The second coming

[PBP]

I dont know if this has ever come up on this forum but here goes.
I have a friend who is Roman Catholic and leads an adult bible study in our parish. He has spent a lot of time studying Revelations. He studies much on his own and has listened to nationally known Catholic apologists speak on Revelations. He suggests the second coming of Christ has already happened but understands this is contrary to Christianity. His explanation goes: Jesus is born of the Virgin Mary and suffered, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and descended into hell to break the chains of death. (1st time on earth) Jesus then appears on the road to Emmaus and to the apostles and many others who are witnesses of his life on earth after his death. (2nd coming) Jesus then ascends to heaven and joins with the church triumphant. Seems there could be something to think about. What are some other thoughts ?

 

[DarkMark]

I dont know if this has ever come up on this forum but here goes.
I have a friend who is Roman Catholic and leads an adult bible study in our parish. He has spent a lot of time studying Revelations. He studies much on his own and has listened to nationally known Catholic apologists speak on Revelations. He suggests the second coming of Christ has already happened but understands this is contrary to Christianity. His explanation goes: Jesus is born of the Virgin Mary and suffered, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and descended into hell to break the chains of death. (1st time on earth) Jesus then appears on the road to Emmaus and to the apostles and many others who are witnesses of his life on earth after his death. (2nd coming) Jesus then ascends to heaven and joins with the church triumphant. Seems there could be something to think about. What are some other thoughts ?

Then your friend is going against The Roman Catholic Church teachings, for she never taught nor teach that the Second Coming alreadly happened. The first advent was when Jesus became flesh through the Most Holy Virgin Mary. The Second Coming will be at the end of age.

Your Catholic friend needs to read Scriptures. Tell him to abide to the Authority of Catholic Church which states He is wrong. Will your friend believe the Catholic Church?

 

[richardeekw]

Dear DarkMark

You are vague in saying that “known Catholic Apologists speak…”
If you and your Catholic friend, will provide the Apologist(s) names, it can certainly be verified.
Other such a discussion is one in “thin air” only.

I recommend you read
Rev. Peter Klien
The Catholic SourceBook, Third Edition, Brown—ROA, 2000.
Pg 127-128

 

[DarkMark]

Dear DarkMark

You are vague in saying that “known Catholic Apologists speak…”
If you and your Catholic friend, will provide the Apologist(s) names, it can certainly be verified.
Other such a discussion is one in “thin air” only.

I recommend you read
Rev. Peter Klien
The Catholic SourceBook, Third Edition, Brown—ROA, 2000.
Pg 127-128

??? I didn’t post this.

 

[Verbum]

HI PBP,

The bible does not use the term 1st or 2nd coming. So if your friend wants to call Jesus’ resurrection the 2nd coming, more power to him. But then he will have to believe in a 3rd coming at the end of the world. That we must believe. If he does not believe in the 3rd coming, then he is wrong.

Verbum

 

[PBP]

Then your friend is going against The Roman Catholic Church teachings, for she never taught nor teach that the Second Coming alreadly happened. The first advent was when Jesus became flesh through the Most Holy Virgin Mary. The Second Coming will be at the end of age.

Your Catholic friend needs to read Scriptures. Tell him to abide to the Authority of Catholic Church which states He is wrong. Will your friend believe the Catholic Church?

 

[PBP]

Then your friend is going against The Roman Catholic Church teachings, for she never taught nor teach that the Second Coming alreadly happened. The first advent was when Jesus became flesh through the Most Holy Virgin Mary. The Second Coming will be at the end of age.

Your Catholic friend needs to read Scriptures. Tell him to abide to the Authority of Catholic Church which states He is wrong. Will your friend believe the Catholic Church?

The conversation and thoughts of the original post have been between just the two of us and have not been suggested during the bible study he leads. His story of conversion of heart is quite remarkable. He does and continues to read scripture and teach adults in our parish according to the CCC. For you to ask whether or not" he would believe the Catholic Church" is an unfair assumption on your part. He is not wreckless or rebellious as you make it sound. Conversion and learning is an ongoing process.

 

[copland]

I find that to be interesting, but not valid. Especially since the NT authors who wrote about Jesus coming again, and wrote about it after He ascended into Heaven. One example is this

“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:11)

This was after the road to Emmaus.

