The Shroud of Turin is the Greatest Gift given to Mankind

[paarsurrey]

May I put in my two bits? There was an exhibit centered on the Shroud in my area. As a person trained as an artist, I was interested on observing it to find out how I might as an artist have created a forgery of this relic. After studying the associated scientific information, I came to just a few of the conclusions that impressed me and made me realize that no medival forger could have created this image.
First, whoever would have forged it at anytime before the 19th century would not have known that Christ was pierced through the wrists, instead of the hands. Second, the imprint within and upon the flax can’t be done by staining, painting, or even heating a metal sculptural image and placing the cloth over it, but only through some sort of radation technique, which didn’t exist prior to the 20th century. Third, naturally the reverse image discovered in the 19th century could not have been done before the time of photography when reverse imaging was developed. Fourth, a forger of this one’s virtuosity would have wanted to portray Christ’s crown of thorns puncture wounds but didn’t. Why? Because this “forger” buried them so that it was only possible to discovery them on the latest scientific examination of the skull area. Moreover, the crown of thorns blood stains on the shroud do not form a ring as all artist throughout the ages would have depicted, but instead form a skull cap which would have been the most logical form to maintain the crown’s position on the head but the most illogical action for a forger to commit to convince a gullible audience. Besides this would have been a waste of his valuable time.to hide the marks.
So in conclusion, though my faith does not rest on the Shroud, I can’t believe that a gifted forger could have been the author of this masterpiece, and instead find that it only deepens my faith.

Hi

Please answer my question in post # 79:

I know as you have stated that the image/photograph is three dimensional. Can you tell us if it is coloured as well. If so; could you please tell us features of Jesus from the shroud with accuracy? Colour of his eyes etc.

Thanks

 

[swariffin]

The Shroud of Turin is the real and actual burial cloth of Jesus Christ. Many have declared it authentic. Some (and there are always skeptics) do not.
Many scientists have declared it authentic but need to hide their feelings and have to keep up their public agnostic stance for the sake of their “scientific credibility”. For example a man of the Jewish faith, Barrie Schwortz has said, quote " The image on the Shroud matches the account of the crucifixtion in the New Testament down to the 'nth degree. Evidence is mounting that the Gospels are quite accurate. This may cause consternation among my family, and other Jewish people, but in my own mind, the Shroud is the piece of cloth which wrapped Jesus after He was crucified".
Someone asked all forty scientists at a conference for the Shroud a question which was “All who believe this is the authentic Shroud of Christ, raise your hands”. Forty pairs of eyes just stared at him.
"OK, he then said “All those who don’t believe it is authentic raise your hands”. Forty of them still sat still, no one moved.
What is even more incredible is that ancient pollen taken from the Shroud by professor Max Frei discovered Pilate’s coins that were placed on the eyelids of Christ and are visible on the shroud—both recording the age of the Shroud to be almost 2,000 years old.

Dear Righteousness,

You opened an interesting thread. I know that there are many believers of the Shroud of Turin (SoT), and also so many who are not. The main point is, our believe is not depend of that (SoT). So, whether the SoT is authentic or not, will have no effect to Christianity.

 

[Thing]

Hi

I know as you have stated that the image/photograph is three dimensional. Can you tell us if it is coloured as well. If so; could you please tell us features of Jesus from the shroud with accuracy? Colour of his eyes etc.

Thanks

Hi,
The image is not a photograph in a conventional sense. Early colour photographs, 1870’s, used sensitising dyes. In the 1930’s kodak invented Kodachrome based on photosensitive emulsions.

The image on the shroud is formed on the cellulose structure of the flax itself, which makes the linen.
There are no pigments, dyes or photosensitive emulsions on the shroud, chemical photographs themselves are unstable and would probably not survive 2000 years.
The image is not coloured, it has the colour of oxidized flax - a light straw colour. The colour of the mans eyes could not be known, not least because his eyes appear to be closed and had coins on them.

Below is an accurate image possible because of the three dimensional nature of the images formation:



The weave density of linen cloth is an average of a little over thirty-five threads per centimeter.
Linen threads are comprised of hundreds of fibres in maybe a 2 mm thread diameter.
Linen fibres contain fibrils which have an average 12-16 micrometers in diameter.
Fibrils are 15 microns or 15/1000 of a milimeter in diameter…
Sable hairs, one of the finest hairs used in water colour brushes are 0.15 mm.
A paint brush works by capillary action between the hairs of the brush. So at least several hairs would be needed to make a brush work.
Sable hair is 100 times the diameter of a linen fibril.
The image on the shroud is formed by some process of oxidization of the cellulose on the surface of the linen fibrils.
Only the surface of the linen fibril was oxidized.
Not possible to paint an oxidizing liquid onto the surface of the fibrils.

