The Seven Catholic Sacraments

[jmcrae]

For me alle 4 are equally worshipping god! (inclusive the parishoners who attend a Catholic service.)

The key phrase here is “for me.”

We must think of how it is for God - not how it is for ourselves. What does God want? Should we not be giving Him what He wants, rather than just doing whatever we want?

God, the Second Person of the Trinity, Jesus, gave us the Mass. Therefore, we must assume that the Mass is how He would like for us to worship Him.

In the Old Testament, God gave a form of worship to Israel, and those who departed from it to do their own thing came to a terrible end, even though they thought it was “just as good” as what God had given to them. Do we really want to end up like them? I hope not!

 

[TimothyH]

If you want, catch up reading here and then you can partake.

Esdra

Thanks for granting me permission but I’ll have to pass for now.

Believe it or not, I actualy have to leave in a little while to go confess my sins to another human being so that the fervent prayer of a righteous man can save me.

Y’all enjoy y’selves.

-Tim-

 

[Esdra]

The key phrase here is “for me.”

We must think of how it is for God - not how it is for ourselves. What does God want? Should we not be giving Him what He wants, rather than just doing whatever we want?

God, the Second Person of the Trinity, Jesus, gave us the Mass. Therefore, we must assume that the Mass is how He would like for us to worship Him.

In the Old Testament, God gave a form of worship to Israel, and those who departed from it to do their own thing came to a terrible end, even though they thought it was “just as good” as what God had given to them. Do we really want to end up like them? I hope not!

Hi

hey, you haven’t answered the other questions in the same post!

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Thanks for granting me permission but I’ll have to pass for now.

Believe it or not, I actualy have to leave in a little while to go confess my sins to another human being so that the fervent prayer of a righteous man can save me.

Y’all enjoy y’selves.

-Tim-

Hi

all right then!

Actually you wouldn’t even need my permission.

Anyway, have a nice day!

Esdra

 

[jmcrae]

Hi

hey, you haven’t answered the other questions in the same post!

Esdra

I always try to focus on one important thing at a time.

 

[jmcrae]

So what do you think then of a Catholic service (the one worship without Holy Eucharist?)
Is this is also men-made then?

Normally, it is a Liturgy of the Word, with Holy Communion distributed afterwards - so, it is taken from the Mass, with the priest’s parts removed, since there is no priest present.

 

[jphilapy]

jlhargus;7342059:

My dear friend JL,

just tell me at this point what do you expect from me?

You see, I am not an apologetic and so well I also don’t know the Holy Bible…

Do you want me to say: “Hey, I’ve got it! I have believed nonsense all the time since I started searching for the Truth outside the CC. Tomorrow I’ll go to confession and mass and will became a cradle, devout Catholic revert?”

Do you really expect that?

Esdra

Well in your OP u seem pretty decided that you are going to enter into the protestant world of sola scriptura. But now u give us this “You see, I am not an apologetic and so well I also don’t know the Holy Bible…**”

**So if u are not competent to rightly divide the word of God then what gives you the idea that you can use scripture as your guide alone? The catholic church has 2000 years of history that you can refer to. It has the authority that Christ established. It has all the promises that scripture makes regarding the God’s Church. But for some reason you have concluded that a church that has been around for less than 500 years who’s doctrines were not heard till 1500 and probably the pastor of the church has about as much counsel that you can find in someone who has been a pastor less than 70 years. Add all those #s together and you still aint got it.

It doesn’t make sense to trade God’s history for man’s. God’s church for man’s inventions.

Traditions can be found in scripture. Sola Scriptura cannot. You want what is in scripture, we showed you. But I must ask, what do you really want?

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

JL: [Malachi 1:11 For FROM THE RISING OF THE SUN even UNTO the GOING DOWN of the same my name shall be great among THE GENTILES; and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be OFFERED unto my name, AND A PURE OFFERING: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. [That PURE OFFERING=sacrifice, this IS my body, this IS my blood, is our Eucharistic Lord, Jesus Christ. Animal sacrifces had to be clean, but they could never be pure, only Christ our sacrifice is PURE.]

