The Shroud of Turin is the Greatest Gift given to Mankind

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Righteousone said:
Valke, for your information, the man Barry Schwortz has a website dedicated to the Holy Shroud which is www.shroud.com which was opened up by Schwortz himself who is a former STRUP member. it has already been hit 86,000 times on the internet.
The Whangers who are a couple who study the Shroud have found the phrase “OF NAZARETH”, thus confirming in one fell swoop, the authenticity of the title, the authenticity of the Shroud, and the historicicity of the Gospel of St. John.
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Yes. I had already been to his website. That is where I learned he photographed the original STRUP examination. From his website: “My name is Barrie M. Schwortz, and I am your host. As the Official Documenting Photographer for the Shroud of Turin Research Project, Inc., (STURP), I was privileged to be a member of the team that completed the first extensive scientific examination of the Shroud of Turin in 1978. Between October 8 and October 14, 1978, our team spent 120 hours with the Shroud of Turin.”

He does not refer to himself as a scientist, I don’t see any Dr. before his name or Phd after it. And, btw, he actually did produce the Rocky & Bullwinkle video collection. It is in his bio.

How on earth can the “Whangers” finding “of nazareth” resolve anything???
 
Valke2 said:
Yes. I had already been to his website. That is where I learned he photographed the original STRUP examination. How on earth can the “Whangers” finding “of nazareth” resolve anything???
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Because the book that just came out which was long awaited titled "The shroud of turin: an adventure of discovery, by Dr. Alan and Mrs. Mary Whanger, presenting their 21 years of research on the Shroud, finally came out last spring.
 
Valke2 said:
Yes. I had already been to his website. That is where I learned he photographed the original STRUP examination. From his website: “My name is Barrie M. Schwortz, and I am your host. As the Official Documenting Photographer for the Shroud of Turin Research Project, Inc., (STURP), I was privileged to be a member of the team that completed the first extensive scientific examination of the Shroud of Turin in 1978. Between October 8 and October 14, 1978, our team spent 120 hours with the Shroud of Turin.”

He does not refer to himself as a scientist, I don’t see any Dr. before his name or Phd after it.

How on earth can the “Whangers” finding “of nazareth” resolve anything???
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But you faill to read on the 2700 pictures he had taken over four years with the STRUP team. You fail to mention he is an Orthodox Jew who believes the Shroud is authentic.
 
Righteousone said:
Because the book that just came out which was long awaited titled "The shroud of turin: an adventure of discovery, by Dr. Alan and Mrs. Mary Whanger, presenting their 21 years of research on the Shroud, finally came out last spring.
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and they found that the miraculous shroud not only had the authentic face of Jesus, but it came with its own caption? (and there are reviews of this book from 2004, so it has probably been out for about 4 years).
 
Righteousone said:
The greatest gift IN THIS CENTURY…geez…you people take things so literal here…🤷
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👍 'Onya, Righteousone!

This thread is a good idea to get the non-christians thinking about the crucifixion. I thought you were being treated harshly. Now, hopefully we can get back on track.

Did anybody notice that the shroud is a perfect negative image (see post # 18)? I thought that was interesting and would like see some arguments against it.
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
👍 'Onya, Righteousone!
This thread is a good idea to get the non-christians thinking about the crucifixion. I thought you were being treated harshly. Now, hopefully we can get back on track.
Did anybody notice that the shroud is a perfect negative image (see post # 18)? I thought that was interesting and would like see some arguments against it.
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Hi

I see that perhaps we have photographs of two ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH, both uncanonical, one Jesus and the other of the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908.

Is the Shroud of Turin a genuine one undoubtedly?

Thanks
 
Righteousone said:
But you faill to read on the 2700 pictures he had taken over four years with the STRUP team. You fail to mention he is an Orthodox Jew who believes the Shroud is authentic.
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Yes he took a lot of pictures and he’s a jew. I think that given all the evidence that you have presented, the issue remains in doubt.
 
Re the pilate coins: Barrie Schwortz, a technical photographers who photographed the Shroud, disagrees. Having studied numerous high quality negatives of the Shroud taken in 1978, he concludes:

My personal opinion, based on my photographic experience and my close examination of the Shroud itself, is that the weave of the cloth is far too coarse to resolve the rather subtle and very tiny inscription on a dime sized ancient coin…What he (Filas) saw as inscriptions, I saw as random shapes and noise. Such is the subjective nature of image analysis. For these reasons however, I cannot accept these coin “inscriptions” as viable evidence of a first century Shroud “date”…
shroudstory.com/faq-coins.htm

It goes on to say that the Whagner’s make a strong case for the pilate coins.
 
