The sin-heap problem

[aquohn]

Alright, essentially, this is a relative o the heap paradox, except applied to what is considered a sin.

If I trawl to the internet for two hours watching pornographic clips to sate my lust, I am definitely commiting a sin, yes? But if the disordered urge to do so suddenly comes upon me, I am obviously not sinning, since I can’t make a choice here, right? But the problems pop up in-between these two clear-cut cases. Let’s say the urge comes upon me, and I type ‘porn’ into Google (take my word for it; it works). Then let’s go further. I press enter. Then I click ‘Images’. Then I click ‘Videos’. At what point in this chain is it considered watching pornography? Essentially, what is the component required to convert something from an impulse into a sin?

Or how about this other example: I am a policeman viewing a clip to determine whether in contains child pornography. Neccessarily, said clip is erotic. Certainly this is not a sin, if undertaken solely for the purpose of catching a pedophile, but what if, halfway through, I lapse for a second into the porn-watching mindset? Two seconds? when does it become a sin? Or does the mere fact of slipping into the pleasure-gaining, porn-watcher mindset make it a sin?

 

[fons_vitae]

I think a lot would depend on if you tried to resist at any point…

 

[Aeden]

The key here is intent. With the policeman example, as long as his intent is catching a criminal, he probably isn’t sinning. Personally, I wouldn’t watch the clips.or whatever, I’d let somebody else do it, but the key is still intent.

 

[JRKH]

Alright, essentially, this is a relative o the heap paradox, except applied to what is considered a sin.

If I trawl to the internet for two hours watching pornographic clips to sate my lust, I am definitely committing a sin, yes?

Yes.

But if the disordered urge to do so suddenly comes upon me, I am obviously not sinning, since I can’t make a choice here, right?

Sounds OK so far…I am assuming that you do not wish to give in to the sin.

But the problems pop up in-between these two clear-cut cases. Let’s say the urge comes upon me, and I type ‘porn’ into Google (take my word for it; it works).

You sinned as soon as you decided to type in the word. That is, you sin as soon as you consciously pass from, “unwanted intrusive thought” to “Thought that I will entertain and pursue”. The actions follow from the conscious decision to accept and pursue the thought.

Then let’s go further. I press enter. Then I click ‘Images’. Then I click ‘Videos’. At what point in this chain is it considered watching pornography? Essentially, what is the component required to convert something from an impulse into a sin?

Conscious decision.

Or how about this other example: I am a policeman viewing a clip to determine whether in contains child pornography. Necessarily, said clip is erotic. Certainly this is not a sin, if undertaken solely for the purpose of catching a pedophile, but what if, halfway through, I lapse for a second into the porn-watching mindset? Two seconds? when does it become a sin? Or does the mere fact of slipping into the pleasure-gaining, porn-watcher mindset make it a sin?

Same as above - when it passes from “unwanted intrusive thought”, to "thought that I decide to pursue.
If I were assigned such a task - “in the line of duty” - I think the best bet would be to pray fervently both before beginning and continuing to pray throughout the process. Pray that the Good Lord keep you focused on the task at hand - the detached and clinical observation of the film for the sole purpose of evaluating the matters as they relate to the civil and criminal laws of my jurisdiction.

Peace
James

 

[trials]

I’ll just look at your first question.

Sin. As the above poster said, you began a series of events and continued along the path with intent, knowing that the outcome would probably be sinful.

Example.

I go into a house. When I’m there, I find out one of the rooms leads into a brothel. I enter said room. A prostitute offers me her services… see where I’m going with this?

The house is Google. The room is “porn”. We all know it’s there, but deciding to ignore the room or go through the door is where the line is drawn. Worse still, going to Google and typing in the word “porn” is like going into this house and saying “is there a brothel in here somewhere?” It’s not a casual sin, it’s a sin with deliberate intent. Impulsive or not, it’s a sin.

