The serpent's question in the Garden of Eden

  • Thread starter Thread starter nanisco
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
nanisco:
Genesis 3:5 describes what the serpent said to Eve in the Garden of Eden. “God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like the gods who know what is good and what is bad.” When Mormon missionaries come to my door and ask me if I want to be a god, who am I talking to?
Click to expand...
I am indeed very “incredulous” of that experience. A Mormon missionary would not ask anyone such a question. And unlike MF, I don’t intend to apologize for saying it either. It is your word against mine. It is easy to make such allegations against someone, without having any evidence to prove it. Who is to say it happened, who is to say it didn’t? But as regards your last question, the answer to that is easy enough:

Genesis 3;

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil …
Now wasn’t that easy? You really didn’t need to ask that question did you?

amgid
 
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil …

“And so life on the Titanic as your own Captain begins”

This has been what has helped bring all the evil into the world. This is the why and reason that God the eternal Son came to die for you and I, to pay the penalty that none of us ever could. This is why mankind was banished from the garden. This is the reason we all die. The difference between God and His creation is that He knows evil but never does He partake of it. Because we are His Creation made in His image, the image of all that is good but not God, in search of our own centers we do act on it. We will always fall into our own selves because this is how creation finds it’s creator. It has been given free will to go through this process.

A servant goes out into the vineyard and is told what to do and she does it, she does not ask how much she will be paid, she does not question her Masters commands. She goes out and works only because she has been asked, she does the work for her Master looking for no gain. Another servant goes out and works, but before this servant starts to work she asks her Master how much will I be paid? Thinking of her own future she counts the hours one by one.

Genesis:

(This is the TRUTH because God is Truth he does not lie)

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

(This is the LIE Because Satan is the Father of all lies)
“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”

God’s truth triumphs for us through Christ when we turn to Him, hand over our lives to Him, in this we become a new creation. The Cross of Christ., the suffering Christ is where these things are discovered, the epiphany is discovered there. Then and only then will the above scripture be understood, a person, a soul is born again! On the other hand Satan has been defeated by the power of the Cross, his lie is only fleeting. When a child of God comes to understand this lie the Cross is discovered, a lost lamb is tossed upon His back and carried home never to wander away from the garden again.

“Life off of the Titanic begins”
 
**The precious and life-giving cross of Christ **

How precious the gift of the cross, how splendid to contemplate! In the cross there is no mingling of good and evil, as in the tree of paradise: it is wholly beautiful to behold and good to taste. The fruit of this tree is not death but life, not darkness but light. This tree does not cast us out of paradise, but opens the way for our return.

This was the tree on which Christ, like a king on a chariot, destroyed the devil, the lord of death, and freed the human race from his tyranny. This was the tree upon which the Lord like a brave warrior wounded in hands, feet and side, healed the wounds of sin that the evil serpent had inflicted on our nature. A tree once caused our death, but now a tree brings life. Once deceived by a tree, we have now repelled the cunning serpent by a tree. What an astonishing transformation! That death should become life, that decay should become immortality, that shame should become glory! Well might the holy Apostle exclaim: *Far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world! *The supreme wisdom that flowered on the cross has shown the folly of worldly wisdom’s pride. The knowledge of all good, which is the fruit of the cross, has cut away the shoots of wickedness.

The wonders accomplished through this tree were foreshadowed clearly even by the mere types and figures that existed in the past. Meditate on these, if you are eager to learn. Was it not the wood of a tree that enabled Noah, at God’s command, to escape the destruction of the flood together with his sons, his wife, his sons’ wives and every kind of animal? And surely the rod of Moses prefigured the cross when it changed water into blood, swallowed up the false serpents of Pharaoh’s magicians, divided the sea at one stroke and then restored the waters to their normal course, drowning the enemy and saving God’s own people? Aaron’s rod, which blossomed in one day in proof of his true priesthood, was another figure of the cross, and did not Abraham foreshadow the cross when he bound his son Isaac and placed him on the pile of wood? By the cross death was slain and Adam was restored to life. The cross is the glory of all the apostles, the crown of the martyrs, the sanctification of the saints. By the cross we put on Christ and cast aside our former self. By the cross we, the sheep of Christ, have been gathered into one flock, destined for the sheepfold of heaven.

