The Seventh Seal and doubt

[codesmith]

Have you ever seen the movie “The Seventh Seal”, by Ingmar Bergman?

The confession seen in the movie has echoed my core frustration with belief in God for the past 30 years. Am I too arrogant? Too analytical? There is a constant battle within me between metaphysical naturalism and some wish/desire that there is more. I WANT to believe, but also want to see, and put my hand into Jesus’ wounds, as did Thomas. But I cannot. I thought I was back to my cradle Catholic faith a few years back, but have fallen back into my almost lifelong agnosticism.

youtube.com/watch?v=nT2qRdffNik

Priest/Death: What are you waiting for?

Block: Knowledge.

Priest/Death: You want a guarantee.

Block: Call it what you will.

Block: Is it so hard to conceive God with one’s senses? Why must He hide in a midst of vague promises and invisible miracles? How are we to believe the believers when we don’t believe ourselves? What will become of us who want to believe but cannot? And what of those who neither will nor can believe? Why can I not kill God within me? Why does He go on living in a painful, humiliating way? I want to tear Him out of my heart, but He remains a mocking reality which I cannot get rid of. Do you hear me?

Priest/Death: I hear you.

Block: I want knowledge. Not belief. Not surmise. But knowledge. I want God to put out His hand, show His face, speak to me.

Priest/Death: But He is silent.

Block: I cry to Him in the dark, but there seems to be no one there.

Priest/Death: Perhaps there is no one there.

 

[Polycarp1]

Waiting for God to make the first move? It doesn’t work that way in my experience. He is Creator and we are just the creation. Us demanding anything from Him is pure arrogance and unbridled pride on our part. In truth though He has made untold moves in trying to get us to reach out to Him but we hold back and say “Prove to me that You exist” when we have a whole universe as proof. He could have created us so that we had no choice but to believe, but that would take away free choice and the grace of faith. Free choice is what we need to be human for without it love would be impossible.

Thomas demanded a sign but the Lord said “Blessed are those who haven’t seen but yet believe”. He knew we would need the grace of Faith to attain heaven. Good thing He loves us although sometimes I wonder how he puts up with us!

 

[Deus_tecum]

Belief and faith are choices…choices God wants us to make but does not force us to make. Were everything proven to you, then you would have belief but not faith.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

Though thoroughly Roman Catholic and raised in the faith from childhood, because of my ethnic Jewish background my “concept” of God and how I relate to God is a bit different from the average Catholic. This is largely due to my culture and its longer time with monotheism than others, but it may help to see things from a different perspective if I share a little something about how we perceive God compared to Gentiles.

In the musical The Book of Mormon, the protagonist Elder Kevin Price comes to a point where he must ask himself if he is truly living the life of a faithful Latter-Day Saint. After saying “that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America,” Elder Price affirms: “I am a Mormon,” adding, "and a Mormon just believes."

That sounds like it doesn’t work for you. And well it shouldn’t.

Belief is just a static mental conception, accepting that something is. You can believe that you live on Earth because you know this by evidence, but you can also believe your friend will pay you back the money you loaned him, even though you’ve never lent him money before. “Belief” can therefore be important, but it’s just a start.

St. James stated: “You believe that there is one God? Well and good, but the demons also believe this, and thus they tremble.” (James 2:19) “Belief” that God exists doesn’t come with any guarantees or warrants any special merit. Since demons believe, in fact actually know God personally, a mere mental concept by you that “God is” means little.

Is God not Real?

Let’s say, however, that you are at the point of holding God as a myth. Very well. But at least on the level of myth, God is real, very real. How so? My people, the Jews, have been hated and persecuted on the basis of this “myth” for centuries. From the pogroms to the Spanish Inquisition and then to the horrors of the Shoah (the Holocaust), facets of humanity have thought up new evils–some at great expense–in order to destroy these people of “the myth.”

How real is God? Very real, even if God was just a myth. This “myth” has caused the Jews to become central to history, so much so that the world was plunged into a world war over their very existence. For me as a Jew whose ancestors were greatly persecuted in the Spanish Inquisition and who lost literally millions of relatives during the Shoah, God cannot be “unreal.” I exist. My people exist. We are very real. We might believe in a myth, but our enemies have responded, some at the expense of their own lives and the lives of their nations, to this very “myth.” On one level, therefore, God is very, very real because the issue still burns brightly and shapes human existence.