[Rv 5:6 And I beheld in the midst of the throne … stood a Lamb as it had been slain… Hb 7: 17 …Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hb 7:24 … this man…continues ever…an unchangeable priesthood 25 Wherefore he is able also to save … seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them. … Hb 8…We have such an high priest… 2 A minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle …3 … every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices wherefore IT IS **OF NECESSITY THAT THIS MAN HAVE SOMEWHAT ALSO TO OFFER 4 …priests that offer gifts according to the law 5 … serve to the EXAMPLE and SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS… … 6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry… MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT … Hb9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; BUT into HEAVEN itself, NOW TO APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US:]

Christ is not just sitting and watching events, he is our High Priest interceding for us with the Father, bringing to remembrance to the Father and to us that same once for all sacrifice of the lamb on the Cross, which we eat at Mass, just as the Israelites ate their Passover lamb. [JN 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Malacahi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be OFFERED unto my name, AND A PURE OFFERING: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

The prophecy of Malachi says Gentiles will offer incense and make a pure offering (sacrifice) to the Lord’s Name from the rising to setting of the sun in every place. That is fulfilled in the Catholic Church as that same once for all sacrifice of the cross is made present at Mass which is celebrated by priests in every parish daily in all places, the Orthodox Church has this same pure offering also.

The fruit, of the the Tree of Life=Cross, our Passover Lamb is eaten at mass. [Hb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren THAT HE MIGHT BE a merciful and faithful HIGH PRIEST in things pertaining to God TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE 1Jn 2:2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.]

[Hb9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but THE HEAVENLY THINGS themselves WITH BETTER **SACRIFICES than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; BUT INTO HEAVEN ITSELF, now TO APPEAR in the presence of God FOR US:]

BETTER SACRIFICES, plural, because that once for all sacrifice of Christ is made sacramentally present to us each time mass is offered. This IS my body, this IS my blood, with these words the living memorial sacrifice is accomplished by the sacaramental separation of body and blood showing forth Christ death.

Hb12:22 but YE ARE COME UNTO MOUNT SION, and unto THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and TO GOD THE JUDGE OF ALL, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR of the new covenant, and TO THE BLOOD OF SPRINKLING, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Hb7:25 Wherefore HE IS ABLE also TO SAVE THEM to the uttermost THAT COME UNTO GOD BY HIM, seeing HE EVER LIVETH TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR THEM.

 

[Erich]

My dear friend JL,

just tell me at this point what do you expect from me?

You see, I am not an apologetic and so well I also don’t know the Holy Bible…

Do you want me to say: “Hey, I’ve got it! I have believed nonsense all the time since I started searching for the Truth outside the CC. Tomorrow I’ll go to confession and mass and will became a cradle, devout Catholic revert?”

Do you really expect that?

Esdra

Matthew 19:26 – Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

 

[jlhargus]

jlhargus;7342059:

My dear friend JL,

just tell me at this point what do you expect from me?

You see, I am not an apologetic and so well I also don’t know the Holy Bible…

Do you want me to say: “Hey, I’ve got it! I have believed nonsense all the time since I started searching for the Truth outside the CC. Tomorrow I’ll go to confession and mass and will became a cradle, devout Catholic revert?” Do you really expect that? Esdra

JL: Well that would be your best choice. I would also expect real or no answer to condesending flippent remarks when you have no answer.

Your post above, “I also don’t know the Holy Bible”. Yet you posted in your previous post to me,
“and again, just like PJM catechising. Do you think I don’t know scripture?!”

 

[KathleenGee]

What is critical to true revelation is the testimony of witness.

Jesus did not come walking out of a desert and then begin performing miracles and conquering peoples…

Instead, we begin our faith journey with the shared creation stories that come from that region of the worlds of a number of ancient peoples…eventually to Abraham, the beginning of the true faith in God found within the Jewish people. We study their journey, their captivity in Egypt, and how God through Moses, led them to the Promised Land.

