The Seven Catholic Sacraments

[DebChris]

Hi all,

yes, maybe I’ll go to Cursillo once as it is offered in my area.

Actually I was looking for Christ (and up to the time I was participating more here in CAF) I was pretty to sure to have found Him in my (Ana)baptist community.

But something is missing and I guess this is the reason why I am writing here in a Catholic forum…
I mean, despite the contemporary stuff and the rosary, I actually don’t even know what’s missing.
You may say confession and the Real Presence, but I guess that’s not what I am missing.
Actually, my pastor would say: Just quit writing here in CAF, but somehow I can’t do that either…

Esdra

Once you make Cursillo, you will have a better understanding.
We can discuss the Real Presence and the Seven Sacraments, and it can all remain at an intellectual level. How does somebody describe Love, even after it is experienced on an intimate and personal level? How can we understand Love before the heart is involved? When this happens you will know what is currently missing, even if you cannot use words to describe the experience.
Making Cursillo is a step in Faith, hope in that which is unseen.
In the meantime, continue praying the rosary daily. Go to Mass regularly, listening carefully as the Word is proclaimed. Ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten your heart and mind.
The Sacraments are an efficacious sign of God’s grace working in our lives. They are an outward sign of God’s work within us.

 

[JustaServant]

Actually, my pastor would say: Just quit writing here in CAF, but somehow I can’t do that either…

Esdra

That should ring alarm bells right there Esdra.
I have been where you are now, so I understand your zeal and enthusiam. But please keep this in mind:
Any religion/philosophy that makes your world smaller, is a crippled religion/philosophy.

 

[JRKH]

Hi all,

yes, maybe I’ll go to Cursillo once as it is offered in my area.

Actually I was looking for Christ (and up to the time I was participating more here in CAF) I was pretty to sure to have found Him in my (Ana)baptist community.

I am very glad to see this. I believe that anything you do to grow in your understanding of the Catholic faith will go far in helping you discern where you need to be.

Something I was thinking of last evening was - Since you have come here to CAF, have we not treated you like family? Since you say the Catholic Church in your area seems to be lacking, why not consider all of us as that family, community, fellowship that you seek. I know we’re distant, but we’re firm in our faith, we Love you and want only the best for you and each other. Please consider us your Catholic Family.

But something is missing and I guess this is the reason why I am writing here in a Catholic forum…
I mean, despite the contemporary stuff and the rosary, I actually don’t even know what’s missing.
You may say confession and the Real Presence, but I guess that’s not what I am missing.
Actually, my pastor would say: Just quit writing here in CAF, but somehow I can’t do that either…

Esdra, this is the thing. You won’t know what is missing until God shows you in your heart. I applaud you for honestly searching for Truth. That is why you can’t quite give up either, because you see good in both.
When you are convicted in your Catholic faith you will be such a fine spokesperson and example that others will flock around you. I don’t say that to inflate your ego, but to show how one holy person, channeling the Love of God and the Holy Spirit, can make a difference.

I suspect that in a country like yours where church and state are heavily intigrated there will be a level of what we in America refer to as “cultural” or “nominal catholic”. People who are “catholic” in name (baptized) and who may even “go through the motions” but have not been converted in their hearts. The conversion of the heart is what you are seeking and it is harder to find when you are surrounded by nominal catholics. This is what has attracted you to the Baptist community - the fervor and Love they show, which is quite real - don’t think I am putting them down.
Here at CAF you have found a catholic community to match your baptist one. We are fervent in our Love for God and love to share it. Stay by us and we shall study together.

Peace
James

 

[JustaServant]

So you see? I rose up in a Catholic country but never really were taught the Catholic faith!
Actually I don’t wonder at all that I so broke away (well, more or less) from the CC!
And frankly, I believe most others in my age and younger are in the same situation.
Well, maybe they won’ start searching like I did - maybe they just end up living their live as Atheists or try to find what they long for in their heart in occultism.

