The Shroud of Turin: What's Your Opinion?

[Hugh_Farey]

Interesting article about the so called “poker holes”

Since the publication of better photos, I think it is now generally recognised that these holes look far more accidental than deliberate. They appear to have been made when the Shroud was folded into quarters, and before the 1534 fire. It is difficult to think that there was any kind of display going on at the time, as the folding would expose only half of Christ’s face, which would be an odd way of showing the image. They do appear to have extraneous material around their edges, which could well be some kind of incense. The idea that they are the result of some kind of ‘trial’ of authenticity lacks credibility - one only has to ask oneself “Did it pass or fail?” Although the little circles on the lid of the tomb in the Pray Codex do have an L-shape, like the holes in the Shroud, the ones on the sarcophagus itself do not. They surround a diagonal line of crosses, which may be a clumsy attempt to draw the line of one corner of the box (there are similar failures of perspective on other drawings of the same scene), but at present I can’t really decide what they are.

 

[Lost4words]

Nobody is able to say, ‘scientifically’ how the image was produced.

Nobody can produce the image exactly as it is seen.

Except for ‘Hugh’. (Lol)

 

[Lost4words]

The shroud is a pure ‘wonder’. Its scientifically unfathomable. No artist could ever produce that image. No paint could produce that image. The ‘image’ is on the very top of the fibres!

Hugh, you cannot explain away the image old friend. Science CANNOT explain how the image was produced or got there.

Only God could have ‘produced’ the shroud.

 

[wkj_123]

No artist could ever produce that image

Yes they can. The image has been recreated once before.

 

[Seagull]

 

[Lost4words]

Link to exact copy?

This one? If so, its been proven be be very much different in ‘Many’ ways:

Stephen Jones’ Take on the Garlaschelli Fake

Stephen Jones at The Shroud of Turin blog has offered us a compelling analysis of the dust up over the latest attempt to reproduce the Shroud of Turin and try to argue from that effort that the Shr…

shroudstory.com

 

[tryphon]

I agree that they are probably the result of an accident. The fact remains that, in my opinion, they can be seen in the Pray Codex, making the shroud older than what the C14 tests “proved”.

 

[wkj_123]

Sure that’s a great start. All the tools needed to create a photographic negative image we’re available in midevil times.

 

[Hugh_Farey]

The fact remains that, in my opinion, they can be seen in the Pray Codex, making the shroud older than what the C14 tests “proved”.

Fair enough. I can’t agree though.

 

[Lost4words]

Lol…grasping at straws now! Lol

 

[wkj_123]

Lol…grasping at straws now! Lol

I’m sorry I’m not following you. Are you saying the technique to produce a negative image didn’t exist in midevil times?

 

[wkj_123]

Lol nice. One thing that doesn’t seem to get touched on much(maybe it has and I didn’t see it) is the anotomical porportions. How would you explain Jesus laying like he is with his arms laying where they are?

 

[undead_rat]

undead_rat:

Eight dates were reduced to just four, the two youngest ones being eliminated.

This was untrue when you first mentioned it, and is still untrue now. I explained in detail the procedure, and at one point I thought you understood it, but if not, I don’t think it’s worthwhile going over it again.

Mark Antonacci writes:
"The British Museum and the Arizona laboratory thus combined eight measurements into only four…This combination was not mentioned in the official “NATURE” report. . . "
"…if Arizona’s two youngest ages of 540 and 574 weren’t completely eliminated from the report, this [linear] correlation would have been more obvious. … "

Some one is not telling the truth here. The only science that the skeptics with agendas have to go on in their attacks on the Shroud is the discredited NATURE article. Is it any wonder that they attempt to defend it to the last?

 

[undead_rat]

undead_rat:

Hall dominated the interpretation of the Shroud’s C-14 data, and this data was not shared with any other analyzing institutions.

So you say. The paper published in Nature says: “The results, together with the statistical assessment of the data prepared in the British Museum, were forwarded to Professor Bray of the Istituto di Metrologia ‘G. Colonetti’, Turin, for his comments. He confirmed that the results of the three laboratories were mutually compatible, and that, on the evidence submitted, none of the mean results was questionable.”

Yes, the abridged data was shared, but only after Hall and his minions had made their so-called “assessment.” That Prof. Bray chose not to question the pronouncement of the prestigious British Museum is not surprising.

Wilson says this about your Prof. Hall:
“He relished the opportunity to be judge, jury, and executioner of the Shroud.”