From a sermon by Theodore the Studite, 9th century
 
To Amgid–

Over the years, more than one pair of Mormon missionaries have come to my door. On this particular occasion, I did not allow them to retain control of the course of the conversation. With forthrightness and honesty, I expressed my beliefs and asked questions which were clearly uncomfortable for them–they were flushing and stammering. It should have been clear to them (I will not speak for them) that they were getting “no where” with me. They appeared to be very frustrated. They then expressed that, like a father on earth, wouldn’t the “Heavenly Father” want his children to grow up to be like him? I answered that I believed that the Kingdom of God was very different from the world of man–we cannot compare our secular desires to the spiritual. It was at this point that they asked me “if I wanted to be a god.” My answer was, “no, I did not.” They were absolutely astounded.

Per others I have talked to, I am not the only one who has been asked this question. It is not your word against mine. If you want to place the issue in that arena, it is the word of the missionaries I spoke with against mine. I do not ask for or seek anyone’s apology. It is “incredulous” to me that you consider my words an allegation. Am I actually claiming that I was told the truth of Mormon belief?

Please acknowledge the remainder of Genesis 3:22. “…Therefore he must not be allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever.” Also, please reconsider “my last question.” It was, “WHO am I talking to?”
 
If God had intended them to be Imortal from the beginning he never would have placed the tree in the Garden. The only way for them to become like God was to eat of the tree… for that is the only way they could gain “knowledge” of good and evil. Only after eating the fruit where their eyes opened Gen 3:8.
 
I answered that I believed that the Kingdom of God was very different from the world of man–we cannot compare our secular desires to the spiritual. It was at this point that they asked me “if I wanted to be a god.” My answer was, “no, I did not.” They were absolutely astounded.
Click to expand...
I would be too… But your birthright is yours to do with it what you want.

If you aren’t a ‘god’ you are a child of somebody else 😉
 
40.png
Zakuska:
If God had intended them to be Imortal from the beginning he never would have placed the tree in the Garden. The only way for them to become like God was to eat of the tree… for that is the only way they could gain “knowledge” of good and evil. Only after eating the fruit where their eyes opened Gen 3:8.
Click to expand...
God intended for us to have free will. How could Adam and Eve have exercised free will if there were no choices to be made?

Are you suggesting that God secretly wanted them to eat the fruit? That he directed it in some way? There is a difference between perfect foreknowledge and predestination. God set the stage and he knows how the story will play out, but he doesn’t direct the actors.

God’s intent is to bring those of us who exercise our free will in the direction of obeying Him home to live with Him forever. Had the fruit not been eaten, we would all live with Him forever. God certainly knew that the fruit would be eaten, and that we would surely die, but that wasn’t his intent.

Like Adam and Eve, today we also have the choice whether to listen to Him, or to the one who asks us whether we want to be gods and tempts us with some very appealing, but forbidden, fruit.
 
(This is the LIE Because Satan is the Father of all lies)
“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
Click to expand...
Actually this is a half truth. Can you spot the lie mingled with the truth?

What happened to them when they ate the fruit?

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

There eyes where opened Just as Satan Said. And just as God said.

22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

All of you whe are saying Satan is tempting us with becoming a god. Are calling God a Liar. Because that was the only way for them to know Good and evil was to eat of the tree.

Gen 3:4
Though shall not surely die:

Is a lie… it goes 180 degrees of what God previously said.

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

For those who can see through Satans subtlty. Mixing truth with lies… there by corrupting it. (ala half truth)

Did Christ no say we where Gods and his children?

Pslams 82
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are achildren of the most High.

John 10
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are agods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Why are all of you trying to break scripture?

Does not the Gospel turn us into sons of God? And if Sons then Heirs Joint Heirs with Christ?
 
Our Lords Interest
….Father Raoul Plus, S.J. (1882-1958)
Adopted sons and daughters
"This is the campaign that is most urgently needed: to help each and every one to Realize fully, perhaps for the first time, the divine dignity that Baptism confers by engrafting us upon Christ Himself "

Our Lord did not come for the sake of those who are well, but for those who are in need. The soul that is lost interest Him far more than the ninety-nine that are just; the venturesome lamb that has fallen into the pit, far more that the flock that has returned dutifully home; the coin that has rolled behind the furniture, far more than the fortune of the cash-box.

His interest is in the prodigals: Mary Magdalene, the women taken in adultery, Zacchaeus the publican, Simon the Pharisee, Barabbas, and His companions on the cross. The preferences of all Christians should be of the same kind. But what integrity this demands, what moral beauty, what sanctity! Some, perhaps, may be tempted to escape the corrosive or weakening effect of such surroundings by avoiding to much contact with the masses, by seeking only the company of their friends, of those who think like them and to whom they feel more readily attracted. It is so much more pleasant to consort with those who are like you, and with whom you have ideals and interest in common.