Esdra

Many post Vatican 2 Catholics experienced the same thing (as did I), its very sad. I walked away for twenty years, even became a preacher. When I returned to the CC I told one old Catholic school friend. Being nominal he looked at me with complete disinterest. I might as well have told him I changed political parties.
But don’t judge a 2000 year old institution by the people who were it like a label. The Church is much bigger than that. If we judged Christianity by those that call themselves ‘christians’, we’re in trouble.
Keep reading my friend.

 

[jmcrae]

yes, nice. But what to do if this sounds spanish to one? I hope you understand what I try to say…

It is as close to a personal relationship with Jesus as you can get, this side of Heaven - and you can’t get anything like it, in a Baptist Church. The Baptists will freely admit to you that their Communion is only a symbol - an ordinance of obedience - not a Sacrament, and not anything real - in fact, they firmly believe that it would be very superstitious, to think that Communion could ever be actually real.

You can have a bunch of jumping around and singing in a Baptist church that makes you feel nice, but that’s not really Jesus, in the way that Catholic Holy Communion is really Jesus - the dancing and singing is just an emotional experience.

The real Jesus is in the Tabernacle at your Catholic Church. Not in all that jumping around and singing, fun though that may be.

(And there is no law that Catholics can’t jump around and sing from time to time - as long as it’s not during Mass. There are such things as Catholic Youth Rallies, and Catholic Bible Camps, too, if you know where to look.

 

[DebChris]

It is as close to a personal relationship with Jesus as you can get, this side of Heaven - and you can’t get anything like it, in a Baptist Church. The Baptists will freely admit to you that their Communion is only a symbol - an ordinance of obedience - not a Sacrament, and not anything real - in fact, they firmly believe that it would be very superstitious, to think that Communion could ever be actually real.

You can have a bunch of jumping around and singing in a Baptist church that makes you feel nice, but that’s not really Jesus, in the way that Catholic Holy Communion is really Jesus - the dancing and singing is just an emotional experience.

The real Jesus is in the Tabernacle at your Catholic Church. Not in all that jumping around and singing, fun though that may be.

(And there is no law that Catholics can’t jump around and sing from time to time - as long as it’s not during Mass. There are such things as Catholic Youth Rallies, and Catholic Bible Camps, too, if you know where to look.

I enjoy Praise and Worship services. As jmcrae states, there are definitely times when we as Catholics express our joy in the Lord this way. While John the Baptist lived in the desert, Jesus was invited to many parties. His first miracle was changing water to wine.
Every relationship has solemn moments, times when we need to be still, to listen to one another. Scripture says, “Be still and know that I am God.” Prayer is more than reciting the formulas we learned as children. It also includes listening. What is God trying to tell us individually and collectively? During the Mass, we listen as the Word is proclaimed. We praise God during the Responsorial Psalm. We listen as we recall the Life of Christ during the Gospel reading. During the Liturgy of the Eucharist, we enter the most solemn part of the Mass when we witness the Sacrifice that secured our redemption. We are invited to enter the mystery by which water and wine become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, to be nourished and incorporated into Christ.
"Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them. [John 6:56]

 

[Esdra]

It is as close to a personal relationship with Jesus as you can get, this side of Heaven - and you can’t get anything like it, in a Baptist Church. The Baptists will freely admit to you that their Communion is only a symbol - an ordinance of obedience - not a Sacrament, and not anything real - in fact, they firmly believe that it would be very superstitious, to think that Communion could ever be actually real.

You can have a bunch of jumping around and singing in a Baptist church that makes you feel nice, but that’s not really Jesus, in the way that Catholic Holy Communion is really Jesus - the dancing and singing is just an emotional experience.

The real Jesus is in the Tabernacle at your Catholic Church. Not in all that jumping around and singing, fun though that may be.

(And there is no law that Catholics can’t jump around and sing from time to time - as long as it’s not during Mass. There are such things as Catholic Youth Rallies, and Catholic Bible Camps, too, if you know where to look.

Hi

apropros superstitious:
Some weeks ago I was in a Charismatic worship with a good friend and former class mate of mine who is a deeply faithful Catholic ('though she has been in the Charismatic Renewal since she has been 12!).
There was a statue of Mary and of course the monstrance (the real presence).

