The Shroud of Turin

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Hello Hugh,

thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

do you have comments regarding the radiocarbon testing being such that the areas closest to the main body of the shroud were dated older than the areas away from the body to such an extent that it failed the mathematically statistical test used to judge the acceptability of radio-carbon dating? .

Also do you have comments regarding Rogers finding cotton spliced into the linen and Rogers finding his sample differed from the main body of the shroud regarding levels of alizarin and alum?

Also do you have any comments regarding Fanti’s non mechanical testing which produced dating results well before the Middle Ages?

Also could you please elaborate on why Rogers commentary on the fire with regards to the low heat conductivity of linen and the stark contrast between scorched and unblemished parts of the shroud is “not convincing”.

Thanks and Regards.
 
Hello again Hugh,

do you also have any data on the quantity of heat or bending required to significantly change the measured strength of linen?

Thanks again.
 
Hi abucs,
  1. The Chronological Gradient. Each of the three laboratories divided its sample into sub-samples, so that in the end twelve pieces of cloth were individually dated. In a well explained statistical article, Riani, Atkinson et al showed how the twelve dates indicated a chronological gradient along the sample. I think this is probably reliable. However:
a) A chronological gradient does not indicate that the Shroud is not medieval, nor that the dates found were incorrect. Quite the reverse, as a gradient may be more explicable than randomly distributed figures. The 14th century finding is not in any way refuted by the statistical analysis, nor is there any “the mathematically statistical test used to judge the acceptability of radio-carbon dating.”

b) Attempts to show that surface contamination were responsible for the chronological gradient foundered when it was shown that the further away from the corner (and therefore perhaps the less contaminated the Shroud), the younger the date, implying that contamination made the Shroud appear older, not younger, than it really is. One way in which that could be possible would be if the contamination contained mineral oil, or some other compound containing carbon with no C14 in it all. Such contamination would have to be such that it was not removed by the cleaning processes carried out by the labs prior to testing.

c) There has been speculation that some unknown physics resulting from the Resurrection itself may have altered the C14 content of the cloth, along a gradient related to the distance from the body. There is no justification for such speculation, and anyway, if the Shroud is the result of supernatural intervention, then conventional scientific investigation is pointless.
  1. Cotton in, or on, the Shroud. It is apparent that cotton fibres occur all over the Shroud, as observed by McCrone, Heller and Adler, Lucotte, Raes, and anybody else who has looked at the samples derived from it. The discussion centres around how much cotton there is, and whether it is merely surface contamination, from any age, or interwoven into the threads of the Shroud. The STuRP team, of course, could only observe fibres on sticky tapes, and were therefore unable to say where their observed cotton came from, while a few researchers, such as Rogers, Heimburger and Fanti, could study thread fragments from the Raes or radiocarbon samples. However, since they culd not compare their threads against threads from the rest of the Shroud, they could not say howe typical they were. Estimations of the amount of cotton vary hugely, from 5% (Fanti) to 100% (Villarreal), so that no definite conclusions can be drawn from these observations. Furthermore, the term “spliced” is extremely misleading. A splice suggests an interweaving of individual strands of two pieces of thread, for which there is no evidence, either scientific or historical, on the Shroud. There are two popular photographs of these pieces of thread, each only a few millimetres long, which authenticists frequently use to justify the idea of ‘splicing’. One simply shows a single piece of thread, which varies slightly in colour and texture along its length, as artefacts of the lighting and the handling of the thread. It is thus claimed that the two ends must be made of different materials, which is unjustified. The other is of two pieces of thread separated, and a blob of some sort of gum, which appears to have held them together. The two pieces are not unravelled, so there is no indication of a true ‘splice’ here, and I do not think the blob of gum was sufficient to have given the glued join any tensile strength at all. This was the thread fragment of which Robert Villarrreal identified both ends as being of cotton, which was rather brushed under the carpet, as it was hoped he could show that it was a cotton/linen join.
As this post is getting too long, I’ll discuss your subsequent points in a subsequent post!
 
abuc’s previous queries continued…
  1. Fanti’s non-mechanical testing. Giulio Fanti used the same process (making a calibration curve, getting results from the Shroud, using them to derive a date) for his spectrographic investigations, again hoping that age by itself (principally oxidation) would have a proportional relation to his spectrographs. The results from both control materials and the Shroud had huge degrees of uncertainty, such that his final conclusions for the Shroud, to a 68% reliability, had ranges of between 800 to 1000 years. What’s more, although two of these ranges did cover the year 1AD, one of them dated from about 1100BC to 300BC. This was rather arbitrarily ‘corrected’ by 400 years, ostensibly to account for any ‘artificial’ aging due to the 1532 fire. Perhaps significantly, in his two published papers on this new method of dating fabrics (“Multi-parametric micro-mechanical dating of single fibers coming from ancient flax textiles” and “Non-destructive dating of ancient flax textiles by means of vibrational spectroscopy”) the Shroud doe not feature at all.
  2. Rogers’s ideas about temperature gradients during the 1532 fire. This is what he wrote: “ The fire of 1532 could not have greatly affected the vanillin content of lignin in all parts of the shroud equally. The thermal conductivity of linen is very low, 2.1 x 10-4 cal cm-1 s -1 °C -1; therefore, the unscorched parts of the folded cloth could not have become very hot. The temperature gradient through the cloth in the reliquary should have been very steep, and the cloth’s center would not have heated at all in the time available. The rapid change in color from black to white at the margins of the scorches illustrates this fact.” This is not very scientific. While it is true that there was probably a temperature gradient between the outside and the inside of the folded cloth, the thermal conductivity of linen is a very poor indicator of what that gradient might be, given the air trapped between the folds, convection currents set up by the temperature gradient, the effect of the hole which was driven right through the cloth, the rate of cooling of heat from inside the folds, and ignorance about what the outside temperature was anyway and for how long it was maintained. The sharpish boundaries between the coloured and uncoloured areas around the burn holes may be due to the low thermal conductivity of linen, but to extrapolate that idea to the whole folded bundle is unwarranted.
  3. Your second post. No, I have no data on the effect of heating or bending on the mechanical strength of linen fibres, except that if I want to tear a piece of paper along a given line, it is efficacious to fold it over along the line before doing so!
 
thanks Hugh,

give me a couple of days to digest and respond if you are still around.

Regards.
 
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