We study their histories, the prophets who foretold the coming of the Messiah, the root of Jesse…a man of sufferings…not a triumphantalist. At the beginning of Jesus’ ministry at the River Jordan, it is St. John the Baptist and his followers who witness the Trinity, and then Jesus selecting His apostles…not one or two, but 12…representing the 12 tribes of Israel, and at Pentecost, then 12 symbolizing the perfect number of the universal church.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem, which means House of Bread. His birth was witnessed by the poor shepherds, and the Angel specifically told them to look for the Infant wrapped in swaddling clothes and placed in a manger—an animal feeder to symbolize that some day He would become food for us…that would bring us Eternal Life.

Note how Adam and Eve foretook of the forbidden fruit out of disobedience, to be come as gods…but instead were removed from the Garden of Eden and forced to work the soil from where the Forbidden Tree grew.

But not only did Christ have witness, but the themes of the New Adam found throughout Scripture…to Jesus dying on a tree to Jesus restoring man, breaking the curse of original sin, and offering to mankind what was lost to Adam and Eve, now offered again…The Tree of Eternal Life…the Eucharist. Jesus referred to Himself as the living bread come down from heaven…

There was manna from heaven that fed the Jews when they were lost in the desert and then to Jesus feeding the multiple with the bread and fish. Jesus uses bread and wine to represent His body and blood…and told the Apostles to eat of His flesh and blood, ‘do this in memory of Me’…their calling to become His priests at the banquet table.

 

[KathleenGee]

Please note that St. Justin the Martyr was asked by Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius around the year 155 AD to explain to him what happened at the Christian map. By that time, just 60 years or so after the death of St. John the Apostle, people were partaking in ‘the Secret’, the Breaking of Bread in a common form throughout the beginning Christian world, and without modern communications, we can only make an act of faith that this growing uniformity of worship was the working of the Holy Spirit.

Here he talks in the First Apology 67, ‘Sunday Mass in Rome’.
"On the day called Sunday, all who lie in the cities or countryside gather in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits. Then when the reader has finished, the president (priest/presbyter) instructs and exhorts them to imitate these good things. Then we are all rise together and pray…When our prayer is ended, bread and wine with water are brought forth, and the president offers prayers and thanksgiving, according to his ability. The people assent, saying “Amen”; and there is a distribution to each of the eucharistic elements. The deacons carry a portion to those who are absent.

Those who are able give willingly whatever sum they each think appropriate. The money is collected is deposited with the president. He gives it, then, to comfort orphans, widows, and those who are wanting, through sickness or any other cause, and those who are imprisoned, and strangers travelling among us. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.

Sunday is when we hold our assembly because it is the first day on which God brought forth the world from darkness and matter. On the same day, Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on the day before Saturn’s Day (Saturday); and on the day after Saturn’s day, which is the day of the sun, he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them these things, which we have submitted to you for your consideration…"

It was on the evening of the Resurrection, that the Lord instituted the sacrament of confession/penance and gave the apostles His power to forgive sin…

 

[Esdra]

Normally, it is a Liturgy of the Word, with Holy Communion distributed afterwards - so, it is taken from the Mass, with the priest’s parts removed, since there is no priest present.

That’s right.

And do you see something negative in that?
*You know, this has become very popular here in Austria as well.
As in former days people never went to a liturgy of the word service only, but also to a mass the same day, nowadays (also because there are not always masses on Sundays) they see it as sufficent. And this is what CATHOLICS here think, and not only myself. *

Because this is exactely the same (okay, more or less) how, let’s say Lutherans, celebrate their services.
And actually nearly all other denominations as well. Well, except maybe without Holy Supper afterwards! (Like the Baptists celebrating it only once a month.)

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Hi all,

all right, it’s getting to hard for me in here.

You all seem to try to catechise and convince me with all possibilities to think that Sola Scriptura is crab.

I’ve answered a question and I got good answers to that.

But in the meantime we are way off topic.