 

[aquohn]

If I were assigned such a task - “in the line of duty” - I think the best bet would be to pray fervently both before beginning and continuing to pray throughout the process. Pray that the Good Lord keep you focused on the task at hand - the detached and clinical observation of the film for the sole purpose of evaluating the matters as they relate to the civil and criminal laws of my jurisdiction.

Yes, of course, but wjhat if I am weak of will and falter momentarily? Is that considered a sin?

 

[fons_vitae]

Yes, of course, but wjhat if I am weak of will and falter momentarily? Is that considered a sin?

As far as I know, your confessor could take that into account and consider it venial… but I guess once you’ve confessed it to clarify your conscience, you’re more focused on receiving absolution and counsel than the relative gravity of the sin…

 

[JRKH]

Yes, of course, but wjhat if I am weak of will and falter momentarily? Is that considered a sin?

Yes it would be considered a sin
When you say that you “falter” then - well it is a “fall”, a “failure” and thus it is slipping into sin. Given the circumstances - probably a venial sin but a sin none the less.

Honestly - and this is no reflection on you…I don’t know what the deal is with trying to find a precise line on matters like this.
Porn and such like are sinful…stay away from them. Do not go near them.
Do the same with ALL sin…Run the other way.

Instead of looking for the line where sin begins, turn and run to Love. Instead of seeking to define the particular ins and outs and parameters of sin, seek to define and expand and live and revel in God’s Love.
The more you do this…The less you will be concerned about when something becomes a sin. One - because you won’t go anywhere near such sin and Two - you will find that, just by understanding Love better, you will know better what constitutes sin…

Peace
James

 

[aquohn]

Well, perhaps a less contentious one would be this: you have a gun. There are gunmen in your house trying to rape and kill your family. Self-defence, Aquinas’ double effect, and all that allow you to shoot down the gunmen to protect your family, and I hardly think God would take you to task for that. But what if you begin to dreive murderous, sadistic pleasure from killing them? What if this becomes merely an outlet for rage and an excuse for murder? What if it only becomes that momentarily?

Yeah, that’s a better example.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Or how about this other example: I am a policeman viewing a clip to determine whether in contains child pornography. Neccessarily, said clip is erotic. Certainly this is not a sin, if undertaken solely for the purpose of catching a pedophile, but what if, halfway through, I lapse for a second into the porn-watching mindset? Two seconds? when does it become a sin? Or does the mere fact of slipping into the pleasure-gaining, porn-watcher mindset make it a sin?

Child porn is so disgusting, that when that unfortunately happens to police officers who have this unpleasant task, it’s usually the result of the work environment and gets into mental health issues. That’s why police aren’t kept too long in those units. I don’t have to watch it, but I do get stuck reading the detailed police reports and hearing the offender’s side of the story. It’s nasty. I used to get the grossest and most disturbing images burned into my brain from reading about it at work. Frequent confession helps to erase the images.

 

[JRKH]

Well, perhaps a less contentious one would be this: you have a gun. There are gunmen in your house trying to rape and kill your family. Self-defence, Aquinas’ double effect, and all that allow you to shoot down the gunmen to protect your family, and I hardly think God would take you to task for that. But what if you begin to derive murderous, sadistic pleasure from killing them? What if this becomes merely an outlet for rage and an excuse for murder? What if it only becomes that momentarily?

Yeah, that’s a better example.

The same principle applies - That which is not from Love is from evil.

Peace
James

 

[THP]

You sinned as soon as you decided to type in the word. That is, you sin as soon as you consciously pass from, “unwanted intrusive thought” to “Thought that I will entertain and pursue”. The actions follow from the conscious decision to accept and pursue the thought.

I disagree, I would say it is when the image comes onto the screen. What if he typed the word, hit enter, but then didn’t like what he was doing and quickly closed the window and didn’t pull it back up. I wouldn’t say that is a sin.

