The Shroud of Turin is the Greatest Gift given to Mankind

[Righteousone]

The Shroud of Turin is the real and actual burial cloth of Jesus Christ. Many have declared it authentic. Some (and there are always skeptics) do not.
Many scientists have declared it authentic but need to hide their feelings and have to keep up their public agnostic stance for the sake of their “scientific credibility”. For example a man of the Jewish faith, Barrie Schwortz has said, quote " The image on the Shroud matches the account of the crucifixtion in the New Testament down to the 'nth degree. Evidence is mounting that the Gospels are quite accurate. This may cause consternation among my family, and other Jewish people, but in my own mind, the Shroud is the piece of cloth which wrapped Jesus after He was crucified".
Someone asked all forty scientists at a conference for the Shroud a question which was “All who believe this is the authentic Shroud of Christ, raise your hands”. Forty pairs of eyes just stared at him.
"OK, he then said “All those who don’t believe it is authentic raise your hands”. Forty of them still sat still, no one moved.
What is even more incredible is that ancient pollen taken from the Shroud by professor Max Frei discovered Pilate’s coins that were placed on the eyelids of Christ and are visible on the shroud—both recording the age of the Shroud to be almost 2,000 years old.

 

[Valke2]

Many scientists have declared it authentic but need to hide their feelings and have to keep up their public agnostic stance for the sake of their “scientific credibility”.

Did they declare it or are they hiding their feelilngs? Which is it?

For example a man of the Jewish faith, Barrie Schwortz has said, quote " The image on the Shroud matches the account of the crucifixtion in the New Testament down to the 'nth degree.

Barry Schwortz’ own website doesn’t seem to say yea or nay.
He is mainly a photographer, not a scientest. He is also the editor of the “Rocky and Bullwinkle” video collection. But whether he believes it or not isn’t exactly compellng evidence one way or the other. He also seems to have a financial interest in promoting the shroud as the real thing.

Dr Rodger Sparks is a sceptic. The leader of the Rafter Radiocarbon Laboratory at the Institute of Geological and Nuclear Science in Lower Hutt, Sparks is an expert on radiocarbon and supports the conclusion that the cloth was a medieval creation.

"What fascinates me about the shroud [is] the variety and ingenuity of some of the explanations to explain away the radiocarbon data. You have a whole list and you can choose the one which suits your particular temperament. "

 

[Righteousone]

Er…I thought you would comment on this Valke, so I am prepared for your doubting the authencity of this Shroud.
Your so called ‘evidence’ suggests that there was a considerable lack of professionalism in the testing process and raises doubts about the validity of the results. These new works present us with mocking and dishonest scientists with samples of the shroud which in the research laboratories weighed twice what they weighed when they were cut from the Shroud, with evidence that Carbon-14 tests can be anything but trustworthy.
The arguement that the hypothesis of an anti-Catholic conspiracy–an accusation made by the diector of the Vatican Press Office following the publication of the dating result–now must be viewed with greater attention. ‘there are those who speak of a jewish-masonic conspiracy’, they write. The Vatican has opened up to see if this has any basis of fact.
The Carbon-14 is a fraud. These new developments were given almost no coverage in the secular and Catholic Modernist Press.
The ‘STURP’ team after careful analysis established the fact that the blood stains on the Shroud are that of human blood.

 

[Righteousone]

Did they declare it or are they hiding their feelilngs? Which is it?

Barry Schwortz’ own website doesn’t seem to say yea or nay.
He is mainly a photographer, not a scientest. He is also the editor of the “Rocky and Bullwinkle” video collection. But whether he believes it or not isn’t exactly compellng evidence one way or the other. He also seems to have a financial interest in promoting the shroud as the real thing.

Dr Rodger Sparks is a sceptic. The leader of the Rafter Radiocarbon Laboratory at the Institute of Geological and Nuclear Science in Lower Hutt, Sparks is an expert on radiocarbon and supports the conclusion that the cloth was a medieval creation.

"What fascinates me about the shroud [is] the variety and ingenuity of some of the explanations to explain away the radiocarbon data. You have a whole list and you can choose the one which suits your particular temperament. "

Barry Schwortz is a scientist and a brilliant one. He was a member of the STURP team. Can’t get around that one Valke. No discredits here please…and it was proven the Shroud is not dated back to the medevil days but to 2,000 years ago.

