C
Chellow
Guest
Why and did we after the schism of 1054 the Catholic Church removed 3rd and 4th Maccabees, 2 Esdras, and Psalm 151. During the Council of
Trent?
Trent?
- Status
F
FightingFat
Guest
Interesting question. My first thought was that you mention the east/ west schism of 1054 and the council of Trent 1545-1563 seemingly in the same context. The canon was only definied in Trent for the first time. Up until that point, as far as I am aware, there was merely a general consensus on the canon.
The Catholic Encyclopedia has this to say on the subject:
III Mach. is the story of a persecution of the Jews in Egypt under Ptolemy IV Philopator (222-205 B. C.), and therefore has no right to its title. Though the work contains much that is historical, the story is a fiction. IV Mach. is a Jewish-Stoic philosophical treatise on the supremacy of pious reason, that is religious principles, over the passions. The martyrdorm of Eleazar and of the seven brothers (2 Maccabees 6:18-7) is introduced to illustrate the author’s thesis. Neither book has any claim to canonicity, though the first for a while received favourable consideration in some Churches.
newadvent.org/cathen/09495a.htm
This only ties in with the Septuagint because the Septuagint held the deutero-canonical texts we still adhere to today whereas the canon the Jews declared at Jamnia in AD 90 did not include them.
V
Verbum
Guest
Hi Chellow,
From the online Catholic EncyclopedIa :
Verbum
From the online Catholic EncyclopedIa :
“Identical with the catalogue of Trent”. So the parts you mention have never been formally approved by the Church, although they may have been circulated among Christians of various places, especially in the East.
Verbum
E
ERose
Guest
They where never classified as inspired writings.
C
Chellow
Guest
Thanks for the information everyone I should have done my own research instead of troubling all of you. I was surprised to find that these books are part of the Septuagint but not in our cannon. I though the whole Septuagint was part or our cannon. I guess not.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
I’d be interested in seeing any evidence there was a “council” of Jamnia (as opposed to a rabinical school), or that it did more than debate the canonicity of a couple of books of the Old Testament.
C
COPLAND_3
Guest
This is an interesting discussion! I plan on investigating this later. But I have noticed that Theodoret in his commentary on Daniel quotes 3 Maccabees and 2 Esdras as though they were canonical. I have often wondered about why they were excluded from the canon as far as what was the turning point, since I am a Septuagint man myself. Though I 100% submit to what the Church teaches! But just as St. Augustine, I feel the LXX is inspired.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Council of Jamnia
From
answers.com/topic/council-of-jamnia
After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai relocated to the city of Yavne/Jamnia and founded a school of Jewish law there, becoming a major source for the later Mishna. His school is often understood as a wellspring of Rabbinic Judaism. The Council of Yavne or Council of Jamnia refers to a hypothetical Proto-Rabbinic council under Yohanan’s leadership, that was responsible for defining the canon of the Hebrew Bible.
Speculation regarding a “Council of Jamnia”
Heinrich Graetz introduced the notion in 1871; based on Mishnaic and Talmudic sources, he concluded that there had been a Council of Jamnia which had decided the Jewish canon sometime in the late 1st century. This became the prevailing scholarly consensus for much of the 20th century. However, from the 1960s onwards, based on the work of Jack P. Lewis, S.Z. Leiman, and others, this view came increasingly into question. In particular, later scholars noted that none of the sources actually mentioned books that had been withdrawn from a canon, and questioned the whole premise that the discussions were about canonicity at all, asserting that they were actually dealing with other concerns entirely.
Lewis writes in The Anchor Bible Dictionary Vol. III, pp. 634-7 (New York 1992):
The concept of the Council of Jamnia is an hypothesis to explain the canonization of the Writings (the third division of the Hebrew Bible) resulting in the closing of the Hebrew canon. … These ongoing debates suggest the paucity of evidence on which the hypothesis of the Council of Jamnia rests and raise the question whether it has not served its usefulness and should be relegated to the limbo of unestablished hypotheses. It should not be allowed to be considered a consensus established by mere repetition of assertion.
(continued in next post)
From
answers.com/topic/council-of-jamnia
After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai relocated to the city of Yavne/Jamnia and founded a school of Jewish law there, becoming a major source for the later Mishna. His school is often understood as a wellspring of Rabbinic Judaism. The Council of Yavne or Council of Jamnia refers to a hypothetical Proto-Rabbinic council under Yohanan’s leadership, that was responsible for defining the canon of the Hebrew Bible.