Same with the brothel example, maybe he walked through door, maybe the prostitute approached him, I still don’t see that as a sin. What if he left as soon as the prostitute started approaching because he knew that was wrong. I say no sin. at least no mortal sin. In fact, I think this shows strength of character.

 

[JRKH]

I disagree, I would say it is when the image comes onto the screen. What if he typed the word, hit enter, but then didn’t like what he was doing and quickly closed the window and didn’t pull it back up. I wouldn’t say that is a sin.

Same with the brothel example, maybe he walked through door, maybe the prostitute approached him, I still don’t see that as a sin. What if he left as soon as the prostitute started approaching because he knew that was wrong. I say no sin. at least no mortal sin. In fact, I think this shows strength of character.

Absolutely agree that it shows great character.
But…
I believe that what you are describing above would be more accurately described as the “repentance” of sin rather than the avoidance of sin. That is unless you wish to totally discount Jesus statement about “lusting in your heart” - Or His statement about what comes out of a mans heart is what makes him impure.
I don’t know about you - but I think we should take our King at His word…

Once the decision is made to pursue the sin (knowledge and free choice), one has entered into sin. As to whether it is mortal sin or not…I believe this is best left up to the judgement of the confessor after hearing the particulars.

Peace
James

 

[catharina]

Well, perhaps a less contentious one would be this: you have a gun. There are gunmen in your house trying to rape and kill your family. Self-defence, Aquinas’ double effect, and all that allow you to shoot down the gunmen to protect your family, and I hardly think God would take you to task for that. But what if you begin to dreive murderous, sadistic pleasure from killing them? What if this becomes merely an outlet for rage and an excuse for murder? What if it only becomes that momentarily?

Yeah, that’s a better example.

I just scanned a few of your (few) older posts.
Now I ask regarding your approach to moral challenges: how do you hope
to combine issues ranging from the use of pornography, the interest in
Catholicism and Physics, Quantum Physics and an undefined centrality
to your life of faith (whatever that might be)?

It’s completely baffling to me that you are comfortable having
Fr. Andy Greeley as a spokesperson for Moral Theology in your life.
If you can, will you reflect on your faith life and world view since I’m
unable to find any path that would help others know you?

 

[THP]

Absolutely agree that it shows great character.
But…
I believe that what you are describing above would be more accurately described as the “repentance” of sin rather than the avoidance of sin. That is unless you wish to totally discount Jesus statement about “lusting in your heart” - Or His statement about what comes out of a mans heart is what makes him impure.
I don’t know about you - but I think we should take our King at His word…

Once the decision is made to pursue the sin (knowledge and free choice), one has entered into sin. As to whether it is mortal sin or not…I believe this is best left up to the judgement of the confessor after hearing the particulars.

Peace
James

Even if you saw nothing, that is still considered a sin??? He made the decision to pursue the sin but didn’t follow through on that action

 

[aquohn]

I just scanned a few of your (few) older posts.
Now I ask regarding your approach to moral challenges: how do you hope
to combine issues ranging from the use of pornography, the interest in
Catholicism and Physics, Quantum Physics and an undefined centrality
to your life of faith (whatever that might be)?

It’s completely baffling to me that you are comfortable having
Fr. Andy Greeley as a spokesperson for Moral Theology in your life.
If you can, will you reflect on your faith life and world view since I’m
unable to find any path that would help others know you?

I am not a regular user of this forum; I just come here whenever I have some Catholic-specific reflections that I feel the need to post on. I try not to get too personally invovled with these posts, and yet you claim to have profiled my entire personality based on the handful of posts I have thrown up. That’s like throwing a die twice, seeing a five and six, and concluding that only fives or sixes can come up,

Sheesh.

 

[catharina]

I am not a regular user of this forum; I just come here whenever I have some Catholic-specific reflections that I feel the need to post on. I try not to get too personally invovled with these posts, and yet you claim to have profiled my entire personality based on the handful of posts I have thrown up. That’s like throwing a die twice, seeing a five and six, and concluding that only fives or sixes can come up,

Sheesh.