 

[Valke2]

Er…I thought you would comment on this Valke, so I am prepared for your doubting the authencity of this Shroud.
Your so called ‘evidence’ suggests that there was a considerable lack of professionalism in the testing process and raises doubts about the validity of the results. These new works present us with mocking and dishonest scientists with samples of the shroud which in the research laboratories weighed twice what they weighed when they were cut from the Shroud, with evidence that Carbon-14 tests can be anything but trustworthy.
The arguement that the hypothesis of an anti-Catholic conspiracy–an accusation made by the diector of the Vatican Press Office following the publication of the dating result–now must be viewed with greater attention. ‘there are those who speak of a jewish-masonic conspiracy’, they write. The Vatican has opened up to see if this has any basis of fact.
The Carbon-14 is a fraud. These new developments were given almost no coverage in the secular and Catholic Modernist Press.
The ‘STURP’ team after careful analysis established the fact that the blood stains on the Shroud are that of human blood.

whatever. If the Vatican allows a new sample, I guess we’ll have more evidence. Until then, it is more of the same old same old. I’m not sure where you got the idea I was aruging for an anti-Catholic conspiracy. Since I don’t dispute the fact that Jesus lived, it wouldn’t matter to me one way or the other if the shroud was authentic. Enjoy your relics and wake me up when there’s new carbon testing.

 

[rossum]

Barrie Schwortz has said, quote " The image on the Shroud matches the account of the crucifixtion in the New Testament down to the 'nth degree.

This is not good evidence. If I wanted to forge such an item then I would meke very sure that it did match to the n’th degree. Part of the skill of a forger is in getting as good a match as possible and any forger could have been expected to know the contents of the New Testament. Both a genuine shroud and a forgery could reasonably be expected to match the NT accounts.

rossum

 

[Valke2]

Barry Schwortz is a scientist and a brilliant one. He was a member of the STURP team. Can’t get around that one Valke. No discredits here please…and it was proven the Shroud is not dated back to the medevil days but to 2,000 years ago.

he’s a photographer. He says this on his website. And it is not proven that the Shroud dates back to 2,000 years. Besides, I thought your whole beef was the with STRUP team’s inaccuracies?

 

[Righteousone]

This is not good evidence. If I wanted to forge such an item then I would meke very sure that it did match to the n’th degree. Part of the skill of a forger is in getting as good a match as possible and any forger could have been expected to know the contents of the New Testament. Both a genuine shroud and a forgery could reasonably be expected to match the NT accounts.

rossum

No disrespect here, but you are a Buddhist and Buddha did not die for our sins. Mohammed did not die for our sins. Jesus died for our sins. I don’t expect non-Catholics here to believe anything, especially ones that don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah.

 

[Valke2]

This is not good evidence. If I wanted to forge such an item then I would meke very sure that it did match to the n’th degree. Part of the skill of a forger is in getting as good a match as possible and any forger could have been expected to know the contents of the New Testament. Both a genuine shroud and a forgery could reasonably be expected to match the NT accounts.

rossum

Besides, what does such a statement even mean? What descriptions of the crucifixion is he talking about? Is there a description of what Jesus looked like?

 

[Claire_from_DE]

If it was proven the shroud was the burial cloth that would be great. Why didn’t the scientists raise their hands? It’s not proven yet. Interesting to discuss but only peripheral to our faith.

 

[Valke2]

No disrespect here, but you are a Buddhist and Buddha did not die for our sins. Mohammed did not die for our sins. Jesus died for our sins. I don’t expect non-Catholics here to believe anything, especially ones that don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah.

So what is the point of your OP? I thought it was to show how the Shroud is absolutely the real deal. If you are only looking for people to agree with you, go post on the Trad. Catholic threads.

 

[Righteousone]

he’s a photographer. He says this on his website. And it is not proven that the Shroud dates back to 2,000 years. Besides, I thought your whole beef was the with STRUP team’s inaccuracies?

Valke, he is a scientist. You have the wrong one. But for arguements sake, if he was a photographer, he was still there and said what he had to say. I am sure he witnessed a lot of things to come to that conclusion.

Another example: On the Shroud there are images of flower and pollen samples that appear are those of plant species that grow in the area of Jerusalem, says an Israeli botanist. He says “The assemblage of plants…shows the Shroud could only come from the Middle East, and the best fit in Jerusalem”, said Hebrew University Professor Avinoam Danin, an expert on the flora of the Holy Land.
Some 96% of the 28 flower species identified on the Shroud grow between Jerusalem and the Qumran Caves. Add the southern Dead Sea area to the equation and 100% of the species can found, said Danin.
These flower images on the Shroud were obviously much more visible in the earlier centuries of the Shroud’s existence, since they have been accurately copied in a number of early iconographic and other artistic depictions of Christ in many media including Byzantine coins between the third and tenth centuries.
The conclusion of the carbon dating studies of 1988 that the shroud is of medevil origin (13th-14th century) is anomalous and erroneous, and that the Shroud’s origin is Israel in the first century.