In any event, a liquid applied to the linen thread would immediately soak into the cloth by the same capillary action resulting in all the fibrils throughout the thread being oxidized all over their surfaces.
Wherever a fibre crosses an underlying one the underlying fibre is unaffected.
The colour change never affects more than one or two fibrils in depth, so that whatever caused the change can only have had very little depth of penetration. There are no obvious differences in the straw-yellow shade. It is merely the number of fibrils coloured that determine the intensity of the image.
Another observation of considerable significance is that when blood was, or had been, present over the fibres, it also protected the underlying fibres from whatever caused the image. This means that the blood must have been in place before the image was formed.

“One thing we can say is that the illumination for the formation of the image would seem to have come from the body. It had a limited range and was non- directional. The closer the material was to the surface of the body, the stronger the image. At a distance greater than about 2 inches or 4 centimetres, no image was produced. That is the range in air of alpha particles, mesons, and other products of nuclear disintegration. Further, these are particles whose range in solids is very small. If nuclear disintegration was the source of the illumination, then all the observations - including those recorded in the Gospels - would fall into place.”

“If the image on the Shroud was caused by a nuclear disintegration of the atoms in the body, we can say that the image was primarily due to the short range particles, and that any changes that took place in the main part of the Shroud were due to neutrons and gamma radiation.
In the areas affected by the high-energy short-range particles the effect was quite different. With molecular chains shortened and ordered regions disrupted, the mechanical strength would be greatly reduced - that is, the material would become friable, something that Dr. Adler and Dr. Heller observed.
Suggest a very high radiation dose, more than 120,000 Mrad and less than 680,000 Mrad, but probably nearer the latter.
The appearance of the image and the properties of the linen of the Shroud can thus be explained if the cause was the nuclear disintegration of the atoms in the body. With such a disintegration - a minor nuclear explosion - light and energy would also be produced. In the body the main elements involved would be carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen, together with smaller quantities of calcium, phosphorus and sulphur. These all have lower molecular weights, and a lower proportion of internal energy, so that the energy liberated would be far less than that from the disintegration of the heavy atoms in nuclear weapons. It would still be sufficient to move the stone at the entrance to the tomb, and to make the guards think that there had been an earthquake.
An instantaneous disintegration of the nuclei of the atoms in the body would account for the formation of the image, detail by detail, and the good state of preservation of the linen of the Shroud. It would seem to be the only mechanism whereby the straw-yellow colour could be produced - and the lemon-yellow colour of the serum deposits. It would have to be instantaneous to account for the well-defined image, in terms of the clarity of detail and the range of the radiation causing the image before any collapse of the linen cloth. The minor earthquake described in the Gospels is also explained. This gives the answer to the last remaining problem faced by the STURP scientists.”

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi,
The image is not a photograph in a conventional sense. Early colour photographs, 1870’s, used sensitising dyes. In the 1930’s kodak invented Kodachrome based on photosensitive emulsions.

The image on the shroud is formed on the cellulose structure of the flax itself, which makes the linen.
There are no pigments, dyes or photosensitive emulsions on the shroud, chemical photographs themselves are unstable and would probably not survive 2000 years.
The image is not coloured, it has the colour of oxidized flax - a light straw colour. The colour of the mans eyes could not be known, not least because his eyes appear to be closed and had coins on them.

Below is an accurate image possible because of the three dimensional nature of the images formation:

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii228/DODO2/image.jpg

The weave density of linen cloth is an average of a little over thirty-five threads per centimeter.
Linen threads are comprised of hundreds of fibres in maybe a 2 mm thread diameter.
Linen fibres contain fibrils which have an average 12-16 micrometers in diameter.
Fibrils are 15 microns or 15/1000 of a milimeter in diameter…
Sable hairs, one of the finest hairs used in water colour brushes are 0.15 mm.
A paint brush works by capillary action between the hairs of the brush. So at least several hairs would be needed to make a brush work.
Sable hair is 100 times the diameter of a linen fibril.
The image on the shroud is formed by some process of oxidization of the cellulose on the surface of the linen fibrils.
Only the surface of the linen fibril was oxidized.
Not possible to paint an oxidizing liquid onto the surface of the fibrils.