I had a wonderful experience there (all of a sudden in the quiet time I got really hot from inside like the hot summer sun would shine on my breast and the Holy Spirit gave me a lot of pictures and bible verses which I was free to share in this charismatic catholic gathering) and I told this experience also our Pastor and he said that that would be great and I then even told that as an experience with Jesus in service; but Pastor Willy also said that I should be careful to make this feeling dependent upon the real presence. He said he doesn’t believe that that had to do sth with my experience and I should be careful not to make external things responsible for my experiences with Jesus (like this one).
So I guess you could say that he also thought that the real presence and the Mary statue are superstition somehow…

Esdra

 

[DebChris]

Hi

apropros superstitious:
Some weeks ago I was in a Charismatic worship with a good friend and former class mate of mine who is a deeply faithful Catholic ('though she has been in the Charismatic Renewal since she has been 12!).
There was a statue of Mary and of course the monstrance (the real presence).

I had a wonderful experience there (all of a sudden in the quiet time I got really hot from inside like the hot summer sun would shine on my breast and the Holy Spirit gave me a lot of pictures and bible verses which I was free to share in this charismatic catholic gathering) and I told this experience also our Pastor and he said that that would be great and I then even told that as an experience with Jesus in service; but Pastor Willy also said that I should be careful to make this feeling dependent upon the real presence. He said he doesn’t believe that that had to do sth with my experience and I should be careful not to make external things responsible for my experiences with Jesus (like this one).
So I guess you could say that he also thought that the real presence and the Mary statue are superstition somehow…

Esdra

I want to focus first on the point you put in parenthesis about your friend being a Charismatic since she was 12 and also a devout Catholic. You will find this true for most Charismatics. Many young men entering seminary today do so because of their involvement in the Charismatic Renewal of the Church. This work of the Holy Spirit has papal blessing from Pope Paul VI to our current Pope Benedict XVI.
You were able to share your personal experience under the discernment of more senior members of the group. Yes, discernment is very much a part of the Renewal.
When we are in the presence of somebody we love, we get very excited. My grandchildren run to me whether I have been away for a single day, or for a month. We are God’s children. There is no reason that we cannot run to Him with the same excitement.
How many times do parents also tell their children to “be quiet,” to “be patient,” to “settle down” so that they can listen to the instruction the parent, or teacher has to give? Our excitement, our emotions, are merely a response to the person. Our lack of emotional response does not mean the person is not there.
The story of Mary and Martha comes to mind at the moment. Martha continued to do all the work that is necessary to being a good hostess. Mary, on the other hand, chose the better part by giving her full attention to their guest, Jesus. She sat at his feet and listened.
When the disciples accompanied Jesus on the way to Emmaus, they recognized Him in the breaking of the bread. *They said to each other, “Were our hearts not burning within us while he was talking to us on the road, while he was opening the scriptures for us?” * [Luke 24:32].

 

[JRKH]

Hi

apropros superstitious:
Some weeks ago I was in a Charismatic worship with a good friend and former class mate of mine who is a deeply faithful Catholic ('though she has been in the Charismatic Renewal since she has been 12!).
There was a statue of Mary and of course the monstrance (the real presence).

I had a wonderful experience there (all of a sudden in the quiet time I got really hot from inside like the hot summer sun would shine on my breast and the Holy Spirit gave me a lot of pictures and bible verses which I was free to share in this charismatic catholic gathering) and I told this experience also our Pastor and he said that that would be great and I then even told that as an experience with Jesus in service; but Pastor Willy also said that I should be careful to make this feeling dependent upon the real presence. He said he doesn’t believe that that had to do sth with my experience and I should be careful not to make external things responsible for my experiences with Jesus (like this one).
So I guess you could say that he also thought that the real presence and the Mary statue are superstition somehow…

Esdra

I’m not sure whether I am reading this entirely right so would appreicate a bit of clarification. Is “Pastor Willie” your catholic pastor or you Baptist Pastor. At this point I am asuming it is your Baptist pastor…

In any case there is some truth in it. We do need to be careful not to tie these things to “externals”. It is not the statue or the monstrance (objects) that are responsible for your experience, but the real presence of Christ. Christ in the Eucharist (this is my body…), in the gathering (where two or three are gathered…) and in your heart.
So - While I would agree that the statue had little to do with your experience, I would disagree that the “real presence” in the Holy Eucharist had nothing to do with it.
You were in, not only the spiritual presence of Christ, but His physical presence as well.
How great and Glorious a gift is this.