That’s not a problem for me, we can discuss further together in this forum, but PLEASE don’t try to catechise me (especially not with “pages” of verses from Scripture which, according to you, proove that the CC is the "one and only correct Christian faith!!)

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Hi all,

all right, it’s getting to hard for me in here.

You all seem to try to catechise and convince me with all possibilities to think that Sola Scriptura is crab.

I’ve answered a question and I got good answers to that.

But in the meantime we are way off topic.

That’s not a problem for me, we can discuss further together in this forum, but PLEASE don’t try to catechise me (especially not with “pages” of verses from Scripture which, according to you, proove that the CC is the "one and only correct Christian faith!!)

Esdra

Hi

you see concerning sola scriptura:

Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel.
They are so convinced from that like you are when talking about the ECF or the ST.

I believe in Sola scriptura. - In your eyes there might be no logical reason to do so, just as I and you see no logical reason in seeing the BoM as the “correctest book on Earth” and describing the history of the American Natives.

Esdra

 

[StTommyMore]

Hi

you see concerning sola scriptura:

Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel.
They are so convinced from that like you are when talking about the ECF or the ST.

I believe in Sola scriptura. - In your eyes there might be no logical reason to do so, just as I and you see no logical reason in seeing the BoM as the “correctest book on Earth” and describing the history of the American Natives.

Esdra

The problem with rejecting the Early fathers i you end up with an incomplete faith. The Fathers “fill in the blanks” to answer the questions n which the Scriptures are not clear. For example, Arius used Scripture to defend his position that the Son was created by the Father. It took a council to refute this. Not only is it noce to hve Sacred Tradition, we NEED Sacred Tradition.

 

[jphilapy]

Hi

you see concerning sola scriptura:

Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel.
They are so convinced from that like you are when talking about the ECF or the ST.

I believe in Sola scriptura. - In your eyes there might be no logical reason to do so, just as I and you see no logical reason in seeing the BoM as the “correctest book on Earth” and describing the history of the American Natives.

Esdra

The only thing you are telling us is you really don’t care what scripture says. The one doctrine that you bolster your decision with isn’t even found in scripture. But that doesn’t appear to matter to you at all.

 

[JRKH]

Hi all,

all right, it’s getting to hard for me in here.

You all seem to try to catechise and convince me with all possibilities to think that Sola Scriptura is crab.

I’ve answered a question and I got good answers to that.

But in the meantime we are way off topic.

That’s not a problem for me, we can discuss further together in this forum, but PLEASE don’t try to catechise me (especially not with “pages” of verses from Scripture which, according to you, proove that the CC is the "one and only correct Christian faith!!)

Esdra

Esdra,
I’m sorry that it is getting hard in here for you and I agree that this thread has wasndered far from it’s original topic, but please don’t chastize us for our attempts to catechize you, most especially for doing so using the bible itself.

If you take anything away from this converstaion I would hope that it is this.
Using the Bible (and private interpretation) alone, can and does lead to very different conclusions by different people.
You yourself have said, (here or on the deutero thread, I can’ t remember which) that you were “building your own religion” based on your reading of the bible and then discovered that the “Baptists” believed pretty much the same as you. Yet we Catholics have thoroughly demonstrated that the Catholic Church can just as easily be found in the pages of the Bible as the “Baptist” church.
So - what is the bottom line here? Using the Bible, along with private interpretation, seperate from The Universal Ekklesia (community/Church) can lead to all sorts of beliefs and conclusions. This is the fruit of Sola Scriptura…

In the end you are making the same mistake that many others have made. You are leaving the Church, not because of what she actually is and teaches (which is all thoroughly bible based). Rather you are leaving because of some (many) poor examples of discipleship and because you don’t understand some/many of the teachings. You are leaving, not because the Church is false, but because the Church does not agree with you, who are the final arbiter in the Sola Scriptura world.

