage means – our Blessed Mother never engaged in sexual relations – but we mean even more still. When the Church says that Mary is a “virgin”, we mean that Mary’s womb has never been opened.

Mary is a “virgin” because, speaking in very plain terms, the closure of her virginity (i.e. her hymen) has never been ruptured *. The womb of Mary is a sealed fountain, an enclosed garden, a cloister.

We may be a bit surprised to hear this – that “virginity”, in Mary’s case, means more than simple moral “virginity” but includes also this sense of physical integrity. Let us consider what this teaching would mean and why we must hold it.

Virgin “during birth”*

The Church teaches that Mary was a virgin “in birth” (the Latin phrase is virginitas in partu). Consider the words . . . .

More of his article can be found here.

Monsignor Calkins (an official of the Vatican’s Ecclesia Dei for over 20 years) unpacks this more here.

Indeed, the mystery of the Incarnation, of which the virginitas in partu is an important facet, involves both Jesus and Mary according to God’s eternal plan and we have no right to diminish its grandeur simply because of our particular agendas, however desirable they may seem in themselves.

Faith1960. You said:

This is the “sordes” I mentioned Fr. Jaki warning against earlier. These things are all part of the mystery. We don’t know about such things.

If a person insists on thinking of this in those terms, they will always be lowering a given supernatural event . . . . to a mere natural incident.

I suppose an atheist could employ the same principle and ask about when the Resurrected Jesus came to the Apostles in the Upper Room right through the door. The atheist could ask what happened to Jesus’ clothing? How about other things (i.e. dust on His tunic)? Did they not pass through the walls (the atheist might ask)?

The same principle applies. We can’t get caught up in admixing natural physical events with supernatural as these events are ABOVE reason (not contrary to reason but above reason). We are not told how God does such things. Nor should we be told.

That’s part of the motive why in my original answer I said we will sooner or later have to get down to the miraculous.

Someone can deny that. But then their issues are with the supernatural, not with the unbroken teachings. Their problem is their own incredulity. Not with what is taught.

Father Ryan Erlenbush expounds upon this concept a little more here and here.

Monsignor Calkins and Fr. Erlenbush’s information are both very good reads.

I agree that they are good reads, but all the links you provided are addressing Mary’s intact hymen, her retaining her physical virginity. It says nothing about Jesus being born with no placenta or umbilical cord; nothing to suggest he suddenly popped out of Mary’s belly button or some such way that denies He arrived via the birth canal. In fact His being delivered via the birth canal is mentioned in the paragraph, “Did Jesus Open the Womb?” The authors are saying what Jon and have been saying all along.
 
I agree that they are good reads, but all the links you provided are addressing Mary’s intact hymen, her retaining her physical virginity. It says nothing about Jesus being born with no placenta or umbilical cord; nothing to suggest he suddenly popped out of Mary’s belly button or some such way that denies He arrived via the birth canal. In fact His being delivered via the birth canal is mentioned in the paragraph, “Did Jesus Open the Womb?” The authors are saying what Jon and have been saying all along.
Yes, I do believe this is the mainstream viewpoint

Here is the catholic answers radio link I mentioned earlier where Jimmy Akin discussed this.

catholic.com/radio/shows/open-forum-11037#

Listen to at least 25:00-37:00ish

He handles two calls. The first about Mary experiencing pain of childbirth where he says exactly what I said earlier regarding Genesis 3. That the pain would be magnified not created.

He then goes on to say the perpetual virginity dogma is not defined as how and exiting through the birth canal is a viable choice.
 
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