In any event, a liquid applied to the linen thread would immediately soak into the cloth by the same capillary action resulting in all the fibrils throughout the thread being oxidized all over their surfaces.
Wherever a fibre crosses an underlying one the underlying fibre is unaffected.
The colour change never affects more than one or two fibrils in depth, so that whatever caused the change can only have had very little depth of penetration. There are no obvious differences in the straw-yellow shade. It is merely the number of fibrils coloured that determine the intensity of the image.
Another observation of considerable significance is that when blood was, or had been, present over the fibres, it also protected the underlying fibres from whatever caused the image. This means that the blood must have been in place before the image was formed.

“One thing we can say is that the illumination for the formation of the image would seem to have come from the body. It had a limited range and was non- directional. The closer the material was to the surface of the body, the stronger the image. At a distance greater than about 2 inches or 4 centimetres, no image was produced. That is the range in air of alpha particles, mesons, and other products of nuclear disintegration. Further, these are particles whose range in solids is very small. If nuclear disintegration was the source of the illumination, then all the observations - including those recorded in the Gospels - would fall into place.”

“If the image on the Shroud was caused by a nuclear disintegration of the atoms in the body, we can say that the image was primarily due to the short range particles, and that any changes that took place in the main part of the Shroud were due to neutrons and gamma radiation.
In the areas affected by the high-energy short-range particles the effect was quite different. With molecular chains shortened and ordered regions disrupted, the mechanical strength would be greatly reduced - that is, the material would become friable, something that Dr. Adler and Dr. Heller observed.
Suggest a very high radiation dose, more than 120,000 Mrad and less than 680,000 Mrad, but probably nearer the latter.
The appearance of the image and the properties of the linen of the Shroud can thus be explained if the cause was the nuclear disintegration of the atoms in the body. With such a disintegration - a minor nuclear explosion - light and energy would also be produced. In the body the main elements involved would be carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen, together with smaller quantities of calcium, phosphorus and sulphur. These all have lower molecular weights, and a lower proportion of internal energy, so that the energy liberated would be far less than that from the disintegration of the heavy atoms in nuclear weapons. It would still be sufficient to move the stone at the entrance to the tomb, and to make the guards think that there had been an earthquake.
An instantaneous disintegration of the nuclei of the atoms in the body would account for the formation of the image, detail by detail, and the good state of preservation of the linen of the Shroud. It would seem to be the only mechanism whereby the straw-yellow colour could be produced - and the lemon-yellow colour of the serum deposits. It would have to be instantaneous to account for the well-defined image, in terms of the clarity of detail and the range of the radiation causing the image before any collapse of the linen cloth. The minor earthquake described in the Gospels is also explained. This gives the answer to the last remaining problem faced by the STURP scientists.”

Hi

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[puzzleannie]

wrong, Jesus Christ Incarnate is the greatest gift to mankind. If your reverence for his icon outweighs your reverence for his Person, there is a severe imbalance in your spiritual life which you should address with your confessor. If your faith in Jesus rests in the science surrounding the Shroud, it is weak, fragile and baseless, and you would do well to contemplate Jesus in the Eucharist and pray for stronger faith.

 

[paarsurrey]

wrong, Jesus Christ Incarnate is the greatest gift to mankind. If your reverence for his icon outweighs your reverence for his Person, there is a severe imbalance in your spiritual life which you should address with your confessor. If your faith in Jesus rests in the science surrounding the Shroud, it is weak, fragile and baseless, and you would do well to contemplate Jesus in the Eucharist and pray for stronger faith.

Hi

I don’t agree with you.

As the RevealedBooks are Word of GodAllahYHWH, the same way scientific laws inherent in the universe are Actions of GodAllahYHWH; if understood correctly both don’t have and should not have any contradictions in them. A believer , if one is a true believer, must believe in both as the originator or Creater is the same. This is very reasonable and logical, I think.

Thanks

 

[pismopal]

Church Says Shroud of Turin Isn’t Authentic

New York Times, October 14, 1988

“The Roman Catholic Church announced today that the Shroud of Turin, venerated by millions of Christians over the centuries as the burial cloth of Jesus, could not be authentic because new scientific tests show that the linen dates from the Middle Ages.”