 

[Righteousone]

So what is the point of your OP? I thought it was to show how the Shroud is absolutely the real deal. If you are only looking for people to agree with you, go post on the Trad. Catholic threads.

This is not about people agreeing with me, it is to tell people the gift that was given to us…mainly the Shroud.

 

[Righteousone]

If it was proven the shroud was the burial cloth that would be great. Why didn’t the scientists raise their hands? It’s not proven yet. Interesting to discuss but only peripheral to our faith.

Did you not read my post correctly?? They neither raised their hands to see if it wasn’t OR WAS the Shroud. In other words, their conclusion was THEY DIDN’T KNOW.

 

[BibleSteve]

What did Peter find when he entered the tomb? The eyewitness John reported: “He viewed the bandages lying, also the cloth that had been upon his head not lying with the bandages but separately rolled up in one place.” (John 20:6,*7) Notice that there is no mention of the fine linen—only of bandages and the headcloth. Since John specifies the bandages and the headcloth, would it not seem likely that he would have mentioned the fine linen, or shroud, if it had been there?

In addition, consider this: If the graveclothes of Jesus had his image upon them, does it not seem that it would have been noticed and would have become a subject for discussion? Yet, beyond what is in the Gospels, there is complete silence in the Bible about the graveclothes.

Even the professed Christian writers of the third and fourth centuries, many of whom wrote about a host of so-called miracles in connection with numerous relics, did not mention the existence of a shroud containing the image of Jesus. This is hard to understand, since 15th- and 16th-century viewers, according to Jesuit scholar Herbert Thurston, “describe the impressions on the shroud as so vivid in detail and colouring that they might have been quite freshly made.”

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Just a clarification on the title of this thread:

**Jesus in the Eucharist is the greatest gift God ever gave us. The Eucharist is the source, center and summit of the Church’s (and our) life. **

 

[ibkc]

This is not good evidence. If I wanted to forge such an item then I would meke very sure that it did match to the n’th degree. Part of the skill of a forger is in getting as good a match as possible and any forger could have been expected to know the contents of the New Testament. Both a genuine shroud and a forgery could reasonably be expected to match the NT accounts.

The interesting thing about the Shroud is that there are things about it that aren’t necessarily in the New Testament, but which are consistent with what we know now about the time and place where Christ was crucified. However, these are not things that a forger in medieval times could know. For instance, all artistic representations of the Crucifixion show Christ nailed up through the palms of his hands. The image on the Shroud has bloodstains on the victim’s wrist, not his hands, which is consistent with reality: if you hang a body up nailed through the palms, the arms will come out of their sockets. However a body nailed up through the wrist will hang supported. This is but one example of something a forger who had never actually seen a real crucifixion could not have known about.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

I think it is interesting to realise that the image we are accustomed to seeing is actually the negative of the real image.

It’s intriguing to know that, when the shroud was discovered, photography wouldn’t be invented for centuries to come.

Some say it is impossible for us to create a negative image without photography; It’s like signing our names back-to-front and upside-down. Our brains are not trained for it.

So, if the shroud is a fake, it begs the question; Who was the brilliant artist, probably the best the world has ever had? It’s a mystery to not know their name.

 

[BibleSteve]

Church Says Shroud of Turin Isn’t Authentic

New York Times, October 14, 1988

“The Roman Catholic Church announced today that the Shroud of Turin, venerated by millions of Christians over the centuries as the burial cloth of Jesus, could not be authentic because new scientific tests show that the linen dates from the Middle Ages.”

"Cardinal Ballestrero said that when Pope John Paul II was informed of the results, his response was, ‘‘Publish it.’’ "

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hello,

Just a clarification on the title of this thread:

**Jesus in the Eucharist is the greatest gift God ever gave us. The Eucharist is the source, center and summit of the Church’s (and our) life. **

You are correct. I think the Shroud comes second. I have done my own research on the Shroud by watching Fabric of Time and Space. It shows both evidence to prove the shroud is from the 1st Century. I do believe this burial cloth capture the event of the resurrection.