Such a method is disastrous. If the leaven is to act upon the mass, it must be mingled with it. If it is separate from the mass, it forgets its proper task. It is a leading axiom in Catholic action not to remove good elements from the surroundings in which they exist, but rather to sanctify them so that they may serve to elevate and improve their fellows. In order to act effectively upon one’s surroundings, one must live in those surroundings; and, given the necessary virtue and power of action, the closer the contact, the greater the influence will be.

It is not literally true that is has been said of us: “You are gods,” and that we are to become “sons of God”? Let us give to these expressions their full Christian meaning. First and foremost, the baptized must learn to appreciate the incomparable privileges they have received by the sacrament which, in making them Christians, has brought the Blessed Trinity to dwell in their souls, and given them power to live the divine life, if only they will, and so long as they will. Let us lift up our heads and bear proudly the proud dignity of our Baptism.

How few of the baptized appreciate the essence of all revelations: that God dwells in the man who is in the state of grace? This is the campaign that is most urgently needed: to help each and every one to Realize fully, perhaps for the first time, the divine dignity that Baptism confers by engrafting us upon Christ Himself making us a living member of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, communicating to us the very life of the Blessed Trinity, making us partners in the royal priesthood of Christ and His Church, uniting us in a common kinship with all our baptized brethren by this spiritual solidarity, which is the Communion of Saints, consecrating us as living chalices, as living temples to the personal and social worship of the true God.
 
In the dessert Jesus was offered many things, and they all were about power and the world. This is precisely what was also offered in the garden to mankind as a whole. Jesus showed His creation how to say no, he was God, God could do this. In the garden we began to learn what God always knew. But we were His creation; we were not God so we took what the devil had to offer thinking it would make us smarter like God. But what we got was death, and this death was a result of our separation from God, all that is good.

If you had a river at the edge of your property, you would tell your children not to go over there until they wanted to learn from you how to swim. But Satan your neighbor who was once a good man, for whatever reason came to hate the very person that gave him his land; this was the children’s father. He came to the children when they were alone and told them that they could go to the river and go in. That there father was lying to them about its danger, that if they went in they could learn on their own how to swim, that this would make their father proud of them.

So they listened to that which hated God, because “that” wanted to separate God from that which God loved dearly, His children whom He had made. So the children set out on their own and made a very bad choice. They fell into the river and died. But the Father found His children at the edge of the bank and He breathed life back into them giving them another chance that only He could give.

The Children cried out to their Father and they all embraced.

Why were they given the choice to die apart from God?

Where did their wisdom come from in making the choice that they made?

Why did Jesus say no to the devil in the dessert?

Did the devil offer Jesus something bad, such as food to eat?

Why did Jesus not take it, …the food?

Where does our Wisdom come from?

Did God learn Wisdom from another?

What do you think was the children’s desire as they were being taken under by the raging River?

What were their hopes and dreams at this time?

How were they saved from the choice that they made?

Was the wisdom offered by the neighbor good wisdom?

What did the children learn?

How does eternal progression fit in here?
 
Excellent Post!

I would not necessarily equate it to a “Bad choice” though. They had two trees to choose from. But as the result “there eyes where opened” (Gen 3:7) and along with that came death that they where tricked into. Well… at least Eve was.

1 Tim. 2: 14
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam knew exactly what he was doing when he ate. He was obeying Gods command to remain with his wife. His wife had been tricked into death and he stayed with her. Thats why the womans sorrow in child baring was greatly multiplied. Adam showed his faithfullness to Gods word.

This brings up the question how did the gods come to know good and evil themselves?

22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
 
Before we go any further please read this:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#390After

When you get to this link scroll to the top and read it all slowly.

After you have read it a few times then I think we can better talk together. This is 2000 years of Christian beleif you will be absorbing. You can scroll down to check the Holy Scriptures on the fall as well to see that it is very much inline with what the church is saying.

God Bless

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
(Rom. 5:12).

…or as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive
(1 Cor. 15:22).

(Also note Rom. 5:17-19).
 
40.png
catholic-rcia:
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
(Rom. 5:12).

…or as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive
(1 Cor. 15:22).

(Also note Rom. 5:17-19).
Click to expand...
I like to contrast those verses with:
*
Galatians 3:27
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
**
Acts 22:16**
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

Romans 6:3-4
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
**
Colossians 2:12**
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
**
1 Peter 3:21**
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,*

We only participate in Christ’s death and resurrection (and the washing away of original sin) by baptism.
 
We only participate in Christ’s death and resurrection (and the washing away of original sin) by baptism.

God Bless
 
I agree with water Baptism.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So whats your point?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top