St. Paul wrote this long after the road to Emmaus

“But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.” (Philippians 3:20-21)

Again

“Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

And again

“for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.” (1 Thessalonians 5:2)

Again

“May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

 

[PBP]

I find that to be interesting, but not valid. Especially since the NT authors who wrote about Jesus coming again, and wrote about it after He ascended into Heaven. One example is this This was after the road to Emmaus.

St. Paul wrote this long after the road to Emmaus

Again

And again

Again

Could the reference to those who had already fallen asleep refer to the christians who were murdered in the stadium for sport ? Doesnt Revelations reveal that some who were asleep were resurrected which may be a reference to these people ? Acts was written maybe 20 years before Revelations. Could this generation of people been the ones being written to ? Thankyou for your post. This is what I was looking for.

 

[copland]

PBP

Could the reference to those who had already fallen asleep refer to the christians who were murdered in the stadium for sport ? Doesnt Revelations reveal that some who were asleep were resurrected which may be a reference to these people ? Acts was written maybe 20 years before Revelations. Could this generation of people been the ones being written to ? Thankyou for your post. This is what I was looking for.

I am sorry, but I am unclear on how to answer. If you could be more specific I might be able to be a little more sure about how to answer. I assume that in Revelation are are referrring to Rev. 20:11-15 were especially when it says the sea gave up the dead… Or in 7:13 those in white robes who came out of the great tribulation? I don’t know if that is what you have in mind. Is it? These, I believe are those who are not only martyrs but all the people of the whole Church. Or maybe you are talking about Rev. 20:5-6 concerning the first resurrection? This is actually the spiritual resurrection that we recieve through baptism, since we were dead in our tresspasses and sins, but raised in Christ (Col. 3:1; Rom. 6:13).

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Christ has not already returned. In reading from the book of Revelations When the Lord returns he will come leading the Host of heaven. sin and death will be removed and and heaven and earth will but joined. That is a summation a lot of other things will happen as well but to answer your Question NO we still need to be ready and watching for His return.

Peace in the Lord

Scott

 

[DarkMark]

The conversation and thoughts of the original post have been between just the two of us and have not been suggested during the bible study he leads. His story of conversion of heart is quite remarkable. He does and continues to read scripture and teach adults in our parish according to the CCC. For you to ask whether or not" he would believe the Catholic Church" is an unfair assumption on your part. He is not wreckless or rebellious as you make it sound. Conversion and learning is an ongoing process.

If your friend whats to believe the 2nd Coming as alreadly happened, even though He has no support from Scriptures or Church teachings, then he is believing a lie. There is no such thing as “Three Comings of Jesus Christ”. That is what you should tell Him. All the Apostles talk about the second coming of Jesus Christ, but according to them, it will happened at the end of time. This can be easily learned by reading Scriptures.

The Catholic Church does not teach that the 2nd Coming of our Lord alreadly happened.

I will say it is interesting thought, but it is not a true.

 

[richardeekw]

I’m sorry DarkMark,

My response should not be directed to you.

 

[richardeekw]

Dear PBP

You are vague in saying that “known Catholic Apologists speak…”
If you and your Catholic friend, will provide the Apologist(s) names, it can certainly be verified.
Other such a discussion is one in “thin air” only.

I recommend you read
Rev. Peter Klien
The Catholic SourceBook, Third Edition, Brown—ROA, 2000. (with Imprimatur)
Pg 127-128

 

[wallabri]

Just one comment.
I hear so often the book of Revelations referred to.
It is the book of Revelation - not Revelations.

 

[Fidelis]

Just one comment.
I hear so often the book of Revelations referred to.
It is the book of Revelation - not Revelations.

Thanks for mentioning this wallabri – this is one of my pet peeves!

To the OP – it sounds like your friend may be just floating some ideas in terms that are probably helpful to him. I think I know what he means and you probably do too. As long as it’s just private musings, it’s probably OK. Technically, it is aberrant theology since, as noted, the Church teaches only one Second Coming at the end of time. but as long as your friend keeps it to himself, no harm, no foul.