Speaking completely analytically, then, God does exist on some level. The “God-Concept” of the Jews is very real indeed. Even if just a myth, our God exists, even if it is just on that level. Therefore you cannot argue that the God of Abraham does not exist or is not real. There is too much empirical evidence that the “God-Concept” cannot be reduced to nothing. The concentration camps aren’t nothing. The reason Germany was once divided in half was not nothing. The fact that Israel is now a sovereign state on the land in Palestine is not “nothing.” This is very real. Your very existence has been shaped by it, even if it is only a “myth.”

Now, as a Hebrew Catholic I don’t hold God to be just a myth. I know God is something far more. I generally almost never say that I “believe” in God, however. Because of this very reasoning, it is impossible for me to reduce my convictions about God to mere static “belief.” I have moved far past that because I am not a schoolboy. I am not a child. I am a man. I can’t just “believe” in God. Gentile Christians would laugh at me, probably, if as a Jewish Christian I "just believed" like that character in The Book of Mormon musical.

Going Beyond Belief

You probably will never “believe” in God ever again because as an adult, belief is not enough. You live in a real world, with real people, in a world shaped by a real history.

And the analytical side of you will now never be able to reduce God to nothing. God is definitely not unreal because the world you live in has been shaped by issues related to worshipping the God of Abraham. If God is merely a myth, you have to admit that God is a very powerful myth. Even armies cannot destroy this “myth” or the people who worship him. It is illogical to accept that there is no God. You cannot live in this world and merely say that because the world itself doesn’t hold that to be true.

You have a thinking mind so that you may use it to encounter God. God is more than invisible and unknowable. God is also all around you in creation. God is in the people you meet, the ones you even least suspect, and in things you can touch and feel. You don’t even have to go very far to look.

I can’t give you evidence or even ensure that this will answer all your misgivings, but now you can’t argue that God is not real.

And to believe that something that is real does not exist is not logical.

 

[codesmith]

Hello again. Thanks to all of you who replied to my initial questions on this thread.

I guess I and other agnostics are too afflicted by our own want (or arrogance if you prefer) for personal evidence, and question why others are so privileged to have seen miracles/signs first hand, but not us. I guess I am just a “confirmed” doubting Thomas.

Others get to see Eucharistic miracles – bleeding hosts, hosts levitating, etc. Then there are the personal visions of others, such as Catherine LaBoure’s detailed visit with the Virgin Mary. And other assorted Marian apparitions – everything from Fatima to weeping and bleeding statues. And claims of rosaries changing colors. And then there are the stories of stigmata and saints (during their time on earth) levitating and even flying around the basilica (Joseph of Cupertino). Even Padre Pio bi-locating.

Now consider demonic possession stories down through history. And Gabriel Amorth’s (who passed away recently) books. And Paul Thigpen’s (of TAN Books) recent book “Manual for Spiritual Warfare”, where he too states that the devil can possess people and otherwise physically intervene (move objects and otherwise terrorize/haunt) people and places.

Now supposedly, prior to an exorcism, medical professionals must rule out physical and neurological problems. So where are the videos (form the medical profession) of someone so violently possessed that modern medicine was at a complete loss for an explanation? BTW, I don’t buy into the possession videos on youtube. I think a real video of true possession (a case that confounded and in fact terrified medical professionals) would cause the conversion of more than a few skeptics. Or is the devil so subtle he does not want that? If so, how do we really know possession is real?

But assuming all the above is true, why does God grant such evidence only to a very small fraction of the earth’s population over time? And generally only to those who already believe (as far as I can tell)?

Meanwhile, the skeptic sees endless natural disasters, disease, sickness and parasitism. For example, did you know just how many bizarre parasites exist in the biosphere? Some estimate that roughly 1/3 or more of the unique species on this planet are in fact parasitic!

amazon.com/Parasite-Rex-Bizarre-Dangerous-Creatures/dp/074320011X

To many of us, this does in fact look like the cold uncaring chaos of the godless universe advocated by Richard Dawkins and his ilk.

So given what looks like so chaotic and godless a world to some of us (who have doubts just like the priests described in some Eucharistic miracle descriptions), is it too much to hope for some clearer evidence that would help us? I fully get that the God of monotheism is OUTSIDE of, and created, the universe. Therefore He is NOT to be studied/sought as if He were a physical entity or phenomenon IN the universe. Nevertheless, He does appear to dole out miracles/evidence occasionally to the privileged few.

