The sign on God's desk says:

[Hitetlen]

frogman80:

Daily, ask “God If you exist, let it be known to me.” It would take but one moments thought. If you are sincere, it will happen.

Why daily? I am asking him now, with all sincerety. Nothing happens.

 

[frogman80]

Hitetlen:

Why daily? I am asking him now, with all sincerety. Nothing happens.

Why daily? I dunno… .sometimes I find that repeatedly asking for a question to be answered either:

1. gets me an answer
2. helps me to realize that I am asking the wrong question.

I do not believe a daily exercise of this nature would hurt you any… do you?

 

[Della]

Hitetlen:

Why daily? I am asking him now, with all sincerety. Nothing happens.

Really? You remind me of the person in the floods in New Orleans sitting on a housetop praying for God to rescue him. A boat comes along but he refuses to get in. Then a helicopter, but he again refuses to get on board. After a few days he dies of dehydration. At the pearly gates he demands of St. Peter why God didn’t rescue him and St. Peter replied, “We sent you a boat and a helicopter, what more did you want?”

God is speaking to you through us, through his Church, through creation, through the Christmas Season we are about to enter and in a thousand other ways, including the love of family and friends. What more do you want?

 

[Hitetlen]

Della:

Really? You remind me of the person in the floods in New Orleans sitting on a housetop praying for God to rescue him. A boat comes along but he refuses to get in. Then a helicopter, but he again refuses to get on board. After a few days he dies of dehydration. At the pearly gates he demands of St. Peter why God didn’t rescue him and St. Peter replied, “We sent you a boat and a helicopter, what more did you want?”

Yes, that is an excellent joke, too bad I already heard it.

Della:

God is speaking to you through us, through his Church, through creation, through the Christmas Season we are about to enter and in a thousand other ways, including the love of family and friends. What more do you want?

None of these are facts, they are allegories. Facts are hard things, they cannot be ignored. What would you say if I asserted that God speaks through me and says: “Throw away your faith and depend on your reason. I gave you reason, why do you waste it?” Would you accept that God speaks through me, like the donkey of Baalam? Or would you need some further proof?

 

[Della]

Originally Posted by Della
God is speaking to you through us, through his Church, through creation, through the Christmas Season we are about to enter and in a thousand other ways, including the love of family and friends. What more do you want?

None of these are facts, they are allegories. Facts are hard things, they cannot be ignored. What would you say if I asserted that God speaks through me and says: “Throw away your faith and depend on your reason. I gave you reason, why do you waste it?” Would you accept that God speaks through me, like the donkey of Baalam? Or would you need some further proof?

None of these are proof enough for you, then. You doubt your own senses and your own heart in these matters? Now I truly do feel sorry for you.

 

[frogman80]

Hitetlen:

A just punishment is one that is commensurate to the deed (3 in your list). If a just punishment is meted out, that precludes mercy, which would allow to go the deed unpunished (1 in your list). They contradict each other.

A man robs someone. The man begs mercy from a judge. The judge mercifully decides to let the man go free for punishment, but justly decides that the person robbed needs to be repaid.
A man robs someone. The man refuses to beg mercy. The judge sentences him to his punishment of jail and a fine. The judge also states that the person robbed must be repaid.

There is no sin our God will not forgive, but we must desire that mercy from him. Although the punishment for our sins is forgiven, we still must repay the effects of our sin. Those who for some reason do not desire mercy… mercy is not upon them.

What about the case where a person does not desire mercy? Do you think it would be just or merciful to force it upon them?

 

[Hitetlen]

Della:

None of these are proof enough for you, then. You doubt your own senses and your own heart in these matters? Now I truly do feel sorry for you.

Please don’t feel sorry. That would be condescending and therefore unworthy of you. I do not doubt my senses and my heart only pumps blood. My senses cannot sense the supernatural, and neither can yours.

Do you doubt that God actually spoke through me? I guess you did. The question is why?

 

[frogman80]

Della:

None of these are proof enough for you, then. You doubt your own senses and your own heart in these matters? Now I truly do feel sorry for you.

Della,

I believe Hitetlen is more genuine than you give him credit for. You and I know that God will answer a knock at the door, and even if Hitetlen had the thickest of heads… He could get though.

He is here taking the time to figure out what it is we really believe isn’t he?

 

[Hitetlen]

frogman80:

A man robs someone. The man begs mercy from a judge. The judge mercifully decides to let the man go free for punishment, but justly decides that the person robbed needs to be repaid.
A man robs someone. The man refuses to beg mercy. The judge sentences him to his punishment of jail and a fine. The judge also states that the person robbed must be repaid.

There is no sin our God will not forgive, but we must desire that mercy from him. Although the punishment for our sins is forgiven, we still must repay the effects of our sin. Those who for some reason do not desire mercy… mercy is not upon them.

What about the case where a person does not desire mercy? Do you think it would be just or merciful to force it upon them?

Well said, but you missed something. The judge was once “just”, another time “merciful”, not both at the same time.

Unfortunately just desiring and asking for “mercy” is not enough. One must serve the “judge”, submit to his will. That is not mercy, unlike the judge in your example who just did it, without any strings attached. Big difference!

