The Septuagint and the canon. A question for the East and the West

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Personally, I’m with St. Jerome on this one. I think we should go with the Hebrew canon (aka the Tanakh) and regard what is outside it as apocryphal.

You guys, on the other hand- both RC and EO- have a view of the Septuagint that differs from mine in a number of significant ways. This ultimately leads to different OT canons.

So that’s why my Bible doesn’t have all the books that yours does. I get that. But I still have a question about why the East and West have different canons.

For the Eastern Orthodox, it’s a bit more straightforward (no offense, Catholics). The Septuagint has a certain number of books, and they all wind up in the EO canon. I disagree with using the Septuagint as your “canon guide,” but at least it’s consistent. That’s the guide you chose, and you follow it.

Why doesn’t it work out that way for the Catholic canon? You use the Septuagint. If that’s your guide, why not use the whole thing?
 
Personally, I’m with St. Jerome on this one. I think we should go with the Hebrew canon (aka the Tanakh) and regard what is outside it as apocryphal.
The same Jerome who said “I speak with the successor of the fisherman and disciple of the cross. I, who follow none but Christ as first, am joined in communion with your holiness, that is with the see of Peter. On this rock I know the Church was built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Whoever is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the deluge comes…Whoever does not gather with you scatters for whoever does not belong to Christ is of Antichrist.”

When the decision was made on the Canon (Council of Rome 382 AD) Jerome accept the decision of the Church.

What sin have I committed if I follow the judgment of the churches? . . . I was not relating my own personal views [when I wrote the objections of the Jews to the longer form of Daniel in my introduction], but rather the remarks that [the Jews] are wont to make against us [Christians who accept the longer form of Daniel], (Against Rufinius, 11:33).

In the above quote we see Jerome defending his uses of the Deuterocanonical parts of Daniel and defending the Church

“…does not the scripture say…” (epistle 108 404 AD – Jerome quoting Ecclesiasticus aka Sirach)

“…remind me of the sacred volume, for in it Ezekiel decks Jerusalem with bracelets, Baruch receives letters from Jeremiah and the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove at the baptism of Christ…” (Jerome epistle 31:2 384 AD)

“Do you expect me to explain the purposes and plans of God? The book of Wisdom gives an answer to your foolish questions… and in the same place ‘In wisdom and simplicity of heart seek God.’ You will perhaps deny the authority of this book…” (Jerome against the Pelagians)
 
I think we should go with the Hebrew canon (aka the Tanakh)
Why the Hebrew Canon, what makes it so special? At the time of Christ there was no OT Canon. The Sadducces for example used only the first 5 books and some Jews even today have a larger canon than the so called Hebrew Canon.
For the Eastern Orthodox, it’s a bit more straightforward (no offense, Catholics). The Septuagint has a certain number of books, and they all wind up in the EO canon.
Yet we don’t know the exact canon of the Septuagint. There are many differing manuscripts.
Why doesn’t it work out that way for the Catholic canon? You use the Septuagint. If that’s your guide, why not use the whole thing?
The Catholic canon relies neither on the so called Hebrew Canon or Septuagint Canon. At the Council of Rome in 382 AD, guided by sacred Tradtion and the Holy Spirit, Pope Damascus decreed a 73 book Canon. Books not in accord with Sacred Tradtion or that were not apostolic where not included. Until the reformation there was never to my knowledge a 66 book Canon.
 
Personally, I’m with St. Jerome on this one. I think we should go with the Hebrew canon (aka the Tanakh) and regard what is outside it as apocryphal.

You guys, on the other hand- both RC and EO- have a view of the Septuagint that differs from mine in a number of significant ways. This ultimately leads to different OT canons.

So that’s why my Bible doesn’t have all the books that yours does. I get that. But I still have a question about why the East and West have different canons.

For the Eastern Orthodox, it’s a bit more straightforward (no offense, Catholics). The Septuagint has a certain number of books, and they all wind up in the EO canon. I disagree with using the Septuagint as your “canon guide,” but at least it’s consistent. That’s the guide you chose, and you follow it.

Why doesn’t it work out that way for the Catholic canon? You use the Septuagint. If that’s your guide, why not use the whole thing?
I too wonder why the entire Septuigent is not used in the western canon, I only know that whent he canon was deterrmined by multiple councils between about 380 and 410 AD the 73 book canon was adopted - and accepted by Jerome.