I know that sounds harsh and arrogant. But so many atheists and agnostics I know feel the same way.

 

[JuanFlorencio]

Hello again. Thanks to all of you who replied to my initial questions on this thread.

I guess I and other agnostics are too afflicted by our own want (or arrogance if you prefer) for personal evidence, and question why others are so privileged to have seen miracles/signs first hand, but not us. I guess I am just a “confirmed” doubting Thomas.

Others get to see Eucharistic miracles – bleeding hosts, hosts levitating, etc. Then there are the personal visions of others, such as Catherine LaBoure’s detailed visit with the Virgin Mary. And other assorted Marian apparitions – everything from Fatima to weeping and bleeding statues. And claims of rosaries changing colors. And then there are the stories of stigmata and saints (during their time on earth) levitating and even flying around the basilica (Joseph of Cupertino). Even Padre Pio bi-locating.

Now consider demonic possession stories down through history. And Gabriel Amorth’s (who passed away recently) books. And Paul Thigpen’s (of TAN Books) recent book “Manual for Spiritual Warfare”, where he too states that the devil can possess people and otherwise physically intervene (move objects and otherwise terrorize/haunt) people and places.

Now supposedly, prior to an exorcism, medical professionals must rule out physical and neurological problems. So where are the videos (form the medical profession) of someone so violently possessed that modern medicine was at a complete loss for an explanation? BTW, I don’t buy into the possession videos on youtube. I think a real video of true possession (a case that confounded and in fact terrified medical professionals) would cause the conversion of more than a few skeptics. Or is the devil so subtle he does not want that? If so, how do we really know possession is real?

But assuming all the above is true, why does God grant such evidence only to a very small fraction of the earth’s population over time? And generally only to those who already believe (as far as I can tell)?

Meanwhile, the skeptic sees endless natural disasters, disease, sickness and parasitism. For example, did you know just how many bizarre parasites exist in the biosphere? Some estimate that roughly 1/3 or more of the unique species on this planet are in fact parasitic!

amazon.com/Parasite-Rex-Bizarre-Dangerous-Creatures/dp/074320011X

To many of us, this does in fact look like the cold uncaring chaos of the godless universe advocated by Richard Dawkins and his ilk.

So given what looks like so chaotic and godless a world to some of us (who have doubts just like the priests described in some Eucharistic miracle descriptions), is it too much to hope for some clearer evidence that would help us? I fully get that the God of monotheism is OUTSIDE of, and created, the universe. Therefore He is NOT to be studied/sought as if He were a physical entity or phenomenon IN the universe. Nevertheless, He does appear to dole out miracles/evidence occasionally to the privileged few.

I know that sounds harsh and arrogant. But so many atheists and agnostics I know feel the same way.

I think your doubts are comprehensible to me.

…And what do you do concerning your moral life, CodeSmith? On which evidences does it rely?

 

[BobCatholic]

I suffer through the “Dark Night of the Senses” or at least I think I am…

Block: Knowledge.

I’m at the point in my journey where I am not satisfied with an intellectual acceptance of the faith. It makes sense to me. I see the reasoning. I see the logic.

I don’t want to go to hell because I hate the devil. I don’t want to go to heaven because I don’t know God well enough. I want to know him, to relate to him, to have a personal relationship with him.

Hence knowledge.

Block: Is it so hard to conceive God with one’s senses? Why must He hide in a midst of vague promises and invisible miracles?

I see it like this. He’s supernatural. He’s outside of the natural. That’s who he is. If you want to know him, you have to accept him for who he is. If you demand he be accessible by your senses, you’re asking him to be more natural - or more unlike himself. It is asking him to be phony and pretend to be someone you can relate to versus who he really is.

This is why I don’t demand God come and be present to me. I wish he’d talk to me, in whatever way he can, and help me understand. I don’t expect to hear an audible voice, but more something like “Yeah, this is the right way to go” kind of sense, which is not one of the 5 senses.

I want to tear Him out of my heart, but He remains a mocking reality which I cannot get rid of.

We all have a God sized hole inside us. Only he can fill it. Nothing else can.

Priest/Death: But He is silent.