Speculation regarding a “Council of Jamnia”
Heinrich Graetz introduced the notion in 1871; based on Mishnaic and Talmudic sources, he concluded that there had been a Council of Jamnia which had decided the Jewish canon sometime in the late 1st century. This became the prevailing scholarly consensus for much of the 20th century. However, from the 1960s onwards, based on the work of Jack P. Lewis, S.Z. Leiman, and others, this view came increasingly into question. In particular, later scholars noted that none of the sources actually mentioned books that had been withdrawn from a canon, and questioned the whole premise that the discussions were about canonicity at all, asserting that they were actually dealing with other concerns entirely.
Lewis writes in The Anchor Bible Dictionary Vol. III, pp. 634-7 (New York 1992):
The concept of the Council of Jamnia is an hypothesis to explain the canonization of the Writings (the third division of the Hebrew Bible) resulting in the closing of the Hebrew canon. … These ongoing debates suggest the paucity of evidence on which the hypothesis of the Council of Jamnia rests and raise the question whether it has not served its usefulness and should be relegated to the limbo of unestablished hypotheses. It should not be allowed to be considered a consensus established by mere repetition of assertion.
(continued in next post)
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
(Continued from previous post)
The Council of Jamnia
The Jewish Encyclopedia on the period of Jamnia
The Jewish Encyclopedia article on ACADEMIES IN PALESTINE states:
The destruction of Jerusalem put as abrupt an end to the disputes of the schools as it did to the contests between political parties Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Zealots ]. It was then that a disciple of Hillel, the venerable Johanan ben Zakkai, founded a new home for Jewish Law in Jabneh (Jamnia), and thus evoked a new intellectual life from the ruins of a fallen political existence. The college at Jabneh, which at once constituted itself the successor of the Great Sanhedrin of Jerusalem by putting into practise the ordinances of that body as far as was necessary and practicable, attracted all those who had escaped the national catastrophe and who had become prominent by their character and their learning. Moreover, it reared a new generation of similarly gifted men, whose task it became to overcome the evil results of still another dire catastrophe — the unfortunate Bar Kokba war with its melancholy ending. During the interval between these two disasters (56-117), or, more accurately, until the War of Quietus under Trajan, the school at Jabneh was the recognized tribunal that gathered the traditions of the past and confirmed them; that ruled and regulated existing conditions; and that sowed the seeds for future development. Next to its founder, it owed its splendor and its undisputed supremacy especially to the energetic Gamaliel, a great-grandson of Hillel, called Gamaliel II., or Gamaliel of Jabneh, in order to distinguish him from his grandfather, Gamaliel I. To him flocked the pupils of Johanan ben Zakkai and other masters and students of the Law and of Biblical interpretation. Though some of them taught and labored in other places — Eliezer ben Hyrcanus in Lydda; Joshua ben Hananiah in Beḳiin; Ishmael ben Elisha in Kefar Aziz, Akiba in Bene Beraḳ; Hananiah (Ḥanina) ben Teradyon in Siknin — Jabneh remained the center; and in “the vineyard” of Jabneh, as they called their place of meeting, they used to assemble for joint action.
In the fertile ground of the Jabneh Academy the roots of the literature of tradition — Midrash and Mishnah, Talmud and Aggadah — were nourished and strengthened. There, too, the way was paved for a systematic treatment of Halakah and exegesis. In Jabneh were held the decisive debates upon the canonicity of certain Biblical books; there the prayer-liturgy received its permanent form; and there, probably, was edited the Targum on the Pentateuch, which became the foundation for the later Targum called after Onkelos. It was Jabneh that inspired and sanctioned the new Greek version of the Bible — that of Akylas (Aquila). The events that preceded and followed the great civil revolution under Bar Kokba (from the year 117 to about 140) resulted in the decay and death of the school at Jabneh. According to tradition (R. H. 31b), the Sanhedrin was removed from Jabneh to Usha, from Usha back to Jabneh, and a second time from Jabneh to Usha. This final settlement in Usha indicates the ultimate spiritual supremacy of Galilee over Judea, the latter having become depopulated by the war of Hadrian. Usha remained for a long time the seat of the academy; its importance being due to the pupils of Akiba, one of whom, Judah ben Ilai, had his home in Usha. Here was undertaken the great work of the restoration of Palestinian Judaism after its disintegration under Hadrian. The study of the Law flourished anew; and Simon, a son of Gamaliel, was invested with the rank that had been his father’s in Jabneh. With him the rank of patriarch became hereditary in the house of Hillel, and the seat of the academy was made identical with that of the patriarch.