As to support for using the wider canon I point to the Bible itself in 2Tim 3:16:
**All scripture **is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Now the thing to ask oneself is this. When St Paul wrote this letter to Timothy was Timothy working with Hebre Speaking Jews in Palistine? The answer is No. Timothy was working with Greek Speaking Jews and Gentiles outside of Palistine (in Ephasis?).
So then, what was the most widely known and common set of Scriptures in use in the wider “Greek Speaking” world of the time? It was the Septuigent.
Thus it is that when St Paul tells Timothy, working with Greek speaking Gentiles, that All Scripture is profitable, it is unlikely that he is speaking of the “hebrew canon” that, as far as I know, was not definitively established for another 30 years or so.

Another aspect to concider here is how the Catholic Church views biblical and extrabiblical scripture as opposed to how “bible only” chrsitians view it.
The Catholic Church sees in “extrabiblical” scripture much that is useful but some things that are problematic. Some pious beliefs are based on things derived from extrabiblical sources. Much knowledge of Biblical times and places can be discovered in such extrabiblical texts. The Church, by her authority and by her historical continuity considers what is contained in the various texts and makes comment on it.
“Bible only” Christians on the other hand often simply reject ANY extrabiblical source as having any significance. I don’t say all do, but I’ve seen enough of such rejection here on the boards to know that some view it as - “If it ain’t in the Bible, it ain’t nothin!”😛

I know that this is not a real answer to your question and I hope to read some better ones from the more knowledgable folks here, but I just felt the need to add my 2 cents.

peace
James
 
“With regard to whatever is in the Septuagint that is not in the Hebrew manuscripts, we can say that the one Spirit wished to speak to them through the writers of the former rather than through the latter in order to show that both the one and the other were inspired.”

St. Augustine

Nice quotations Canto!
 
Why doesn’t it work out that way for the Catholic canon? You use the Septuagint. If that’s your guide, why not use the whole thing?
Greek Catholics do use the whole thing. The decree of Trent leaves open the use of the (full) LXX canon as well as the Biblical canons of Oriental Catholic churches (like the Ethiopians). Ultimately it is a matter of passing down what was handed onto us. The Latins, through their local councils (like the council of Rome) have a particular canon that has been the standard for the Latin tradition (likewise the Greeks have theirs etc). The Latins aren’t being inconsistent. They are just using what has been given to them.

I have to ask, on what basis is the Hebrew canon more acceptable then the Latin or LXX canons? The Hebrew canon wasn’t even finalized till after Christ’s death and the manuscripts used for it are not all that old (10th century AD I beleive). What proof is there that doctrinal orthodoxy can come from that Canon? The Church, the Fathers, Tradition, and the Apostles all point to the LXX as the authoritative form of the OT. Why deviate from it for anything other then scholarly purposes?
 
Personally, I’m with St. Jerome on this one. I think we should go with the Hebrew canon (aka the Tanakh) and regard what is outside it as apocryphal.
Actually St. Jerome favoured translating from the Hebrew Text, not using the Hebrew Canon. There is a major difference between these two concepts. The Hebrew Text is only available for those books in the Hebrew Canon (itslef formalized roughly 100 years after Christ), as such those books which they did not accept were still translated, by St. Jerome, from the LXX.
You guys, on the other hand- both RC and EO- have a view of the Septuagint that differs from mine in a number of significant ways. This ultimately leads to different OT canons.
We were here first, if you have issues with differences in Canons you should question your own Church first.
So that’s why my Bible doesn’t have all the books that yours does. I get that. But I still have a question about why the East and West have different canons.
Because we look on the bible differently than you do. It isn’t the centre of our religion - Christ himself is. Nor do we believe it contains everything. It makes the difference unimportant.
For the Eastern Orthodox, it’s a bit more straightforward (no offense, Catholics). The Septuagint has a certain number of books, and they all wind up in the EO canon. I disagree with using the Septuagint as your “canon guide,” but at least it’s consistent. That’s the guide you chose, and you follow it.
Actually your view of our view on the Bible is flawed. We don’t view all books as necessarily equal. Additionally the modern concept of what the Septuagent is, is based on our Canon, not the other way around. Originally the Septuagent was just a translation, into Greek, of a bunch of Hebrew texts.
Why doesn’t it work out that way for the Catholic canon? You use the Septuagint. If that’s your guide, why not use the whole thing?
That question is the same as if I asked you “You use the Bible. If that’s your guide, why not use the whole thing?”
 