 

[Hugh_Farey]

"The British Museum and the Arizona laboratory thus combined eight measurements into only four…This combination was not mentioned in the official “NATURE” report. . . "
"…if Arizona’s two youngest ages of 540 and 574 weren’t completely eliminated from the report, this [linear] correlation would have been more obvious. … "

Some one is not telling the truth here.

How very acute. The truth is that twelve small pieces of the Shroud were reduced to carbon, and then dated using AMS technology. Each little carbon pellet was run through the machine several times, and a single date for each little piece, with an associated error, was returned to the British Museum. The single date was achieved by averaging all the machine-runs for that sample. There’s nothing wrong with that, although I have agreed that in the light of the subsequent furore, it would be a good idea, if they still exist, for every individual measurement (probably about fifty of them) to be published.

As it happens some of the original sub-measurements have come to light, those of Tucson, as you correctly point out, although you do not seem to realise that even they are averages of a number of tests. These sub-measurements were, very properly, combined in an average, so that each individual piece of cloth was given its own date for comparison with all the others. Combining numbers in an average is certainly not “eliminating” them, it is taking proper account of them, and exactly the same procedure was carried out on all the other little samples as well. Contrary to Antonacci’s remark, this was mentioned in the Nature report, which says: “the results of these independent measurements (Table 1) in each case represent the average of several replicate measurements made during each run”.

Yes, the abridged data was shared, but only after Hall and his minions had made their so-called “assessment.” That Prof. Bray chose not to question the pronouncement of the prestigious British Museum is not surprising.

You cannot possibly know that, and I don’t believe it to be true. Your characterisation of Prof. Bray, in the absence of any evidence, is slander.

 

[undead_rat]

Lol nice. One thing that doesn’t seem to get touched on much(maybe it has and I didn’t see it) is the anotomical porportions. How would you explain Jesus laying like he is with his arms laying where they are?

See Chapter 11, THE HISTORICALLY CONSISTENT HYPOTHESIS, How the Body Images Were Encoded, starting on page 233 of TEST THE SHROUD.

Page 248:
“Only the Historically Consistent Hypothesis can explain the Shroud’s full-length body images, including all of their primary and secondary body image features; its skeletal features; its outer side discoloration at the hands and face; its possible coin and flower images; its excellent condition; its aberrant C-14 dating; and the still-red color of its blood marks.”

 

[Lost4words]

No such time in history.

Medieval was a time in history though. Lol

 

[undead_rat]

From TEST THE SHROUD:

Eiminating STURP was the Primary Focus
“Over the course of nine years, Gove reveals how he, with the help of Michael Tite . . .was able was able to first eliminate STURP . . .”
“One tactic that Gove used to eliminate STURP from playing any role with the Shroud was through his influence with Prof Carlos Chagas, the president of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences . . .”
“Unknown to STURP, Gove wrote Chagas a number of falsehoods about STURP’s alleged religious zeal and military mind set even questioning their sources of support. Gove freely admits while writing to Chagas, ‘I stated that almost every aspect of the STURP organization was distasteful. . .’ even comparing STURP to the Spanish Inquisition.”
“Chargas, . . . evidently belived Gove’s many lies for he heeded every request by Gove to try to eliminate STURP from playing any role in future testing of the Shroud.”

“Whenever it appeared that the authorities in Turin had agreed to STURP’s wide range of scientific tests . . Gove could get Chagas . … to join him in changing the entire focus . . .to . . .petty matters . . .”
“Chagas followed Gove’s incredulous advice not to invite any STURP members to the [finalization of proposed testing] meeting, while inviting the directors and scientists from the radiocarbon dating laboratories.”

“In the past Gove had threatened that the carbon dating laboratories would withdraw . . .,this time he guaranteed their withdrawal ‘if STURP participates in the carbon dating enterprise in any way.’”

“Dr. Gonella . . .said of the directors [of the C-14 laboraties]:
‘They even badgered Rome, bringing pressure to bear so that Turin would have to accept their conditions. Through the intervention of Professor Chagas . . .they set aside the undersigned so that they could do whatever they wanted.’”

 

[wkj_123]

You don’t answer my question, but instead critique spelling?

 

[wkj_123]

Only the Historically Consistent Hypothesis can explain the Shroud’s full-length body images, including all of their primary and secondary body image features; its skeletal features; its outer side discoloration at the hands and face; its possible coin and flower images; its excellent condition; its aberrant C-14 dating; and the still-red color of its blood marks.”

Unfortunately for you no, the only thing that can explain the abnormal body shape is a forgery. The shoulder dislocation theory just doesn’t hold up nor does the rigamortis theory. If Jesus had a brain the size of a homo erectus, and arms swinging to his knees then maybe you have a case. Occams razor my friend.