Late first century developments attributed to Jamnia
Today, there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set. Nevertheless, the outcomes attributed to the Council of Jamnia did occur whether gradually or in a definitive, authoritative council. Several concerns of the remaining Jewish communities in Israel would have been the loss of the national language, the growing problem of conversions to Christianity, based in part on Christian promises of life after death. What emerged from this era was two fold:
The Council of Jamnia
The Jewish Encyclopedia on the period of Jamnia
The Jewish Encyclopedia article on ACADEMIES IN PALESTINE states:
The destruction of Jerusalem put as abrupt an end to the disputes of the schools as it did to the contests between political parties Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Zealots ]. It was then that a disciple of Hillel, the venerable Johanan ben Zakkai, founded a new home for Jewish Law in Jabneh (Jamnia), and thus evoked a new intellectual life from the ruins of a fallen political existence. The college at Jabneh, which at once constituted itself the successor of the Great Sanhedrin of Jerusalem by putting into practise the ordinances of that body as far as was necessary and practicable, attracted all those who had escaped the national catastrophe and who had become prominent by their character and their learning. Moreover, it reared a new generation of similarly gifted men, whose task it became to overcome the evil results of still another dire catastrophe — the unfortunate Bar Kokba war with its melancholy ending. During the interval between these two disasters (56-117), or, more accurately, until the War of Quietus under Trajan, the school at Jabneh was the recognized tribunal that gathered the traditions of the past and confirmed them; that ruled and regulated existing conditions; and that sowed the seeds for future development. Next to its founder, it owed its splendor and its undisputed supremacy especially to the energetic Gamaliel, a great-grandson of Hillel, called Gamaliel II., or Gamaliel of Jabneh, in order to distinguish him from his grandfather, Gamaliel I. To him flocked the pupils of Johanan ben Zakkai and other masters and students of the Law and of Biblical interpretation. Though some of them taught and labored in other places — Eliezer ben Hyrcanus in Lydda; Joshua ben Hananiah in Beḳiin; Ishmael ben Elisha in Kefar Aziz, Akiba in Bene Beraḳ; Hananiah (Ḥanina) ben Teradyon in Siknin — Jabneh remained the center; and in “the vineyard” of Jabneh, as they called their place of meeting, they used to assemble for joint action.
In the fertile ground of the Jabneh Academy the roots of the literature of tradition — Midrash and Mishnah, Talmud and Aggadah — were nourished and strengthened. There, too, the way was paved for a systematic treatment of Halakah and exegesis. In Jabneh were held the decisive debates upon the canonicity of certain Biblical books; there the prayer-liturgy received its permanent form; and there, probably, was edited the Targum on the Pentateuch, which became the foundation for the later Targum called after Onkelos. It was Jabneh that inspired and sanctioned the new Greek version of the Bible — that of Akylas (Aquila). The events that preceded and followed the great civil revolution under Bar Kokba (from the year 117 to about 140) resulted in the decay and death of the school at Jabneh. According to tradition (R. H. 31b), the Sanhedrin was removed from Jabneh to Usha, from Usha back to Jabneh, and a second time from Jabneh to Usha. This final settlement in Usha indicates the ultimate spiritual supremacy of Galilee over Judea, the latter having become depopulated by the war of Hadrian. Usha remained for a long time the seat of the academy; its importance being due to the pupils of Akiba, one of whom, Judah ben Ilai, had his home in Usha. Here was undertaken the great work of the restoration of Palestinian Judaism after its disintegration under Hadrian. The study of the Law flourished anew; and Simon, a son of Gamaliel, was invested with the rank that had been his father’s in Jabneh. With him the rank of patriarch became hereditary in the house of Hillel, and the seat of the academy was made identical with that of the patriarch.
Late first century developments attributed to Jamnia
Today, there is no scholarly consensus as to when the Jewish canon was set. Nevertheless, the outcomes attributed to the Council of Jamnia did occur whether gradually or in a definitive, authoritative council. Several concerns of the remaining Jewish communities in Israel would have been the loss of the national language, the growing problem of conversions to Christianity, based in part on Christian promises of life after death. What emerged from this era was two fold:
- A rejection of the Septuagint or Koine Greek Old Testament widely then in use among the Hellenized diaspora along with its additional books not part of the Hebrew language Masoretic Text.