Greek Catholics do use the whole thing.
I did not know that. Thank you for telling me about that.
The decree of Trent leaves open the use of the (full) LXX canon as well as the Biblical canons of Oriental Catholic churches (like the Ethiopians). Ultimately it is a matter of passing down what was handed onto us. The Latins, through their local councils (like the council of Rome) have a particular canon that has been the standard for the Latin tradition (likewise the Greeks have theirs etc). The Latins aren’t being inconsistent. They are just using what has been given to them.
Do you know what part of Trent has the most to do with this? I’ll have to take a look.
I have to ask, on what basis is the Hebrew canon more acceptable then the Latin or LXX canons? The Hebrew canon wasn’t even finalized till after Christ’s death and the manuscripts used for it are not all that old (10th century AD I beleive). What proof is there that doctrinal orthodoxy can come from that Canon? The Church, the Fathers, Tradition, and the Apostles all point to the LXX as the authoritative form of the OT. Why deviate from it for anything other then scholarly purposes?
I will make a mental note of your handle and get something together for you in the next couple of days. I’ll probably pm you. For the moment, though, I’m going to keep looking through the responses here.

Thanks for your help!
 
The Catholic canon relies neither on the so called Hebrew Canon or Septuagint Canon. At the Council of Rome in 382 AD, guided by sacred Tradtion and the Holy Spirit, Pope Damascus decreed a 73 book Canon. Books not in accord with Sacred Tradtion or that were not apostolic where not included.
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia…

“The most striking difference between the Catholic and Protestant Bibles is the presence in the former of a number of writings which are wanting in the latter and also in the Hebrew Bible, which became the Old Testament of Protestantism. These number seven books: Tobias (Tobit), Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, I and II Machabees, and three documents added to protocanonical books, viz., the supplement to Esther, from x, 4, to the end, the Canticle of the Three Youths (Song of the Three Children) in Daniel, iii, and the stories of Susanna and the Elders and Bel and the Dragon, forming the closing chapters of the Catholic version of that book. Of these works, Tobias and Judith were written originally in Aramaic, perhaps in Hebrew; Baruch and I Machabees in Hebrew, while Wisdom and II Machabees were certainly composed in Greek. The probabilities favour Hebrew as the original language of the addition to Esther, and Greek for the enlargements of Daniel.”

Ok, that’s just preliminary information. Here’s the point.

“The ancient Greek Old Testament known as the Septuagint was the vehicle which conveyed these additional Scriptures into the Catholic Church.”

Source: newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm

You can talk about the guide that shows you the way, or you can talk about the vehicle that takes you there- either way, the Septuagint is the means by which you get to where you’re going.
 
Personally, I’m with St. Jerome on this one. I think we should go with the Hebrew canon (aka the Tanakh) and regard what is outside it as apocryphal.

No offense,but that is the difference between Jerome and non-Catholics. He followed and obeyed the decision of the entire church and not his own private judgement. It is not about an individual’s opinion,but it is about the entire church and its implications on its faithful.

You guys, on the other hand- both RC and EO- have a view of the Septuagint that differs from mine in a number of significant ways. This ultimately leads to different OT canons.

Actually the whole issue did not really explode until the Reformation. RC & EO may have had slight differences,but they did not make it an on-going controversy as the Protestants reformers did. BTW: Did you know the first KJV also known as the Authorized Version included the extra 7 books? It was not until the 18 and 19th centuries where Protestants decided to remove them all completely. However, I am noticing more Protestant Bible versions starting to include the 7 extra books…😉

So that’s why my Bible doesn’t have all the books that yours does. I get that. But I still have a question about why the East and West have different canons.

And do you know why it is shorter? One reason was because Martin Luther did not care for the books which conflicted with his own doctrines.Likewise, others were also removed because many reformers felt they supported RCC doctrines.Case in point, Book of Maccabees, which supports prayer for the dead.

For the Eastern Orthodox, it’s a bit more straightforward (no offense, Catholics). The Septuagint has a certain number of books, and they all wind up in the EO canon. I disagree with using the Septuagint as your “canon guide,” but at least it’s consistent. That’s the guide you chose, and you follow it.