Peace
James

 

[beth40n2]

Before I joined the Catholic church 6 years ago I read the whole Catechism of the Catholic Church to make sure I believed what she taught. You might want to read it before leaving to learn more about your faith. Too many people leave because of lack of knowledge.

 

[Esdra]

I’m not sure whether I am reading this entirely right so would appreicate a bit of clarification. Is “Pastor Willie” your catholic pastor or you Baptist Pastor. At this point I am asuming it is your Baptist pastor…

In any case there is some truth in it. We do need to be careful not to tie these things to “externals”. It is not the statue or the monstrance (objects) that are responsible for your experience, but the real presence of Christ. Christ in the Eucharist (this is my body…), in the gathering (where two or three are gathered…) and in your heart.
So - While I would agree that the statue had little to do with your experience, I would disagree that the “real presence” in the Holy Eucharist had nothing to do with it.
You were in, not only the spiritual presence of Christ, but His physical presence as well.
How great and Glorious a gift is this.

Peace
James

Hi

yes, you are right, I was talking about my Baptist Pastor.

You see, in the German speaking countries there is a severe difference between pastor and priest:
In the Orthodox Churches and the CC priests are called priests. [which means in German as well “Pfarrer” as well “Priester”. More common is the use of “Pfarrer”]
In the Lutheran Evangelical Church, the Reformed Evangelical Church and the “fundamental Evangelical Churches” (Like Baptists, Anabaptists or Pentecostals) they are called pastors!
The term Pastor is usually reserved for the various Protestant Churches ONLY!
[So, I was rather confused when you were using pastor for a Catholic priest when I at first read that here in CAF! ]

By the way: I haven’t been for a while in contact with a Catholic priest/pastor!

Esdra

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi all,

as you know, I am on the process leaving the CC for a Baptist Church.
This means that it is very important for me that everything which I believe is based on the Bible (which means it says in the Bible.)

Here are the 7 Catholic Sacraments:

**Baptism **-- is rather clear to me: There are several references in the New Testament (like the most famous John 3:5)
Eucharist – has been VERY often quoted here in CAF (John 6:54-55)

Reconciliation
Confirmation – Maybe Acts 2?
Marriage
Holy Orders
Anointing of the Sick – James 5:14-15

My question now is where in the Bible they are excately mentioned. I am wondering especially because Martin Luther for example said that Baptism and the Last Supper only can be found in the Bible. (Please correct me, dear Lutherans, if I am wrong…)

So, what I already know or believe to know, I have already written in the list. But I’d be really grateful if someone would tell me the exact Bible verses of the remnant 3 Sacraments (Reconciliation, Marriage and Holy Orders.)

I’m really looking forward to your answers!

In Christ,
Esdra

There are three sacraments

1. Baptism
   Romans6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

1. Remembrance (communion)
   1Cor.11:23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

1. Humility (foot washing)
   Jn.13:4He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

5After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

6Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

7Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

 

[Esdra]

There are three sacraments

1. Baptism
   Romans6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

1. Remembrance (communion)
   1Cor.11:23For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

1. Humility (foot washing)
   Jn.13:4He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

5After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

6Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

7Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

Hi Richard, my friend!

Since we have been corresponding some time earlier, I know that you are a SDA.

The Baptists (we) have the first two;
but as far as I know the foot washing as a sacrement is typically for SDA, right?

Esdra

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi Richard, my friend!

Since we have been corresponding some time earlier, I know that you are a SDA.

The Baptists (we) have the first two;
but as far as I know the foot washing as a sacrement is typically for SDA, right?

Esdra

Well, If you go by what Jesus says, it’s for everyone.