I’m sorry if the above sounds harsh. You know from our exchanges that I have a great respect for your desire to learn and to seek the Truth. However I would not feel comfortable leaving this conversation if I did not say clearly that, if you are seeking Truth - Look at Church teaching and not at the actions or opinions of those poor examples next to you in the pew. Look at Church Teaching and seek to understand what you are leaving on a Doctrinal level.
You are young. That is pretty apparent. If God is leading you out into the wilderness of Protestantism, so be it. He knows best. But remember, like the Prodigal Son, where your true home is. And when the promise and allure of “contemporary services” and “emotional responses” wears thin (and it will) and you find yourself lost in the sea of protestant, “Sola Scriptura” contraditions, remember that Christ will welcome you back home to His True Church and his True Body and Blood.

Peace
James

 

[Esdra]

The only thing you are telling us is you really don’t care what scripture says. The one doctrine that you bolster your decision with isn’t even found in scripture. But that doesn’t appear to matter to you at all.

Hi

well, to be perfectly honest, yes.

You could say so…

To stay with the Mormons: They also believe in sola scriptura and can’t find it in their Holy Scriptures…

You see, it took me 8 years of my life to build up “my own theology” based on the bible.
And guess what happened? Baptists (and other fundamentalists who have sola scriptura or/ and are “reborns”) believe nearly exactly the same!

Can you imagine how astonished I was to have finally found people that think as I do. That I understand them and that they understand me?
They are a family. I was at once adopted.
I have never realized anything like that in the CC (and at least I was 16 years of my life a more or less good Catholic!)

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Esdra,
I’m sorry that it is getting hard in here for you and I agree that this thread has wasndered far from it’s original topic, but please don’t chastize us for our attempts to catechize you, most especially for doing so using the bible itself.

If you take anything away from this converstaion I would hope that it is this.
Using the Bible (and private interpretation) alone, can and does lead to very different conclusions by different people.
You yourself have said, (here or on the deutero thread, I can’ t remember which) that you were “building your own religion” based on your reading of the bible and then discovered that the “Baptists” believed pretty much the same as you. Yet we Catholics have thoroughly demonstrated that the Catholic Church can just as easily be found in the pages of the Bible as the “Baptist” church.
So - what is the bottom line here? Using the Bible, along with private interpretation, seperate from The Universal Ekklesia (community/Church) can lead to all sorts of beliefs and conclusions. This is the fruit of Sola Scriptura…

In the end you are making the same mistake that many others have made. You are leaving the Church, not because of what she actually is and teaches (which is all thoroughly bible based). Rather you are leaving because of some (many) poor examples of discipleship and because you don’t understand some/many of the teachings. You are leaving, not because the Church is false, but because the Church does not agree with you, who are the final arbiter in the Sola Scriptura world.

I’m sorry if the above sounds harsh. You know from our exchanges that I have a great respect for your desire to learn and to seek the Truth. However I would not feel comfortable leaving this conversation if I did not say clearly that, if you are seeking Truth - Look at Church teaching and not at the actions or opinions of those poor examples next to you in the pew. Look at Church Teaching and seek to understand what you are leaving on a Doctrinal level.
You are young. That is pretty apparent. If God is leading you out into the wilderness of Protestantism, so be it. He knows best. But remember, like the Prodigal Son, where your true home is. And when the promise and allure of “contemporary services” and “emotional responses” wears thin (and it will) and you find yourself lost in the sea of protestant, “Sola Scriptura” contraditions, remember that Christ will welcome you back home to His True Church and his True Body and Blood.

Peace
James

Hi

thanks.

See this is post that’d help me!

I am young, I am in my Free Evangelical Church and I am feeling well there.
In fact I am feeling like one of them. (And not like a Catholic).

And although I already have known that that I can go back to the CC in case that I’ll be welcomed with open arms, from other posts here in CAF (before I didn’t. I’ve even thought that “the seperated brothers” are seen as sects and as dangerous etc, because I’ve seen that attidude from various Catholics…)
I will certainly keep this, your, sentence in my heart.

And I hope that I’d really be able to find my home in the CC when everything other scatters apart (concerning protestantism).

Esdra