Where it would become problematic, however, is if your friend took this personally helpful concept of his and started to believe it was such a great idea that he felt compelled to share it with others and maybe even insist on it. This is, in fact, how many heretics get started, including Martin Luther. At that point his helpful idea could possibly become a source of confusion for others, and thus of scandal, even in a small Bible study or other faith sharing group.

It sounds like he isn’t to that point, which is good. As his friend, however, you should be prepared to help him keep things in perspective if he ever does start heading that direction.

 

[jcrichton]

I dont know if this has ever come up on this forum but here goes.
I have a friend who is Roman Catholic and leads an adult bible study in our parish. He has spent a lot of time studying Revelations. He studies much on his own and has listened to nationally known Catholic apologists speak on Revelations. He suggests the second coming of Christ has already happened but understands this is contrary to Christianity. His explanation goes: Jesus is born of the Virgin Mary and suffered, died, and was buried, rose from the dead, and descended into hell to break the chains of death. (1st time on earth) Jesus then appears on the road to Emmaus and to the apostles and many others who are witnesses of his life on earth after his death. (2nd coming) Jesus then ascends to heaven and joins with the church triumphant. Seems there could be something to think about. What are some other thoughts ?

***Hi, PBP!

…don’t know of any Catholic, let alone an apologist, that believes that the Parousia has already taken place.

I know that there are many in the world that hold a myriad of beliefs and they claim that they are based on the Bible or some Christian (both Catholic and non-Catholic) doctrine.

Here’s a very specific text that you should study with your friend:

Look, he is coming on the clouds; everyone will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the races of the earth will mourn over him. Indeed this shall be so. Amen.*** (Apocalypse 1:7)

Jesus’ return will not be limited to a few select individuals. Even those who are dead from of old will witness His Coming!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[ryanoneil]

***Hi, PBP!

…don’t know of any Catholic, let alone an apologist, that believes that the Parousia has already taken place.

I know that there are many in the world that hold a myriad of beliefs and they claim that they are based on the Bible or some Christian (both Catholic and non-Catholic) doctrine.

Here’s a very specific text that you should study with your friend:

Look, he is coming on the clouds; everyone will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the races of the earth will mourn over him. Indeed this shall be so. Amen.*** (Apocalypse 1:7)

Jesus’ return will not be limited to a few select individuals. Even those who are dead from of old will witness His Coming!

Maran atha!

Angel

First, let me say that I believe Christ second coming, the Parousia, will be His glorious bodily return and the end of time. And that it will be the final fulfillment of (Rev 1:7)

With that said, I’m a Catholic who veiws (Rev 1:7) being fulfilled first, in the judgement of the Temple Jews in 70 A.D. I’m drawing heavily from different parts of the book “Rapture”, by David B. Currie, to explain this idea.

We must be careful not to assume that the coming of the Son of man “on the clouds” only refers to the Parousia, and that the Son must be coming to earth (Although I believe it will be the case at the Parousia). The “clouds of Heaven” symbolize the majesty and glory of God when He judges His enemies in the the Old Testament and 70 A.D.

In (Isaiah 19:1) we read, “the LORD is riding on a swift cloud on his way to Egypt; The idols of Egypt tremble before him, the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.” This was fulfilled in (Isaiah 20:1-6). Yet no clouds appeared, nor did God make Himself visible in any physical manifestation. God’s “coming on a cloud” was actually fulfilled in the arrival of the Assyrian army! They were the tool of God’s judgement. A similar use of clouds to signify the glory of God in His judgment against Egypt is in (Ezekiel 30:3) “The day of the Lord is near; it will be a day of clouds”

So, in the first fulfillment of (Rev 1:7) Jesus used the Roman army as His tool to judge the Sanhedrin of the Temple.

Jesus predicted that there would be a judgement of the Sanhedrin for what they were doing to their Messiah. [Speaking to Caiaphas the high priest] *"Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so. But I tell you: **From now on **you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’” * (Mat 26:64)

Jesus lifted the “Son of man” language directly out of (Dan 7:13-14) *As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the **Ancient One **and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. *

Notice that Daniel is clear that the Son of man is coming toward the Ancient One (God in heaven), not earth. The first fulfillment of cloud imagery happened when our Lord ascended to Heaven. Later, the “Son of man” was publicly recognized as the victor, at the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

(Luke 19:41-44) *"When [Jesus] . . . saw the city, He wept over it, saying . . . ‘The days shall come upon you, when your enemies will cast up a bank about you and surround you, and hem you in on every side . . . and they will not leave one stone upon another in you; because you did not know the time of your visitation.’ " *

When we start to understand the significance of 70 A.D., the words of Jesus at the Transfiguration take on new meaning.