The above can be argumentative against the Jewish canon of 39 OT books. The question being begged is: Why do Protestants accept a canon,which was not binding to Christians?

Why doesn’t it work out that way for the Catholic canon? You use the Septuagint. If that’s your guide, why not use the whole thing?

Also applicable to Protestants who chose a shorter canon. Why not follow the LXX which was used by the early Christians? 😉

 
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia…

“The most striking difference between the Catholic and Protestant Bibles is the presence in the former of a number of writings which are wanting in the latter and also in the Hebrew Bible, which became the Old Testament of Protestantism. These number seven books: Tobias (Tobit), Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, I and II Machabees, and three documents added to protocanonical books, viz., the supplement to Esther, from x, 4, to the end, the Canticle of the Three Youths (Song of the Three Children) in Daniel, iii, and the stories of Susanna and the Elders and Bel and the Dragon, forming the closing chapters of the Catholic version of that book. Of these works, Tobias and Judith were written originally in Aramaic, perhaps in Hebrew; Baruch and I Machabees in Hebrew, while Wisdom and II Machabees were certainly composed in Greek. The probabilities favour Hebrew as the original language of the addition to Esther, and Greek for the enlargements of Daniel.”

Ok, that’s just preliminary information. Here’s the point.

“The ancient Greek Old Testament known as the Septuagint was the vehicle which conveyed these additional Scriptures into the Catholic Church.”

Source: newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm

You can talk about the guide that shows you the way, or you can talk about the vehicle that takes you there- either way, the Septuagint is the means by which you get to where you’re going.
So are you making the claim,the Council of Trent added the extra 7 books? :juggle:
 
And do you know why it is shorter? One reason was because Martin Luther did not care for the books which conflicted with his own doctrines.
Plus several new testament books, one of which was Revelation.

He said that a book called Revelation ought to reveal something.😃
 
Actually St. Jerome favoured translating from the Hebrew Text, not using the Hebrew Canon. There is a major difference between these two concepts.
He did both. This is from a Catholic source, so of course it’s biased and includes pejorative commentary along the way. But it does tell you what Jerome did.

“St. Jerome cast his weighty suffrage on the side unfavourable to the disputed books. In appreciating his attitude we must remember that Jerome lived long in Palestine, in an environment where everything outside the Jewish Canon was suspect, and that, moreover, he had an excessive veneration for the Hebrew text…”

Disingenuous Commentary, Exhibit A. Perhaps his veneration of the Hebrew text was just right, and perhaps his residence in and around the place from whence the Scripture in question actually came from was helpful rather than harmful to his outlook on the topic. Oh, and his suffrage was not as weighty as it probably should have been- based on his expertise and the quality of his work (as compared to his contemporaries, anyway), he should have had more influence than he did. He had less influence for reasons that aren’t all that valid, and these things were entirely beyond his control. Moving on, though.

“…the Hebraica veritas as he called it. In his famous “Prologus Galeatus”, or Preface to his translation of Samuel and Kings, he declares that everything not Hebrew should be classed with the apocrypha, and explicitly says that Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Tobias, and Judith are not on the Canon.”

Here’s a bit of my own biased commentary: Boom, baby! What was it you said earlier? I think it was something like this:

“Actually St. Jerome favoured translating from the Hebrew Text, not using the Hebrew Canon.”

And here’s what actually happened.

“In his famous “Prologus Galeatus”, or Preface to his translation of Samuel and Kings, he declares that everything not Hebrew should be classed with the apocrypha, and explicitly says that Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Tobias, and Judith are not on the Canon.”

Again: Boom! Oh, and here’s a more direct source pertaining to the Pro. Gal. ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/PII6-17.TXT Look a little less than halfway down, or just search for the text “not in the canon.” Now back to the source.

“These books, he adds, are read in the churches for the edification of the people, and not for the confirmation of revealed doctrine. An analysis of Jerome’s expressions on the deuterocanonicals, in various letters and prefaces, yields the following results: first, he strongly doubted their inspiration; secondly, the fact that he occasionally quotes them, and translated some of them as a concession to ecclesiastical tradition, is an involuntary testimony on his part to the high standing these writings enjoyed in the Church at large, and to the strength of the practical tradition which prescribed their readings in public worship. Obviously, the inferior rank to which the deuteros were relegated by authorities like Origen, Athanasius, and Jerome, was due to too rigid a conception of canonicity…”

Disingenuous Commentary, Exhibit B. Maybe their conception of canonicity had just the right amount of rigidity. That’s one possibility. It was more rigidity than Rome wound up settling on centuries later…but nothing more than that.