Righteousone said:
It is not a forgery…what don’t you understand here? Are you reading my threads?
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I am saying nothing as to whether it is a forgery or not. All I am saying is that your point that it matches the NT accounts would be true for either the real shroud or a reasonably competent forgery. Hence that particular point is not useful in deciding whether the Shroud is or is not a forgery.

rossum
 
Valke2 said:
Re the pilate coins: Barrie Schwortz, a technical photographers who photographed the Shroud, disagrees. Having studied numerous high quality negatives of the Shroud taken in 1978, he concludes:

My personal opinion, based on my photographic experience and my close examination of the Shroud itself, is that the weave of the cloth is far too coarse to resolve the rather subtle and very tiny inscription on a dime sized ancient coin…What he (Filas) saw as inscriptions, I saw as random shapes and noise. Such is the subjective nature of image analysis. For these reasons however, I cannot accept these coin “inscriptions” as viable evidence of a first century Shroud “date”…
shroudstory.com/faq-coins.htm

It goes on to say that the Whagner’s make a strong case for the pilate coins.
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Barrie Schwortz just has doubts about the coins, after all, he himself has dedicated a whole website on the authencity of the Shroud himself. Then there are those who can prove the coins are authentic.
Michael Marx, an expert in classical coins (Schwortz is not an expert in coins), examined the area over the right eye and detected patterns of what appeared to be the letters UCAI (from Tiberius Caesar). They also found a litius design (an augers staff). This coin was minted by Pontius Pilate between 29 and 32 CE.
Over the left eye is to be a juolia leptor with a distinctive sheaf of barley design. This was struck in 29 CE in honor of Tiberius Caesar’s wife, Julia.

There will be sceptics here, only because they do not want to believe in Jesus Christ, that the cloth is indeed authentic, since noone can prove after years of scientific study that it isn’t, just to find it says “Of Nazareth” on the cloth, etc…etc…is proof enough for me.
It is the burial cloth of Christ. He has given this to us so that we can have hope. That we can actually look into his face and no that we must have faith. Faith in a world with secularism and the tired old worn out **** who demeans Christ as well as his mother.
 
Righteousone said:
Barrie Schwortz just has doubts about the coins, after all, he himself has dedicated a whole website on the authencity of the Shroud himself. Then there are those who can prove the coins are authentic.
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If they were proven authentic, I imagine Schwortz’ doubts would be long since settled.
There will be sceptics here, only because they do not want to believe in Jesus Christ, that the cloth is indeed authentic, since noone can prove after years of scientific study that it isn’t, just to find it says “Of Nazareth” on the cloth, etc…etc…is proof enough for me.
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You have extraordinarily low standards of proof indeed if the lack of proof for a negative statement becomes proof of its contradiction.
 
Mirdath said:
If they were proven authentic, I imagine Schwortz’ doubts would be long since settled.

You have extraordinarily low standards of proof indeed if the lack of proof for a negative statement becomes proof of its contradiction.
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Reread the posts agnostic…🤷
 
rossum said:
I am saying nothing as to whether it is a forgery or not.
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If the Shroud really is a 14th century medieval forgery, then how hard could it be to produce either (a) a near-identical forgery using 14th century medieval-era techniques, or for that matter (b) a near-identical forgery using modern 21st century techniques?

Recall that the Shroud image was unexpectedly found to have the property of decoding into a 3-D image. Also, during restoration in 2002, the back of the cloth was photographed and scanned for the first time – and found to contain an image much fainter than that on the front, consisting primarily of the face and perhaps the hands. So, it stands to reason that any forgery produced today (whether by medieval-era or modern techniques) would also have to nearly-identically exhibit any/all properties that the real Shroud may be found to posess in the future.

Anyone up for that challenge? 🙂
 
Erich said:
If the Shroud really is a 14th century medieval forgery, then how hard could it be to produce either (a) a near-identical forgery using 14th century medieval-era techniques, or for that matter (b) a near-identical forgery using modern 21st century techniques?
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Not that hard. I have read that this has been done. I believe by someone in France.
 
Without reading this whole thread, let me start by saying JESUS CHRIST is the greatest gift given mankind. I personally believe that the Shroud is the real deal, but my faith does not rest on it. There are persuasive arguements both pro and con as to it’s authenticity. Even if proven to be as old as it would need to be if it is the Shroud of Christ…there’s no way to CONCLUSIVELY PROVE it’s the shroud of Christ…unless God tells us himself.
 
I shouldn’t have said it would not be that hard to duplicate. I have no idea how hard it would be.
 
Valke2 said:
I shouldn’t have said it would not be that hard to duplicate. I have no idea how hard it would be.
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So far, it’s been IMPOSSIBLE to duplicate using even modern technology, much less that of the suppossed 13th century forger.
 
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