 

[frogman80]

Hitetlen:

Well said, but you missed something. The judge was once “just”, another time “merciful”, not both at the same time.

Unfortunately just desiring and asking for “mercy” is not enough. One must serve the “judge”, submit to his will. That is not mercy, unlike the judge in your example who just did it, without any strings attached. Big difference!

It is probably my fault in the way I have used the word… but the act of being just does not always denote punishment. Being "just” to a person: to give a person at least what they deserve.

You are right… just asking isn’t enough. A person needs to show “sorrow” for the act that requires the mercy… otherwise it would not be prudent to show mercy. An act of mercy to someone who did not desire it, or who was not sorry for the action would do more harm than good.

 

[Hitetlen]

frogman80:

It is probably my fault in the way I have used the word… but the act of being just does not always denote punishment. Being "just” to a person: to give a person at least what they deserve.

That is true, but I specifically referred to this concept in conjuction with your statement, that the punishment in hell is always “just”.

 

[LSK]

Hitetlen:

I will try to answer to your posts individually, but let me just say one very important argument:

If, as you say,

1. the existence of free will INVARIABLY leads to the existence of evil, and
2. the definition of free will MUST include the ability to choose evil, and
3. the lack of DESIRE to commit evil is insufficient to create real free will, and
4. there will be no evil in heaven,
   then
   (corollary) there will be no free will in heaven.

We all shall be little automatons, singing and praising the Big Automaton (aka God), who has to act according to his nature (which contains no evil, so sin) - therefore has no free will.

Are you really sure, that this is the picture you want to paint about heaven and God? Just a gramaphone with a record being played over and over again, where the only “choice” is to select “Hymn A” or “Hosanna B” or “Praise C”?

Your arguments are too trite…

the existence of free will does not necessarily have to lead to evil. It can, but it does not invariably lead to it. The definition of free will does not HAVE to include the ability to choose evil, it includes the opportunity to choose evil - that is very different.

Heaven is different from earth…the beatific vision is perfection…perfection would not mean being an automaton…it would mean being perfected…because it would have been our free choices that got us there…

 

[BlindSheep]

Hatred? I don’t hate God, I simply do not believe that such a being exists. And I have very good reasons to do so. If God would manifest himself to me, I would KNOW that he exists (and I would need no faith!). If he made it plain (in sufficient detail) what his requirements are, I would follow (or not follow) them. (For example I would refuse to commit genocide just because God ordered me). If I had the knowledge, I could make my choice based upon information, not hearsay.

He chose not to do either one of these, therefore he removed himself from consideration. He may exist or he may not. He may have some wishes, or he may not. Irrelevant to our existence. If someone does good in this existence, he is a good person. If someone does evil in this existence, he is evil. We cannot postulate a hypothetical continuation of the “game of life” and make the evaluation of our current actions dependent on this continuation.

I did not accuse you of hating God, though it is possible that you hate God insofar as you know Him. I can’t read your mind. I was referring to the souls and angels in hell. I don’t know if this includes you or not (I hope it does not).
God has revealed Himself to man, and He has also revealed His requirements, as I think you are well aware. Your doubts may be based only on uncertainty about the accuracy of the information handed down from others, but your posts lead me to believe it is something more. You say that if God revealed Himself to you, you might judge Him as being evil and choose to disobey Him anyway. In spite of all our efforts to help you understand, you insist on veiwing God as a tyrant and a bully, and accusing Him of “murder” Believing our lives belong to us, you think we have the right to take our own lives, and God does not. We believe the reverse. Did you create yourself? Your life is not yours or mine to end; it belongs to God. You set yourself up as the judge of God’s goodness. Where do you think your own sense of morality comes from? What authority is it based upon? I spoke of those who hate God, who would rather endure an eternity alone than be with Him, because they cannot accept that they themselves are not God. I cannot know if this is you, but you know. You have been told several times already that God forgives invincible ignorance, but know, too, that God sees through false unbelief.

 

[BlindSheep]

How can justice and mercy coexist? This is how.

 

[rocklobster]

BlindSheep:

I did not accuse you of hating God, though it is possible that you hate God insofar as you know Him. I can’t read your mind. I was referring to the souls and angels in hell. I don’t know if this includes you or not (I hope it does not).
God has revealed Himself to man, and He has also revealed His requirements, as I think you are well aware. Your doubts may be based only on uncertainty about the accuracy of the information handed down from others, but your posts lead me to believe it is something more. You say that if God revealed Himself to you, you might judge Him as being evil and choose to disobey Him anyway. In spite of all our efforts to help you understand, you insist on veiwing God as a tyrant and a bully, and accusing Him of “murder” Believing our lives belong to us, you think we have the right to take our own lives, and God does not. We believe the reverse. Did you create yourself? Your life is not yours or mine to end; it belongs to God. You set yourself up as the judge of God’s goodness. Where do you think your own sense of morality comes from? What authority is it based upon? I spoke of those who hate God, who would rather endure an eternity alone than be with Him, because they cannot accept that they themselves are not God. I cannot know if this is you, but you know. You have been told several times already that God forgives invincible ignorance, but know, too, that God sees through false unbelief.

He does reveal himself. Look outside at sunrise and sunset!