Dreadfully odd.
I made no claims at all.

 

[JRKH]

Even if you saw nothing, that is still considered a sin???
He made the decision to pursue the sin but didn’t follow through on that action

Caveat:
First let me say Firmly that I am not passing any judgements here. In these matters it is always best to seek the advice and counsel of a good confessor. Hypothetical situations on the internet are just that - hypothetical…

OK - Moving on…
Jesus said:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Mt 5:27-28)
Now - has the man seen the woman naked” - No.
Has he looked at something “pornographic”? - No.
Has he “follow(ed) through on that action”? - No.
What has he done? - He made a conscious decision to “look lustfully” at her.
Conscious decision - That is the key.
When someone asks about intrusive thoughts we tell them these are not sinful until you consciously recognize them and decide whether to keep or reject the sinful thought.

In the matter of the person at the computer who types the word “porn” into a search engine is that typing is not an involuntary or “non-thinking” act. It requires a decisive thought. A decision to type the word With the intent to view porn.
At that point, and assuming they know it is wrong, he (or she) has basically completed the three requirements for Mortal sin…(Grave matter, sufficient knowledge and free consent). Add to that the fact that they have taken concrete action by typing the word…or “walked into the brothel”…
I see nothing here that says it is anything else but sin…

Now - That said, there can be a number of mitigating factors in this. Things that a good confessor and/or spiritual councilor would need to factor in when working with the penitent. For instance…
We know that porn can be an addiction (been there). A person who has an addiction has a decreased culpability…or…
The fact that the person caught themselves quickly and immediately repented…or…
(fill in the blank)…

These factors can lead a counselor to say that the sin was venial and not mortal…but it hardly leads to saying that it was not a sin at all. What is necessary is that the sin be properly understood. That the person not become despondent or give into despair. Rather we need to recognize the sin, confront the sin without trying to hide from is or dismiss it as “not a sin” - repent, take steps to guard against sinning in the future, confess it and obtain even more grace, and move on with courage.

Peace
James

 

[catharina]

Caveat:
First let me say Firmly that I am not passing any judgements here. In these matters it is always best to seek the advice and counsel of a good confessor. Hypothetical situations on the internet are just that - hypothetical…

OK - Moving on…
Jesus said:
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Mt 5:27-28)
Now - has the man seen the woman naked” - No.
Has he looked at something “pornographic”? - No.
Has he “follow(ed) through on that action”? - No.
What has he done? - He made a conscious decision to “look lustfully” at her.
Conscious decision - That is the key.
When someone asks about intrusive thoughts we tell them these are not sinful until you consciously recognize them and decide whether to keep or reject the sinful thought.

In the matter of the person at the computer who types the word “porn” into a search engine is that typing is not an involuntary or “non-thinking” act. It requires a decisive thought. A decision to type the word With the intent to view porn.
At that point, and assuming they know it is wrong, he (or she) has basically completed the three requirements for Mortal sin…(Grave matter, sufficient knowledge and free consent). Add to that the fact that they have taken concrete action by typing the word…or “walked into the brothel”…
I see nothing here that says it is anything else but sin…

Now - That said, there can be a number of mitigating factors in this. Things that a good confessor and/or spiritual councilor would need to factor in when working with the penitent. For instance…
We know that porn can be an addiction (been there). A person who has an addiction has a decreased culpability…or…
The fact that the person caught themselves quickly and immediately repented…or…
(fill in the blank)…

These factors can lead a counselor to say that the sin was venial and not mortal…but it hardly leads to saying that it was not a sin at all. What is necessary is that the sin be properly understood. That the person not become despondent or give into despair. Rather we need to recognize the sin, confront the sin without trying to hide from is or dismiss it as “not a sin” - repent, take steps to guard against sinning in the future, confess it and obtain even more grace, and move on with courage.

Peace
James

IMO, very well-stated.