Block: I cry to Him in the dark, but there seems to be no one there.

Priest/Death: Perhaps there is no one there.

And this is the Dark Night of the Senses.

I see it like this.

Imagine you’re a billionaire. But you’re alone. Everyone who finds out that you’re a billionaire immediately tries to be friends with you so they can get money from you. They don’t care about you, they care only about your money. It is like the only thing that is good about you, that they see, is your money. They don’t want to get to know you. You’re surrounded by phony people, but you want true friendship.

So you then go on a mission. You rent an average apartment, buy an average car, get some average looking clothes so you can appear to be an ordinary person. The prince, dresses like a pauper. Then hang around the local bar, nightclub, or other social gatherings, but not saying anything about your wealth. You use your middle name instead of your full name when introducing yourself. Or if you are known by initials, go by either first or last name. If someone recognizes you as the billionaire, say “yeah, I get that a lot. People think I look like him.”

Eventually this “middle class” self is meeting friends, and actually meeting people who are looking to be friends with him. Mission accomplished. There is a small circle of good friends, while the vast majority are phonies who don’t count as friends.

God did this. He was the billionaire. He came down from his mansion. He wants us to be friends with him. He came as Jesus. I can understand where he’s coming from.

But he keeps getting the phonies who want something from him. They come to him only when they need something and ignore him when everything is OK. They don’t want to get to know him, so they only get to know his gifts.

Remember, Jesus got the huge crowds of people wanting healings and miracles. But when he was crucified, he only had a small handful of people who were there by his side. Even his close friends, the 12 apostles, ran like chickens away from the scene.

So what he does is he doesn’t give you warm fuzzies as you journey toward him. He does not want you attached to the warm fuzzies so the warm fuzzies are more important to you than he is. This is where the silence comes in. The emptiness. The feeling as if he’s not there. He steps away to see if you’re really a true friend.

He wants to know: Do you want me as a friend or do you only care about what I can give you? Do you want the giver of the gifts or only the gifts?

That’s the dark night of the senses. Your chance to answer the question. “Can I be a true friend to God?”

Yes, it is hard. It is horrible. It is excruciatingly painful. It can easily take a loooooooooong time. But this is how God does things.

Don’t worry if you can’t answer the question now. Maybe you can’t be God’s true friend now. Maybe you’re not able to do so. But if you’re willing to try, God can give you the grace to do it.

Understand this is my opinion on the subject. I’m hoping I didn’t cross into heresy here.

 

[codesmith]

**“But he keeps getting the phonies who want something from him. They come to him only when they need something and ignore him when everything is OK. They don’t want to get to know him, so they only get to know his gifts.”

I understand that. I am not suggesting that everyone must experience a personal miraculous cure themselves in order to believe. And I agree that the alternative – a godless, chaotic, and pointless universe – is depressing to some (and to me, as in my opening post in this thread). Or at least many don’t want to even seriously think about it, and instead fall into what George Weigel described as “debonair nihilism”.

But Christ clearly (if you read the NT) worked miracles and some did indeed come to believe based on that. “Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven thee: or to say, Arise, and walk?” – Mathew 9:5

So IMO, and for many other agnostics and atheists, it’s about wanting to know the truth for sure and that it all did really happen, even if not to us personally. To know that the evidence can convince. But so much of these later cases (the levitating/bleeding hosts, the stigmata, the bleeding/weeping statues, the bi-location, the demonic possession, the Lourdes cures, etc.) sound too much like hokum or gullibility. And when it does sound like that (to some of us), it makes us question the Biblical accounts. Such as Christ casting demons into pigs. But if this was made obvious when Christ was walking the Earth, why not for us here and now?

 

[BobCatholic]

But Christ clearly (if you read the NT) worked miracles and some did indeed come to believe based on that. “Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven thee: or to say, Arise, and walk?” – Mathew 9:5

So IMO, and for many other agnostics and atheists, it’s about wanting to know the truth for sure and that it all did really happen, even if not to us personally. To know that the evidence can convince. But so much of these later cases (the levitating/bleeding hosts, the stigmata, the bleeding/weeping statues, the bi-location, the demonic possession, the Lourdes cures, etc.) sound too much like hokum or gullibility. And when it does sound like that (to some of us), it makes us question the Biblical accounts. Such as Christ casting demons into pigs. But if this was made obvious when Christ was walking the Earth, why not for us here and now?