"Cardinal Ballestrero said that when Pope John Paul II was informed of the results, his response was, ‘‘Publish it.’’ "

I don’t accept that “quote” from the Church as authentic and that statement has nothing to do with you. If you read that somewhere thats fine but I consider it suspect. Even if the statement was issued it would have been very premature. The primary scientific reason for arrival at the conclusion that the Shroud was from the middle ages was carbon dating. Subsequent exams and information revealed that the carbon dating was skewed because of the Shroud’s exposure to fire which changes carbon dating results. My faith does not rest on the Shroud’s authenticity but I happen to believe that it is authentic. If it is not…more questions are raised than can be explained by scientists. If the image was not connected with the ascension of Christ then what??? A forgery that cannot be duplicated by forensic examiners using all the technology available to science? I find this almost laughable. Think about it.

 

[Stephen0]

Thanks Paarsurrey and Thing. Paarsurrey, you put it beautifully concerning what Catholics can believe concerning the roles of science and faith and how they should work together. Though as a Catholic believer I do not put my faith in this relic, I still find it very supportive in feeling close to Jesus just as I do in any sacrimental that I might use like an a cross or an icon. Remember that the church has always considered that scientific truth and faith are twins. At the time of the Reformation this openess to the sciences really hurt the church when science was used on what I believe is called the “Will of Constantine” in which Constantine was suppose to have granted the emergent Church a certain amount of temporal power and property. However, the scientific examination of the document’s language proved that it was a later forgery. To some of the reformers, this only proved that you didn’t need to go through the Church to find the truth and caused some to leave due to the sin of the original forger. However, the Church has continued to hold sciencific examination as one of the avenues to the ultimate truths.
Paarsurrey, I believe that Thing’s above statement on the Shroud is much better than my answer would have been. Just think of the Shroud as a supia or black and white photo. Hey, color photography hadn’t been invented yet so Jesus was forced to work with Nuclear energy instead.
Thing thanks for the scientific article which I will now print out and use as a reference.

 

[Thing]

wrong, Jesus Christ Incarnate is the greatest gift to mankind. If your reverence for his icon outweighs your reverence for his Person, there is a severe imbalance in your spiritual life which you should address with your confessor. If your faith in Jesus rests in the science surrounding the Shroud, it is weak, fragile and baseless, and you would do well to contemplate Jesus in the Eucharist and pray for stronger faith.

Hi, puzzleannie, its true re. the thread title that the greatest gift is the Power that could could produce something like the shroud. And that would leave it to us.
Whilst there is little need to preach to the converted or to cure the healthy, not everyone is so easily approachable & I sometimes see the Shroud as a type of letter. Letters are addressed to the person, and this letter is unique in that it seems to address people in a scientific age in which many elements of the letter are only visible.
In enlightened, scientific, & agnostic times people demand more and are more knowledgably critical. I think the Shroud is another mystery or focal point like the lives of the saints, and can play a significant role in drawing in interest or in kick-starting the beginnings of someones faith.

 

[1234]

No disrespect here, but you are a Buddhist and Buddha did not die for our sins. Mohammed did not die for our sins. Jesus died for our sins. I don’t expect non-Catholics here to believe anything, especially ones that don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah.

…so quite pushing the Shroud.

 

[paarsurrey]

Thanks Paarsurrey and Thing. Paarsurrey, you put it beautifully concerning what Catholics can believe concerning the roles of science and faith and how they should work together.

Hi

Thanks for your appreciation. Revealed Religions, if they want to satisfy the man in the 21st century, should work closely on these lines, in my opinion.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

I was surfing thorough wikipedia, some friends would find the following website as interesting:

“Pictures of Jesus
Fake or real, the pictures on the Shroud of Turin are pictures of Jesus. If the Shroud is fake, then the artist intended us to believe that the pictures are pictures of Jesus. If the Shroud is real, and the pictures are the product of a natural phenomenon or a miracle, then they are almost certainly pictures of Jesus.”
This is the first paragraph, the website is:
shroudstory.com/art.htm

Thanks

 

[Linda_Marie]

Carbon dating of Shroud was inconclusive, Oxford scientist says

Feb. 6, 2008
<…>
In 1988, three groups of scientists made an attempt to use radio-carbon dating techniques to determine the age of the Shroud, concluding that the linen cloth could only date to the middle ages and not to the first century near east.
<…>
That conclusion, however, has not halted the debate over the origin of the Shroud, although Church officials have declined to allow the fragile cloth to be so closely examined since then. In 2005 a second analysis indicated that the cloth sample used by the 1988 teams had been taken from a part of the Shroud that was not part of the original cloth.

The Shroud suffered damage in a fire in the Middle Ages and parts of it were rewoven in an attempt to repair the damage, or at least to try to keep it from being further damaged. It appears the carbon dating sample was taken from a rewoven section.