- The inclusion of a curse on the Minim which probably included Jewish Christians (Birkat ha-Minim). According to the Jewish Encyclopedia article on Min: “In passages referring to the Christian period, “minim” usually indicates the Judæo-Christians, the Gnostics, and the Nazarenes, who often conversed with the Rabbis on the unity of God, creation, resurrection, and similar subjects (comp. Sanh. 39b). In some passages, indeed, it is used even for “Christian”; but it is possible that in such cases it is a substitution for the word “Noẓeri,” which was the usual term for ‘Christian’… On the invitation of Gamaliel II., Samuel ha-Ḳaṭan composed a prayer against the minim which was inserted in the “Eighteen Benedictions”; it is called “Birkat ha-Minim” and forms the twelfth benediction; but instead of the original “Noẓerim” … the present text has “wela-malshinim” (=“and to the informers”). The cause of this change in the text was probably, the accusation brought by the Church Fathers against the Jews of cursing all the Christians under the name of the Nazarenes.”
(continued in next post)
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
(Continued from previous post)
The Council of Jamnia
Sociologically, these developments achieved two important ends, namely, the preservation of the Hebrew language at least for religious use (even among the diaspora) and the final separation and distinction between the Jewish and Christian communities. (Through nearly the end of the first century, Christians of Jewish descent continued to pray in synagogues.) But see also John Chrysostom#The Homilies against the Judaizers.
Some of the books not admitted into the Hebrew canon, such as Wisdom and 2 Maccabees, gave the only textual support for the common first century Jewish belief in the after-life. The martyrs’ prayers for the dead and the living praying and offering sacrifices for the dead motivated Martin Luther to reject these books as apocryphal because they supported Catholic doctrine and practice.
References
This article incorporates text from the 1901–1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, a publication now in the public domain.
The Council of Jamnia
Sociologically, these developments achieved two important ends, namely, the preservation of the Hebrew language at least for religious use (even among the diaspora) and the final separation and distinction between the Jewish and Christian communities. (Through nearly the end of the first century, Christians of Jewish descent continued to pray in synagogues.) But see also John Chrysostom#The Homilies against the Judaizers.
Some of the books not admitted into the Hebrew canon, such as Wisdom and 2 Maccabees, gave the only textual support for the common first century Jewish belief in the after-life. The martyrs’ prayers for the dead and the living praying and offering sacrifices for the dead motivated Martin Luther to reject these books as apocryphal because they supported Catholic doctrine and practice.
References
This article incorporates text from the 1901–1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, a publication now in the public domain.
J
Jolly_Joe
Guest
Well things really didn’t occur at the time of the schism.
Some of those were never a part of the Vulgate. Like 3 and 4 Maccabees. And there were others in an Appendix, like 3 and 4 Esdras (1 and 2 Esdras in the Protestant Apocrypha). At Trent, they did not list the books in the Appendix of the Vulgate as scripture, nor did they list anything not normally found in the Vulgate.
JJ
J
JMBNH
Guest
Prayer of Manasseh is the other one that was in some.
I was of the impression that these books were added to the Septuagint after Jesus, though with 3rd Ezra, 3rd Maccabees, Psalm 151 and Prayer of Manasseh that may or may not be the case, with 4 Maccabees and 4th Ezra it probably was.
They were always classified as not Scripture by theLatin Church, but the other Churches have varying extra Old Testament books (I think the Armenian Orthodox Church moved a few books to an Appendix to be inline with the Catholic Church though not 100%, though obviously all Eastern Rite Catholic Churches have changed) on top of the Catholic Canon, interestingly none have less.
I was of the impression that these books were added to the Septuagint after Jesus, though with 3rd Ezra, 3rd Maccabees, Psalm 151 and Prayer of Manasseh that may or may not be the case, with 4 Maccabees and 4th Ezra it probably was.
They were always classified as not Scripture by theLatin Church, but the other Churches have varying extra Old Testament books (I think the Armenian Orthodox Church moved a few books to an Appendix to be inline with the Catholic Church though not 100%, though obviously all Eastern Rite Catholic Churches have changed) on top of the Catholic Canon, interestingly none have less.
- Status