Jn13
12So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet.

15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

16Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

17If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

 

[Esdra]

Well, If you go by what Jesus says, it’s for everyone.

Jn13
12So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet.

15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

16Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

17If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

Hi,

yes, I know that foot washing is important.
It’s also a symbol that we should serve each other.
But for me this is no sacrament.

Our pastor has often talked about foot washing, but never in a sense of sacrament - and never literal! Only as a symbol that we should serve each other.

Esdra

 

[JRKH]

Hi

yes, you are right, I was talking about my Baptist Pastor.

You see, in the German speaking countries there is a severe difference between pastor and priest:
In the Orthodox Churches and the CC priests are called priests. [which means in German as well “Pfarrer” as well “Priester”. More common is the use of “Pfarrer”]
In the Lutheran Evangelical Church, the Reformed Evangelical Church and the “fundamental Evangelical Churches” (Like Baptists, Anabaptists or Pentecostals) they are called pastors!
The term Pastor is usually reserved for the various Protestant Churches ONLY!
[So, I was rather confused when you were using pastor for a Catholic priest when I at first read that here in CAF! ]

By the way: I haven’t been for a while in contact with a Catholic priest/pastor!

Esdra

Thanks for the clarification.
The confusion comes from the fact that in the U.S. our priests (refered to as “father”) is also the “Pastor” of the parish. In the proestant realm the terms used can be pastor, preacher, reverend etc. About the only term that overlaps is “Pastor” and so my uncertanty.

Peace
James

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Hi,

yes, I know that foot washing is important.
It’s also a symbol that we should serve each other.
But for me this is no sacrament.

Our pastor has often talked about foot washing, but never in a sense of sacrament - and never literal! Only as a symbol that we should serve each other.

Esdra

Jn.13
4He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

5After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

6Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

7Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

11For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

12So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet.

15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

16Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

17If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

This seems clear to me. Jesus takes a towel and wraps it around Himself and very literally washes His disciples feet. He then gives this instruction.
“For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.”
Sounds pretty literal to me.

 

[JRKH]

Jn.13
4He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

5After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

6Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

7Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

11For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

12So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

13Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

14If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another’s feet.

15For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

16Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

17If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

This seems clear to me. Jesus takes a towel and wraps it around Himself and very literally washes His disciples feet. He then gives this instruction.
“For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.”
Sounds pretty literal to me.

Peter, while this is fine and interesting, it seem somewhat off topic.
The topic of this thread is “Catholic Sacraments”, not SDA Sacraments".

Peace
James

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Stay on topic please

 

[Esdra]

Thanks for the clarification.
The confusion comes from the fact that in the U.S. our priests (refered to as “father”) is also the “Pastor” of the parish. In the proestant realm the terms used can be pastor, preacher, reverend etc. About the only term that overlaps is “Pastor” and so my uncertanty.

Peace
James

so in Europe father would be “Pfarrer” (the also existing Term “Vater” is seldom used nowadays!) who can be the “pastor” of a parish (but there can be more than one father; For example in our Parish we have two fathers [one of them is cooperator], one deacon and 3-4 “pastoral assistents” [who have studied CC theology but who don’t have any vocation.])

But as Austria is a Catholic dominated country, I for example know that the pastor of our local Lutheran Evangelical Church is normally referred to “Evangelischer Pfarrer” (= evangelical father), although the correct German term would be “Pastor” (= pastor).

Among the “Free Evangelical Churches” such termes are in general seldom used, as all are priests and the pastor is “only” the Church leader. ('Though I do, as I have a lot of contact with our pastor, as he is somehow my “godfather in Christ” [Hope you understand what I mean; this means that he was the first and most important person to talk with concerning believe; And I have learned a lot from him!]
So he normally doesn’t see himself as something “higher”, like some Catholic priests behaved, especially in former times.
Church leader/pastor is simply another activity in the Church like baking cakes and making coffee for the sitting together after Church, or the worship/praise-team or cleaning; or preecher, which is also another seperate activity in our church; although our pastor, or our elder, usually preeches himself in service.

Esdra