ANALYSIS OF THE CARBON 14 DATING: WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG

January 20, 2005 article in the scholarly, peer-reviewed scientific journal Thermochimica Acta (Volume 425, pages 189-194, by Raymond N. Rogers, Los Alamos National Laboratory, University of California) makes it perfectly clear: the carbon 14 dating sample cut from the Shroud in 1988 was not valid. In fact, the Shroud is much older than the carbon 14 tests suggested.

There is another cloth, the Sudarium of Oviedo, which is reputed to be the head covering cloth that was rolled up in the corner of the tomb, separate from the rest. It also has an image and blood stains, just like the Shroud.

In 1999, Mark Guscin, a member of the multidisciplinary Investigation Team of the Centro Español de Sindonología, issued a detailed forensic and historical report entitled, “Recent Historical Investigations on the Sudarium of Oviedo.” Guscin’s report detailed recent findings of the history, forensic pathology, blood chemistry, and stain patterns on the Sudarium. His conclusion: the Sudarium and the Shroud of Turin had been used to cover the same injured head at closely different times.
<…>
The blood (stain symmetry, type and other indicators) on the Sudarium matches the blood on the Shroud.

shroudstory.com/faq-sudarium.htm

This is the home site which has a lot of information on the Shroud.
Shroud of Turin Story

The problem with things like this is that no evidence will convince someone who is determined not to believe, especially considering how many so-called relics were forged. This is also why one should not base their faith on the existence and/or authenticity of a relic. But, it could get someone thinking about it, interest them to check it out. It may not convince everyone of the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Christ, but it may lead some to the Truth.

 

[Righteousone]

…so quite pushing the Shroud.

Hello,
Just got back from Las Vegas…anyway, still the same here…
I will push it and push it to the best that I can. For I believe the shroud of Turin to be the burial cloth, and the face of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. This gift He left behind for all the world to believe, and the sceptics to keep scratching their heads…(is it? Or isn’t it?) Well, it is people, wake up and smell the Christ who is leaving signs everywhere.

 

[Thing]

Hi

I was surfing thorough wikipedia, some friends would find the following website as interesting:

“Pictures of Jesus
Fake or real, the pictures on the Shroud of Turin are pictures of Jesus. If the Shroud is fake, then the artist intended us to believe that the pictures are pictures of Jesus. If the Shroud is real, and the pictures are the product of a natural phenomenon or a miracle, then they are almost certainly pictures of Jesus.”
This is the first paragraph, the website is:
shroudstory.com/art.htm

Thanks

Interesting article - however, in the end they said it was physically impossible for vapours to form that particular image.

 

[Stephen0]

Thanks Paarsurrey for the above websites for the additional information on the Shroud and related topics. For a person of another faith you have gone to a lot of trouble to gather this information. By the way if you found this series of articles on the Shroud interesting, you may be interested in googling “The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe” and other articles on this Mexican miracle concerning Jesus’s mother. The history of this heavenly occurance reads like a good novel, but is well documented as truely happening. May truth and your angel guide you.

 

[1234]

There’s a “Secrets of the Dead” episode on the shroud coming up in my area which I intend to watch. There are several different documentaries on the shroud available thru Netflix, the most recent from 2000. The SoftheD episode is probably more recent.

Tho’ “Secrets…” sounds as if it would be somewhat superficial and sensationalized, in reality it is quite a good science program and is usually worth watching.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The greatest gift IN THIS CENTURY…geez…you people take things so literal here…

##** In your words, the title of the thread is:**

• The Shroud of Turin is the Greatest Gift given to Mankind
  If you would like to explain how that is the same as saying
• The greatest gift IN THIS CENTURY
  - please do. But you did not limit what you said - you made an absolute claim, that:
• The Shroud of Turin is the Greatest Gift given to Mankind
  - with no limitation of any kind. Is a poster to blame for thinking you meant exactly what your title suggested ?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I am unable to link directly to this article, so I paste it in its entirety below. Apologies to the moderators if this is a problem and please delete at your discretion. Thank you.

FWIW - which is probably not much - here’s a link ​

• zenit.org/article-21787?l=english

 

[Righteousone]

##** In your words, the title of the thread is:**

• The Shroud of Turin is the Greatest Gift given to Mankind
  If you would like to explain how that is the same as saying
• The greatest gift IN THIS CENTURY
  - please do. But you did not limit what you said - you made an absolute claim, that:
• The Shroud of Turin is the Greatest Gift given to Mankind
  - with no limitation of any kind. Is a poster to blame for thinking you meant exactly what your title suggested ?

What is your problem?