Jesus said *"For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." * (Mat 16:27-28)

“Coming on the clouds” then, has been fulfilled. Not in the literal bodily sense, or in the sense of Christ’s Parousia, but in His coming in judgement.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[jcrichton]

…With that said, I’m a Catholic who veiws (Rev 1:7) being fulfilled first, in the judgement of the Temple Jews in 70 A.D. I’m drawing heavily from different parts of the book “Rapture”, by David B. Currie, to explain this idea.

In (Isaiah 19:1) we read, “the LORD is riding on a swift cloud on his way to Egypt; The idols of Egypt tremble before him, the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them.” This was fulfilled in (Isaiah 20:1-6). …in His judgment against Egypt is in (Ezekiel 30:3) “The day of the Lord is near; it will be a day of clouds”

So, in the first fulfillment of (Rev 1:7) Jesus used the Roman army as His tool to judge the Sanhedrin of the Temple.

Jesus predicted that there would be a judgement of the Sanhedrin for what they were doing to their Messiah. [Speaking to Caiaphas the high priest] *"Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so. But I tell you: **From now on ***you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’” (Mat 26:64)

Jesus lifted the “Son of man” language directly out of (Dan 7:13-14) … He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed.

Notice that Daniel is clear that the Son of man is coming toward the Ancient One (God in heaven), not earth. The first fulfillment of cloud imagery happened when our Lord ascended to Heaven. Later, the “Son of man” was publicly recognized as the victor, at the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

(Luke 19:41-44) *"When [Jesus] . . . saw the city, He wept over it, saying . . . ‘The days shall come upon you, when your enemies will cast up a bank about you and surround you, and hem you in on every side . . . and they will not leave one stone upon another in you; because you did not know the time of your visitation.’ " *

When we start to understand the significance of 70 A.D., the words of Jesus at the Transfiguration take on new meaning.

Jesus said *"For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." * (Mat 16:27-28)

“Coming on the clouds” then, has been fulfilled. Not in the literal bodily sense, or in the sense of Christ’s Parousia, but in His coming in judgement.

Peace,

Ryan
***Hi, Ryan!

I respect your personal beliefs, everyone has a right to interpret the Holy Scriptures as they will; however, as you warned, not because it shines can we call it gold…

Are you aware that some believe that there are UFO visitations recorded in the Holy Scriptures? …well… if we allow our imaginations to flourish in a fertile envoronment its wonderful what we can see in Scriptures–not that that is what Yahweh is revealing!

I apreciate the use of the various passages of Scriptures to help determine what is being revealed… I understand your connections and explanations, but I do not share your views:

a) The destruction of the Temple is not a sign of Christ’s Victory but of the hardheartedness of Israel who refused to accept their Creator (St. John 1:11) and it is the fulfillment of Jesus revelation to the Samaritan woman as Yahweh would not be worshiped in the Temple nor on the mountain (St. John 4:21).

b) The Jewish people, except for the Remnant, are till today still ignorant of the arrival of the Messiah; since they rejected Jesus and their Temple was destroyed they simply interiorized their system of belief, allowing, as to say, for a spiritual Temple made on their own: God razed the physical Temple and they raised an imaginary one–one which allows them to stay deep in their religious observances as they willfully reject Yahweh’s Command to listen to His Only Begotten Son!

c) The destruction of the Temple is the conclusion of the old covenant and the Church, purchased by Christ Blood, is the iniciation of the new Covenant:

23 But the hour is coming-indeed is already here-when true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth: that is the kind of worshipper the Father seeks.
24 God is spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit and truth.*** (St. John 4:23-24)

d) To suggest judgment and the establishment of the eternal kingdom through the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD would necesitate a second judgment on those already judged and Jesus Coming to deal with the sinners not the believers (Hebrews 9:27-28), and the Jews’ acceptance of Jesus as the Messianic King, a fact that is negated by Scripture (St. John 19:19-21) and most present days Jews.

Maran atha!

Angel