That’s right, people in the NT did get a miracle and came to believe.

Many times I’ve attended healing services. Others got healed but not me or my family members. Because it didn’t happen to me does this mean I should think that it didn’t really happen to others?

When you say evidence can convince, I agree, but what kind of evidence are you looking for? Seems that personal testimony doesn’t carry any weight with you unless [insert answer].

And what is the standard for judging the evidence? (preponderance of the evidence? beyond a reasonable doubt? clear and convincing?)

 

[codesmith]

And what is the standard for judging the evidence? (preponderance of the evidence? beyond a reasonable doubt? clear and convincing?)

I think most of us can acknowledge that we are entities who have somehow come to self-awareness and other-awareness within a universe that we cannot in principle ever fully understand or explain. OK, I know someone is going to accuse me of making an absolute/objective statement there. How can any entity born within a system understand/explain the entire system? Therefore I find some of the materialist explanations for the universe (or many universes) just as unverifiable and unfalsifiable as the theistic explanations. So as the Judeo-Christian system admits, we can perhaps surmise the existence of God, but God would still have to somehow reveal himself to those “stuck” within this system.

This tradition and Catholicism in particular say that we are mind/body/soul. Both have emphasized that this tight “integration” (pardon my engineer speak) or unification of these attributes is what makes us human and in some way “in the divine image”. So my mind wants to know intellectually/philosophically, but I also have a body and emotion (I am not just analytical and I will not accept that analytical alone is enough). Therefore I also want to see Christ with my eyes and touch and feel (witness) the miracles in the present day. Was Thomas the apostle wrong to want that?

So if God is to reveal, I want/need to believe/see with mind, body, and soul. But I feel that the only way to do that is to abandon the skepticism…as Christ said, to become as a child and just believe. I am not saying there are no good intellectual arguments for theism. But there are also good arguments for agnosticism and atheism. Sure, a Christian could ask where does morality and any objective sense of right and wrong come from if there is in fact no God. Yet, any materialist answer to that will not satisfy the believer.

I think both Fulton Sheen and economist Stuart Chase said something like this: “For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.” For me that applies to both materialism and theism. I have seen friends convert to atheism and lose this angst once they truly came to accept/believe that no gods exist – they have accepted their condition/place in the universe and have decided to move on with life (like it or not). But I have also seen friends attain a similar (some would say better) peace of mind when they found faith. I am sympathetic to both sides.

 

[BobCatholic]

Sounds like you’re in a good neutral location to actually sit and evaluate both sides of the coin (atheism/theism) and evaluate the facts.

About faith: I like to think of faith as a 7th sense. You got the 5 natural senses. The 6th sense (psychic, telepathic, etc.) which is a preternatural sense, and then faith which is the 7th sense, a supernatural sense. (note: this is my unique personal opinion, but I don’t think it contradicts the Catholic faith)

Faith is the ability to know God, who he is, and how to relate to him. It senses his presence, senses his words in your heart, and also allows you to understand him.

Faith is a gift from God. Sometimes the gift is there, but unopened. Sometimes the gift is opened then goes stale from non-use. Sometimes the gift is opened and used and brings great fruit.

 

[thenobes]

Codesmith,

I don’t want to argue this with you, but I have a problem with this statement:

Sure, a Christian could ask where does morality and any objective sense of right and wrong come from if there is in fact no God. Yet, any materialist answer to that will not satisfy the believer.

My question is not where the sense of right and wrong comes from, but can one live with the fact that, if that sense does not come from a external Lawgiver, then the sense is merely an illusion, in that it cannot be shown that there is any actual real worth of any goal that is pointed to by that “sense”.

And if this is true, any resort to the use of a statement that implies a "should"ness, is actually nonsense. Which renders useless most of human discourse.

The sense would merely be for the senser to avoid pain and seek pleasure (and as a side point why would our pleasure or pain really be that important?) And so it would imply that anyone strong enough to ignore the similar “sense” of his fellow humans, with no harm to himself, would have no real reason not to ride roughshod over those “fellows”.

But somehow the sense does not allow this, does it? Or does it?

peace
steve

 

[codesmith]

My question is not where the sense of right and wrong comes from, but can one live with the fact that, if that sense does not come from a external Lawgiver, then the sense is merely an illusion, in that it cannot be shown that there is any actual real worth of any goal that is pointed to by that “sense”.

