The Secularist Dilemma: No God, No Truth

[St_Francis]

Well, that’s my point. No one “thought” up this “idea”…they just did this naturally.
They would rather get up and do the job than stay under the covers.
I’m sure there were some, though, who did stay under the covers.

What is the PWCUWTI?

People Who Came Up With This Idea

You are missing the point that people a lot of the time are not consciously thinking, “oh, this will make me feel good” before every action they take.
They take their action…but underneath and behind their action is a complex network of thoughts, feelings, past experiences, belief…

I don’t know why you have to feel it “twists” the act.
In his mind and heart, he is doing it to help others and out of his love of others.
It just so happens that loving others makes him feel good.

Isn’t this what Catholics like to call in their religion, having one’s conscious be “well formed”?
This soldier’s conscious is “formed” in a way that helping others feels and is good.

In fact…if he was a theist and he was doing it thinking and believing that God wanted him to do it and that he’d go to heaven after–that could be considered the more selfish choice than the Atheist doing it and not expecting any “reward” or pat on the back.

See above.

Well, yes…I agree with that. I mean, some people are already going in that direction just naturally. But this is how the brain reflex works to…by developing in that direction.

Before about the 1960s, this was not an idea that was in common thought. I’m not saying no one ever thought it, and people certainly had a notion of positive and negative consequences, but it just wasn’t the way people thought.

This idea reduces to the lowest denominator the motive for doing anything. The man who cared for his mother did so to avoid feeling bad (ie, “guilty”) for not taking care of her: it felt better to avoid the guilt than to care for her. The man who totally ignored his mother did so because that felt better than caring for her did.

Since this idea came into common thinking, our society has deteriorated terribly. Virtue is no longer valued, because people who are virtuous are only like that because it feels better to them than does non-virtue.

I wouldn’t say she wanted to pick dying people up off the sidewalk because she “made a decision to be holy”.

No, she made a decision to be holy above all else, and acted on that, so when God asked her to start picking dying people up off the street, she was ready to do so. Without that background, all the previous decisions to become holy, she would have been more like the rest of Calcutta, ignoring those dying on the streets.

There are hundreds of thousand of people in the world who “make the decision to be holy” who do not pick dying people up off the ground.

I think most truly holy people would do this if they came across a dying person, but as to what God calls them to do, yes, it differs from person to person. Some are called to teach about God to uncivilized people who will probably harm them and ultimately do, like St Isaac Jogues; others are called to spend their lives praying for those who do these heroic acts.

I’d say she wanted to be a good person and help others–as many do, including Atheists and Agnostics.
One doesn’t have to believe in a God to do or feel this.
People were helping others and loving others and doing unselfish acts long before Gods or religions came along.

I chose Mother Teresa because she did do something that many people had not. People had been dying on the streets of Calcutta for generations; many, many people had stepped over them and done nothing.

The reality is that most people who do not come from the Judeo-Christian tradition as does the West actually *don’t *tend to help people outside their circle all that much, and they aren’t always very nice to the people inside their circle–witness the huge number of people among the ruling class who killed those with more power than they, and these were their relatives!

St Matthew 5:46–47 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? **Are not even the tax collectors doing that? **And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? **Do not even pagans do that? **

 

[St_Francis]

Oh, I forgot to reply to this part

And, as you probably know…Mother Teresa doubted God’s presence for many decades, as per her private letters. But she continued to attempt to help others in her own way, even thru her “agnostic” era, despite her doubts.

Mother Teresa was most assuredly *not agnostic. What happened was that she did not feel the presence *of God as she had in the past; this had nothing to do with His existence.

This is not an uncommon experience among those who are very holy, but Mother Teresa’s aridity lasted for much longer than usual. However, she always believed in God.

She was not doing it because she “made a decision” to be “holy”. She was doing it because she felt good about helping people–and she had that desire since childhood.

You can’t even see how what you are saying is totally denigrating Mother Teresa’s actions! This is so sad. And I wish that I could express it clearly for you.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

DaddyGirl:

I don’t know why you have to feel it “twists” the act.
In his mind and heart, he is doing it to help others and out of his love of others.
It just so happens that loving others makes him feel good.

Isn’t this what Catholics like to call in their religion, having one’s conscious be “well formed”?
This soldier’s conscious is “formed” in a way that helping others feels and is good.

You are almost correct.

A well formed conscience is one that is “tuned” in. IOW, self interest does not guide the conscience, rather the conscience guides self interest. What does this mean?

It means that we listen to and obey our conscience. Our conscience is a peremptory and commanding light. We realize that obeying our conscience is nothing less than obeying God. (at least to Catholics.) John Henry Newman used to argue the conscience as a proof for the existence of God. It is personal, and commands us in a way that does not always seem to be in our best interest. IOW, we are commanded to put others before ourselves. The “good feeling” we get from obeying our conscience is a very small reward when compared to the acts of heroism and self-sacrifice that are sometimes required.

For example, the Firemen first responders at the scene of the Twin Towers on 9/11 were hardly in a state of “feeling good” because of what they were doing. They were stressed and afraid, but above all they were courageous and heroic. For the ones that survived, there was definitely a “good feeling” in helping others live. But their motivation was one of doing their sworn duty. They followed their conscience when it seemed to be more in other people’s best interest than theirs.

So consider the conscience as a universal among all men on earth. We don’t have to understand a culture or motivation to recognize courage or cowardice. These are things that modern science foolishly tries to categorize as chemical oozings in the brain. But don’t be fooled. It is tied to our spirituality. That is something science has no knowledge of, nor is it comfortable acknowledging such a spirituality can exist.

 

[adrift]

…
One doesn’t have to believe in -]a G/-] god to do or feel this.
**People were helping others **and loving others and doing unselfish acts **long before **-]G/-] gods or religions came along.
.

.

I doubt that you could provide any proof for this over reaching statement. God is the beginning people didn’t exist before God called them into existence of course that is a statement of belief. But your statement is made as one of fact so provide evidence.

 

[St_Francis]

You are almost correct.

A well formed conscience is one that is “tuned” in. IOW, self interest does not guide the conscience, rather the conscience guides self interest. What does this mean?

It means that we listen to and obey our conscience. Our conscience is a peremptory and commanding light. We realize that obeying our conscience is nothing less than obeying God. (at least to Catholics.) John Henry Newman used to argue the conscience as a proof for the existence of God. It is personal, and commands us in a way that does not always seem to be in our best interest. IOW, we are commanded to put others before ourselves. The “good feeling” we get from obeying our conscience is a very small reward when compared to the acts of heroism and self-sacrifice that are sometimes required.

For example, the Firemen first responders at the scene of the Twin Towers on 9/11 were hardly in a state of “feeling good” because of what they were doing. They were stressed and afraid, but above all they were courageous and heroic. For the ones that survived, there was definitely a “good feeling” in helping others live. But their motivation was one of doing their sworn duty. They followed their conscience when it seemed to be more in other people’s best interest than theirs.

Fr Rutler on EWTN described his experience on 9/11. He left the building near “Ground Zero” he was in and started walking. As he walked, fire fighters and police officers on their way towards the scene stopped him and asked for Confession.

They knew…

That still brings tears to my eyes to think of it.

So consider the conscience as a universal among all men on earth. We don’t have to understand a culture or motivation to recognize courage or cowardice. These are things that modern science foolishly tries to categorize as chemical oozings in the brain. But don’t be fooled. It is tied to our spirituality. That is something science has no knowledge of, nor is it comfortable acknowledging such a spirituality can exist.