And…we’re back.

“…one demanding that a book, to be entitled to this supreme dignity, must be received by all, must have the sanction of Jewish antiquity, and must moreover be adapted not only to edification, but also to the “confirmation of the doctrine of the Church”, to borrow Jerome’s phrase.”

That’s about all. Oh yeah, here’s the source. newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm Look for the section entitled “The canon of the Old Testament during the fourth, and first half of the fifth, century.”

All of this is rather off topic, of course, and I’m still not entirely sure why the Catholic Church has fewer books in their OT canon than the Orthodox Church does. But I do hope this clears up a few things about Jerome.

I also hope some of you will take a look at this portion of the Catholic Encyclopedia and become a little more familiar with the development of the canon throughout history in different parts of the world. It’s not nearly as simplistic as everyone so far has made it out to be.

Again, though, this is somewhat related but still kind of off topic. This thread isn’t supposed to be all about me. Or Jerome. Or Protestants. It’s supposed to be about why the Catholic canon and the Orthodox canon both use the Septuagint as their “vehicle” for getting books into their canons that aren’t in the Hebrew canon…yet they come up with a different number of books, and the Catholic canon doesn’t have as many. I’m glad about the opportunity to take a look at Trent and see what the provisions are for groups like the Greek Catholic Church in expanding their canon a bit, but I’m still looking for reasons as to why the 72-book canon excludes some parts of the anagignoskomena, as it was called at the time.

Any Orthodox (or anyone else) out there who can help me out with detailed information on the development of your canon? That’d be great. Thanks!
 
So are you making the claim,the Council of Trent added the extra 7 books? :juggle:
As with any other council, the Council of Trent provided the “final word” on a divisive issue that had been in progress for a good deal of time.

If you really want to go all the way back to where the 7 books were added in…

Let’s step back for a second. In recognition of the main point of this thread, you and I both know the anagignoskomena did not consist of just 7 books. It kind of depends how you divide them up, but we’re looking at 10 books (though Baruch is sometimes divided up into Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy), an addition to Esther, several additions to Daniel, and Psalm 151.

As for when these 10 (or 11, depending on how you count them) books and other fragments were “added in,” nameless faceless scholars and scribes began grouping them with the Hebrew texts during a period of time between the third century BCE and the first century CE.

Now, what I’m really wondering about is this: When did these 10 (or 11) books plus various fragments become just 7 books, how did it happen, and what are your reasons for supposing that this was the right thing to do?

Edit- just noticed a typo in a post I can no longer edit. I’m looking at a 73-book canon for Catholics, not 72.
 
Did you know the first KJV also known as the Authorized Version included the extra 7 books?

And do you know why it is shorter?

The question being begged is: Why do Protestants accept a canon,which was not binding to Christians?

Why not follow the LXX which was used by the early Christians? 😉
You ask a lot of questions. Could you please answer just one?

(See post 14, right there at the end of it).
 
The thing I like most about the “extra” books in the Catholic bible is that it still only costs as much as Protestant bible.

Have you noticed how what used to be a half gallon of Breyer’s ice cream is now only 1-1/2 quarts yet the price is the same?

Ticks me off.
 
What matters is there can be only one, and only one, truth of Jesus Christ. And this one truth is the Catholic Church started by Christ along with being led by the Holy Spirit. This same truth, entrusted by Christ to the Catholic Church & guided by the Holy Spirit, cannot be led astray when it come to the Word of God.

St. Jerome is one man & does not have the authority of the Catholic Church. Although, I admire St. Jerome for his obedience to the Church. My personal bible is also the Douay-Rheims, so I have great respect for St. Jerome. But no one has the athority to interpret the Bible or make any decisions on the canon of the Bible outside of the Catholic Church. All of these canons from different Bibles stem from pride & disobedience, plain & simple, and this includes the difference in canons between the Orthodox & Catholic Churches.