ARE there only two ways? External lawgiver or illusion?

Without the God of monotheism, are any and all attempts at a moral code foolish attempts (the “foolish attempt” itself an illusion) to somehow carry on while awash in a sea of absurdism? Camus insisted the we attempt to carry on regardless, and Nietzsche basically went mad.

Does the materialist conception of reality demand that our consciousness, and indeed our empathy and moral sense, be accepted as mere “epiphenomenal froth” resulting from neural activity? Some say yes, but some say no. Thomas Nagel being in the latter group and yet an atheist.

informationphilosopher.com/solutions/philosophers/nagelt/

amazon.com/Mind-Cosmos-Materialist-Neo-Darwinian-Conception/dp/0199919755

In my case, I refuse to believe we are mere biological automatons, or believe in a consciousness that is driven totally bottom up: physics → chemistry → biological systems → neurons → illusion of free will. And I am comfortable (well, I accept that it is the way it is) saying we do not know how it all works and that we never will. Indeed, can any entity that is a product of a system (evolved or created) ever comprehend the system and how/why it all works, including the evolution of a moral code? No, IMO.

And therefore I want to experience (put my hand in his side?) that somehow God/Christ is real and not a product of my own (or our collective) wishful thinking. Even in the old testament Job never gets an answer to suffering. God just takes him on a “tour of the cosmos” asking Job, more or less, if he could explain it all and create as much. Well, of course not. The answer is basically, “Suck it up, you cannot understand the reasons.”

So did God really speak to Job, or was that story a metaphor too? As I quoted in my initial post here, “I want knowledge. Not belief. Not surmise. But knowledge. I want God to put out His hand, show His face, speak to me.”

So faith helps quiet the ever questioning mind in either case, and you try and carry on. Camus did so as an atheist and admitting absurdity. Mother Theresa and so many other saints did so among their own deep doubts.

 

[codesmith]

Remember, Jesus got the huge crowds of people wanting healings and miracles. But when he was crucified, he only had a small handful of people who were there by his side. Even his close friends, the 12 apostles, ran like chickens away from the scene.

So what he does is he doesn’t give you warm fuzzies as you journey toward him. He does not want you attached to the warm fuzzies so the warm fuzzies are more important to you than he is. This is where the silence comes in. The emptiness. The feeling as if he’s not there. He steps away to see if you’re really a true friend.

He wants to know: Do you want me as a friend or do you only care about what I can give you? Do you want the giver of the gifts or only the gifts?

That’s the dark night of the senses. Your chance to answer the question. “Can I be a true friend to God?”

Thank you, BobCatholic. I’ve been going through this entire discussion again. Your comments have helped. I also went to reconciliation and Mass today. It’s getting better.

 

[thenobes]

ARE there only two ways? External lawgiver or illusion?

Without the God of monotheism, are any and all attempts at a moral code foolish attempts (the “foolish attempt” itself an illusion) to somehow carry on while awash in a sea of absurdism? Camus insisted the we attempt to carry on regardless, and Nietzsche basically went mad.

Does the materialist conception of reality demand that our consciousness, and indeed our empathy and moral sense, be accepted as mere “epiphenomenal froth” resulting from neural activity? Some say yes, but some say no. Thomas Nagel being in the latter group and yet an atheist.

informationphilosopher.com/solutions/philosophers/nagelt/

amazon.com/Mind-Cosmos-Materialist-Neo-Darwinian-Conception/dp/0199919755

In my case, I refuse to believe we are mere biological automatons, or believe in a consciousness that is driven totally bottom up: physics → chemistry → biological systems → neurons → illusion of free will. And I am comfortable (well, I accept that it is the way it is) saying we do not know how it all works and that we never will. Indeed, can any entity that is a product of a system (evolved or created) ever comprehend the system and how/why it all works, including the evolution of a moral code? No, IMO.

And therefore I want to experience (put my hand in his side?) that somehow God/Christ is real and not a product of my own (or our collective) wishful thinking. Even in the old testament Job never gets an answer to suffering. God just takes him on a “tour of the cosmos” asking Job, more or less, if he could explain it all and create as much. Well, of course not. The answer is basically, “Suck it up, you cannot understand the reasons.”

So did God really speak to Job, or was that story a metaphor too? As I quoted in my initial post here, "I want knowledge. Not belief. Not surmise. But knowledge. I want God to put out His hand, show His face, speak to me."

So faith helps quiet the ever questioning mind in either case, and you try and carry on. Camus did so as an atheist and admitting absurdity. Mother Theresa and so many other saints did so among their own deep doubts.

No, I believe the absurdity comes with the denial of an eternal lawgiver, call it “universal spirit”, God, or whatever. Without it, we are asserting a moral code that is basless, that is, that cannot be shown to have any basis at all, other than a material mechanism within us, and so contradicts the very idea of morality, ie, shouldness. There is no moral rule by which one mechanical outcome is superior to any other.

Else we have an eternal loop of mechanical result backed by moral shouldness based on mechanical result.

It is impossible but to accept our impulse toward morality.

The acceptance of the external lawgiver must be the first step. The necessity is to seek this lawgiver in that it is obvious there are other sources of so-called morality which seek to undermine this pure source of morality. These contradictory sources must be removed from our conscience.

peace
steve

 

[MPat]

Hello again. Thanks to all of you who replied to my initial questions on this thread.

I guess I and other agnostics are too afflicted by our own want (or arrogance if you prefer) for personal evidence, and question why others are so privileged to have seen miracles/signs first hand, but not us. I guess I am just a “confirmed” doubting Thomas.

Others get to see Eucharistic miracles – bleeding hosts, hosts levitating, etc. Then there are the personal visions of others, such as Catherine LaBoure’s detailed visit with the Virgin Mary. And other assorted Marian apparitions – everything from Fatima to weeping and bleeding statues. And claims of rosaries changing colors. And then there are the stories of stigmata and saints (during their time on earth) levitating and even flying around the basilica (Joseph of Cupertino). Even Padre Pio bi-locating.

Now consider demonic possession stories down through history. And Gabriel Amorth’s (who passed away recently) books. And Paul Thigpen’s (of TAN Books) recent book “Manual for Spiritual Warfare”, where he too states that the devil can possess people and otherwise physically intervene (move objects and otherwise terrorize/haunt) people and places.

Now supposedly, prior to an exorcism, medical professionals must rule out physical and neurological problems. So where are the videos (form the medical profession) of someone so violently possessed that modern medicine was at a complete loss for an explanation? BTW, I don’t buy into the possession videos on youtube. I think a real video of true possession (a case that confounded and in fact terrified medical professionals) would cause the conversion of more than a few skeptics. Or is the devil so subtle he does not want that? If so, how do we really know possession is real?

But assuming all the above is true, why does God grant such evidence only to a very small fraction of the earth’s population over time? And generally only to those who already believe (as far as I can tell)?

Meanwhile, the skeptic sees endless natural disasters, disease, sickness and parasitism. For example, did you know just how many bizarre parasites exist in the biosphere? Some estimate that roughly 1/3 or more of the unique species on this planet are in fact parasitic!

amazon.com/Parasite-Rex-Bizarre-Dangerous-Creatures/dp/074320011X

To many of us, this does in fact look like the cold uncaring chaos of the godless universe advocated by Richard Dawkins and his ilk.

So given what looks like so chaotic and godless a world to some of us (who have doubts just like the priests described in some Eucharistic miracle descriptions), is it too much to hope for some clearer evidence that would help us? I fully get that the God of monotheism is OUTSIDE of, and created, the universe. Therefore He is NOT to be studied/sought as if He were a physical entity or phenomenon IN the universe. Nevertheless, He does appear to dole out miracles/evidence occasionally to the privileged few.

I know that sounds harsh and arrogant. But so many atheists and agnostics I know feel the same way.

You know, in order to answer a question about reasons for someone’s actions, we have to find out something about the goals.

So, what are God’s goals? Atheists often seem to assume that the main goal God has is to persuade them that He exists. But is it? Church teaches that God wants to lead us to Heaven. And that there are some constraints. For example, He is perfectly just and we do a lot to deserve Hell and not Heaven.

So, it looks like we need to pass some tests in order to give God an “excuse” to let us into Heaven. What if believing without seeing (but not without evidence) is one of such tests? Perhaps all those diseases and natural disasters create opportunities for such tests as well?

Now, if believing without seeing is a test, a spectacular miracle would spoil that test. Yet if someone has already passed that test, a miracle won’t spoil anything.