Lastly, all 73 books were considered part of the canon of the Catholic Bible as early as 405 AD. " Exuperius is best known in connection with the Canon of the Sacred Scriptures. He had written to Innocent I for instructions concerning the canon and several points of ecclesiastical discipline. In reply, the pope honoured him with the letter Consulenti tibi, dated February, 405, which contained a list of the canonical scriptures as we have them today, including the deuterocanonical books of the Catholic Canon. The assertion of non-Catholic writers that the Canon of Innocent I excluded the Apocrypha is not true, if they mean to extend the term Apocrypha to the deuterocanonical books. " newadvent.org/cathen/05731a.htm
 
As with any other council, the Council of Trent provided the “final word” on a divisive issue that had been in progress for a good deal of time.
Was it really divisive…?

73 – Rome (382)
73 – Carthage III (397)
73 – Carthage IV (419/8)
73 - Nicaea II (787)
73 - Florence (1441),
73 - Trent (1545-1563)
73 - Vatican I (1869-1870)
73 - Vatican II (1962-1965)
If you really want to go all the way back to where the 7 books were added in…

Let’s step back for a second. In recognition of the main point of this thread, you and I both know the anagignoskomena did not consist of just 7 books. It kind of depends how you divide them up, but we’re looking at 10 books (though Baruch is sometimes divided up into Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy), an addition to Esther, several additions to Daniel, and Psalm 151.

As for when these 10 (or 11, depending on how you count them) books and other fragments were “added in,” nameless faceless scholars and scribes began grouping them with the Hebrew texts during a period of time between the third century BCE and the first century CE.
This implies that the Hebrew texts were seperate from the Deuterocanonical texts and that there was a standard Hebrew Canon.
Now, what I’m really wondering about is this: When did these 10 (or 11) books plus various fragments become just 7 books, how did it happen, and what are your reasons for supposing that this was the right thing to do?

Edit- just noticed a typo in a post I can no longer edit. I’m looking at a 73-book canon for Catholics, not 72.
There are various ways of grouping. The Protestant OT follows the same order as the Catholic OT sans the Deuterocanonical books. The more common Jewish Canon has 24 books as opposed to 46 (C) or 39 (P).
 
What matters is…
What matters to me, as far as this thread goes, is that I have a question to which I would like an answer. And in order to find that answer, I might actually need more help from the Orthodox side of the aisle than the Catholic side.
All of these canons from different Bibles stem from pride & disobedience, plain & simple, and this includes the difference in canons between the Orthodox & Catholic Churches.
When, where, who, how, and why? In this specific instance, of course.

I obviously won’t walk away from this saying “Ah, these were people who were prideful and acted in disobedience.” I’m going to look right past those kinds of things in order to see what happened. So what was it that happened? Whence cometh the differences between the Catholic and Orthodox canons? Were there two separate lines of development that coincided time-wise but had little direct contact with each other? Did these things happen at different times as well as different places? Were there two different sets of authority figures that made different decisions? Why- and how- is it that one group of people made cuts to the anagignoskomena while the other did not?
Lastly, all 73 books were considered part of the canon of the Catholic Bible as early as 405 AD. " Exuperius is best known in connection with the Canon of the Sacred Scriptures. He had written to Innocent I for instructions concerning the canon and several points of ecclesiastical discipline. In reply, the pope honoured him with the letter Consulenti tibi, dated February, 405, which contained a list of the canonical scriptures as we have them today, including the deuterocanonical books of the Catholic Canon. The assertion of non-Catholic writers that the Canon of Innocent I excluded the Apocrypha is not true, if they mean to extend the term Apocrypha to the deuterocanonical books. " newadvent.org/cathen/05731a.htm
Ok, this is good start to one half of the issue. From what you gave me here, it looks like this is the first time we get to see alterations to the anagignoskomena, such that it was culled down to just 7 books.

Now why did they do that?
 
Why- and how- is it that one group of people made cuts to the anagignoskomena while the other did not?
This implies that we know exactly how many books and in what form.
Remeber at the time of Christ there was no ‘Hebrew Canon.’
Ok, this is good start to one half of the issue. From what you gave me here, it looks like this is the first time we get to see alterations to the anagignoskomena, such that it was culled down to just 7 books.

Now why did they do that?
With all the writings floating around the Church found 46 OT and 27 NT books to be inspired. 4 Maccabees, the Gospel of Thomas etc, etc were not considered inspired and thus not included in the Canon.
 
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