That explanation does seem to fit the evidence doesn’t it?

BTW, I don’t buy into the possession videos on youtube. I think a real video of true possession (a case that confounded and in fact terrified medical professionals) would cause the conversion of more than a few skeptics.

Not if those sceptics also think in the same way.

Also, there are also “sceptics” who refuse to believe that 0.999…=1, even if there are many simple proofs of that - they just refuse to trust those proofs without seeing.

Does the materialist conception of reality demand that our consciousness, and indeed our empathy and moral sense, be accepted as mere “epiphenomenal froth” resulting from neural activity? Some say yes, but some say no. Thomas Nagel being in the latter group and yet an atheist.

Yet is he a materialist? At least Edward Feser seems to think otherwise (edwardfeser.blogspot.lt/2012/10/nagel-and-his-critics-part-i.html)…

Thank you, BobCatholic. I’ve been going through this entire discussion again. Your comments have helped. I also went to reconciliation and Mass today. It’s getting better.

Now that is the right approach!

 

[JoeFreedom]

**“But he keeps getting the phonies who want something from him. They come to him only when they need something and ignore him when everything is OK. They don’t want to get to know him, so they only get to know his gifts.”

I understand that. I am not suggesting that everyone must experience a personal miraculous cure themselves in order to believe. And I agree that the alternative – a godless, chaotic, and pointless universe – is depressing to some (and to me, as in my opening post in this thread). Or at least many don’t want to even seriously think about it, and instead fall into what George Weigel described as “debonair nihilism”.

But Christ clearly (if you read the NT) worked miracles and some did indeed come to believe based on that. “Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven thee: or to say, Arise, and walk?” – Mathew 9:5

So IMO, and for many other agnostics and atheists, it’s about wanting to know the truth for sure and that it all did really happen, even if not to us personally. To know that the evidence can convince. But so much of these later cases (the levitating/bleeding hosts, the stigmata, the bleeding/weeping statues, the bi-location, the demonic possession, the Lourdes cures, etc.) sound too much like hokum or gullibility. And when it does sound like that (to some of us), it makes us question the Biblical accounts. Such as Christ casting demons into pigs. But if this was made obvious when Christ was walking the Earth, why not for us here and now?

This thread is very interesting. I’ll offer my two cents. Really, it’s about all it’s worth

Most of us don’t get to see all the miracles that the few “lucky” ones get to see, but at the same time, many people in the NT that DID see miracles, or did encounter Jesus, flat-out rejected Him and wanted nothing to do with Him, even seeing the Son of Man in the flesh do miraculous things. The way of Christ is not an easy one, not by a long shot, and oh boy do I fall short every day. Knowing what Christ demands of us makes living that kind of life difficult in this fallen world and to accept may mean persecution, ridicule, but definitely means denouncing sinfulness (no lying, adultery, pornography, drunkedness, cheating, gossiping, etc.), and requires us to live by certain “higher” standards. Many of these things we look at and say, nah, I’d rather just continue to live without the demands. That is the rejection of God. I have had other atheists tell me that if God Himself came down to earth and stood before them and tell them that He is God, then they’d believe. But I doubt their claim, since God already did that. Just look at the Pharisees.

Listen, I think even many Catholics question the existence of God at times. I know I have. I don’t think it’s a bad thing altogether. How do we come to a more fuller understanding if we just accept blindly? What you are doing right now is struggling to find the right “spot” with God, and that takes time. Keep asking questions, but be open to the answers. I think what BobCatholic wrote in his analogy of the billionaire was brilliant. We can’t know God overnight. Get to be His friend. Ask Him questions. Spend time in prayer, even if you think you can’t do it or feel silly at doing it. God doesn’t care how you come to Him, just that you find Him.

I’ll say a prayer that you keep on your journey and that God grants you the grace to find Him.

 

[BobCatholic]

Thank you, BobCatholic. I’ve been going through this entire discussion again. Your comments have helped. I also went to reconciliation and Mass today. It’s getting better.

You’re welcome. My dark night of the senses (I hope it is one!) is really horrific, so it is painful.

But I want to know and love God. It is hard. I want to be a true friend to him, but it is hard. Harder than I can do alone.

I know God exists, that part is proven to me beyond the shadow of a doubt. But WHO God is I can’t answer. I don’t know.